Is the Cobb, Red Cross Type 1 and Coupon T213 ........

[Joshchisox08]

I'm sure that it has been in other forums and discussed quite a bit on here I'm just looking for a tally here.

Is the Cobb, Red Cross Type 1 and Coupon T213 back considered apart of the unique backs that are part of the t206 collection ??????

Here's all the backs that I've found to be in from other people and articles I've read:

1 Ty Cobb Assorted Factory 33, 4th Dist. NC
2 Old Mill (Southern League) Overprint(s) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
3 Old Mill (Southern League) Brown
4 Lenox (brown) Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
5 Broad Leaf 460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
6 Drum 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
7 Uzit Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
8 Hindu (red) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
9 Lenox (black) Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
10 Red Cross Type 1 **
11 Broad Leaf 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
12 Blank Back N/A N/A
13 Coupon Type 1 T213-1 T213-1
14 Carolina Brights Assorted Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
15 Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC
16 American Beauty 460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC
17 Hindu (brown) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
18 American Beauty (No Frame) 350 N/A
19 Sovereign 460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
20 Cycle 460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
21 Tolstoi Assorted Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
22 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
23 El Principe De Gales Assorted Factory 17, 2nd Dist. VA
24 American Beauty (Frame) 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
25 Sovereign 350 (Apple Green) Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
26 Sweet Caporal (overprint) 350-460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC
27 Cycle 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
28 Old Mill (Southern Leagues) (black) Assorted Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
29 Sovereign 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
30 Sweet Caporal (overprint) 150 Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY
31 Sweet Caporal (overprint) 350-460 Factory 42, 4th Dist. NC
32 Old Mill Assorted Baseball Subjects
33 Polar Bear Assorted Factory 6, 1st Dist. OH
34 Sovereign 350 (Forrest Green) Forrest Green
35 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
36 Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
37 Sweet Caporal 150 Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
38 Piedmont 150 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
39 Piedmont 350-460 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
40 Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA
41 Sweet Caporal 350 Factory 30, 2nd Dist. NY
42 Piedmont 350 Factory 25, 2nd Dist. VA

[atx840]

Not officially but some like to include them in back runs

[wolf441]

The Old Mill (Southern League) Overprint(s) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY were proven to be fakes.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by wolf441

The Old Mill (Southern League) Overprint(s) Assorted Factory 649, 1st Dist. NY were proven to be fakes.

No just the ones in black ink were forgeries, the few examples in "red" are original scrap items with period printing. They should not be considered a back just a printers scrap.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2010/249.html

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

No just the ones in black ink were forgeries, the few examples in "red" are original scrap items with period printing. They should not be considered a back just a printers scrap.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2010/249.html

Thanks for clarifying John! I was only referring to the black ink versions (I had forgot all about the red ones!! )

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

No just the ones in black ink were forgeries, the few examples in "red" are original scrap items with period printing. They should not be considered a back just a printers scrap.

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2010/249.html

Thank you both for that clarification. I'm glad to be learning this stuff. How many of you actually consider there to be 41 backs ?

[wolf441]

I go with 39. I don't consider the T213-1 Coupon (though Ted Z makes a compelling case to include it) and the T215-1 Red Cross as part of the T206 set. I call the Cobb Back a T206, but it truthfully it's probably it's own set of 1.

[Sean]

While we're at it, what about T215 Pirate backs? If they were printed in two separate groups, should some of them be considered T206?

If the first group was printed in 1910-1911, that would fall within the span of the T206 set, but the second group, printed in 1912, would not. But with the exception of Byrne, St.L and Byrne Pitt., the cards didn't change from the first to the second printing, so we can't which printing a particular card is from. Which I guess makes my point moot.

[tedzan]

Scratch the UZIT from your list. The red Cobb is one of 6 "super-prints" T206's. These 6 subjects were NOT printed with the UZIT back.


Speaking about the super-prints, here they are with their very rare 1910 COUPON (T213-1) backs. The 68 cards in this sub-set were printed by American Lithographic (ALC)
and issued circa Spring/Summer 1910......therefore, in my opinion they are T206's. I have yet to hear a logical argument to dissuade me from this premise.


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Furthermore, I strongly feel that the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card should be classified as a T206....since it was printed by ALC and issued circa 1910.





TED Z
.

[Leon]

Ted- Unfortunately you can think whatever you want it won't change the facts. The ACC says T213 Coupons were similar to T206. Burdick knew exactly what he was doing and the Coupon cards will always be T213, regardless of what you think.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Leon

Ted- Unfortunately you can think whatever you want it won't change the facts. The ACC says T213 Coupons were similar to T206. Burdick knew exactly what he was doing and the Coupon cards will always be T213, regardless of what you think.

I think I may re-evaluate and change the back run total to 39. Finally got a Tolstoi yesterday and it was to get a Sox player I don't have. I know they aren't super rare but the rarest back I have lol.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I think I may re-evaluate and change the back run total to 39. Finally got a Tolstoi yesterday and it was to get a Sox player I don't have. I know they aren't super rare but the rarest back I have lol.

I think we always need to be careful in what we say concerning cards being cataloged, manufactured and/or distributed. Until someone does a comprehensive overhaul, which is universally accepted, we have to go by the American Card Catalog for our numbering. I am willing to debate why T213 isn't T206 with reference to the reference (American Card Catalog 1960) . Mr. Burdick clearly states he knows Coupons, Victory's and Red Crosses, (T213, T214, T215) all were similar in design to T206. He always said he felt the catalog should grow and be revised but I am (personally) not in the camp to merge T213, T214 or T215 into T206.

ps...Ty Cobb was listed as a T206 back brand and I am certainly willing to go along with that one, from what we know today.

[ullmandds]

red hindu's aren't mentioned? maybe they are not t206's?

[Jobu]

Also, what is this "Usit" brand? Never seen that one before.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think we always need to be careful in what we say concerning cards being cataloged, manufactured and/or distributed. Until someone does a comprehensive overhaul, which is universally accepted, we have to go by the American Card Catalog for our numbering. I am willing to debate why T213 isn't T206 with reference to the reference (American Card Catalog 1960) . Mr. Burdick clearly states he knows Coupons, Victory's and Red Crosses, (T213, T214, T215) all were similar in design to T206. He always said he felt the catalog should grow and be revised but I am (personally) not in the camp to merge T213, T214 or T215 into T206.

ps...Ty Cobb was listed as a T206 back brand and I am certainly willing to go along with that one, from what we know today.

Contrary to what some of you think, I greatly appreciate Jeff Burdick's tremendous accomplishments. Not only in the Sportscard field, but especially in the Non-Sports category.
I do not fault him for incorrectly classifying the 1910 "COUPON" issue. As is evident in Leon's excerpt, Burdick's timeline of this COUPON issue is wrong (see red-circled dates
on below insert). Collaborative research on this forum has proven that the T213-1 set of cards were printed by American Lithograph and issued circa Spring/Summer 1910.
Burdick's 1914-1915 timeline pertains to the subsequent COUPON sets that he cataloged as T213-2 and T213-3. The cards in these two sets are easily distinguished from the
1910 COUPON cards since their captions were printed with blue ink (and, of course their backs are a different design).

Leon
I am with you on this statement of your's....."I am certainly willing to go along with that one, from what we know today."

I'd say we can also apply the same thinking to the 1910 COUPON issue. You don't want to call them "T206's". And, that's fine. But, let us at least acknowledge that had Burdick
the correct timeline of this issue, he may have classified these cards otherwise.







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TED Z
.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Contrary to what some of you think, I greatly appreciate Jeff Burdick's tremendous accomplishments. Not only in the Sportscard field, but especially in the Non-Sports category.
I do not fault him for incorrectly classifying the 1910 "COUPON" issue. As is evident in Leon's excerpt, Burdick's timeline of this COUPON issue is wrong (see red-circled dates
on below insert). Collaborative research on this forum has proven that the T213-1 set of cards were printed by American Lithograph and issued circa Spring/Summer 1910.
Burdick's 1914-1915 timeline pertains to the subsequent COUPON sets that he cataloged as T213-2 and T213-3. The cards in these two sets are easily distinguished from the
1910 COUPON cards since their captions were printed with blue ink (and, of course their backs are a different design).

Leon
I am with you on this statement of your's....."I am certainly willing to go along with that one, from what we know today."

I'd say we can also apply the same thinking to the 1910 COUPON issue. You don't want to call them "T206's". And, that's fine. But, let us at least acknowledge that had Burdick
the correct timeline of this issue, he may have classified these cards otherwise.


TED Z
.

Hi Ted
As I stated, I am sure Burdick knew he made mistakes and was missing information. I concur with you in that had he known, he probably would have made the series 1 Of T213 as another brand of T206. But that still doesn't explain the paper thin nature of T213-1 vs ANY of the known T206 brands. Unless there is something I am forgetting?

[wolf441]

Hi Ted,

If we were to include the 1910 Coupon as part of the T206 set, where would you put it in terms of rarity?

They hardly ever come up for sale, but I get the feeling that there's a decent amount locked away in private collections. Since the T213-1 is currently considered it's own set, I'm sure that some advance collectors have/are tried/trying to put one together. Whereas, if the 1910 Coupon was just considered part of the T206 set, back run collectors might only feel the need to get one for their collection.

My gut feeling is that they are somewhere between Carolina Brights and Broadleaf in terms of rarity if compared to the T206 set.

Love to get your thoughts on the matter.

Best,

Steve

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Hi Ted,

If we were to include the 1910 Coupon as part of the T206 set, where would you put it in terms of rarity?

They hardly ever come up for sale, but I get the feeling that there's a decent amount locked away in private collections. Since the T213-1 is currently considered it's own set, I'm sure that some advance collectors have/are tried/trying to put one together. Whereas, if the 1910 Coupon was just considered part of the T206 set, back run collectors might only feel the need to get one for their collection.

My gut feeling is that they are somewhere between Carolina Brights and Broadleaf in terms of rarity if compared to the T206 set.

Love to get your thoughts on the matter.

Best,

Steve

Hey Steve I've seen quite a few of them on eBay or maybe I haven't but I've typed in t213 and found some and they're expensive but not crazy.

@Leon and Steve what do you guys consider for your back run 38? 39? 41?

I really want a Needham and there's one listed:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-T213-CO...item58c10de63c

Running out of money at this point spent too much with my income tax literally. Might take a break for awhile or try to. This site doesn't help haha.

[ullmandds]

You are seeing T213-2...coupon type II's on ebay with the blue captions. These coupon type II's are tougher than t206 cobbs...but are much much more common than coupon type I(which is controversially not considered a t206) and type III...also blue print, typically thinner card and also much tougher than a t206 or coupon type II.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Hey Steve I've seen quite a few of them on eBay or maybe I haven't but I've typed in t213 and found some and they're expensive but not crazy.

@Leon and Steve what do you guys consider for your back run 38? 39? 41?

I really want a Needham and there's one listed:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1914-T213-CO...item58c10de63c

Running out of money at this point spent too much with my income tax literally. Might take a break for awhile or try to. This site doesn't help haha.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You are seeing T213-2...coupon type II's on ebay with the blue captions. These coupon type II's are tougher than t206 cobbs...but are much much more common than coupon type I(which is controversially not considered a t206) and type III...also blue print, typically thinner card and also much tougher than a t206 or coupon type II.

My mind is being blown right now. Lol.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You are seeing T213-2...coupon type II's on ebay with the blue captions. These coupon type II's are tougher than t206 cobbs...but are much much more common than coupon type I(which is controversially not considered a t206) and type III...also blue print, typically thinner card and also much tougher than a t206 or coupon type II.

Need to clarify what you correctly said, Pete. The T213-3 are thinner physically but are on regular card stock, not like the paper thin card stock T213-1s.

[ullmandds]

thx leon.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You are seeing T213-2...coupon type II's on ebay with the blue captions. These coupon type II's are tougher than t206 cobbs...but are much much more common than coupon type I(which is controversially not considered a t206) and type III...also blue print, typically thinner card and also much tougher than a t206 or coupon type II.

Just to clarify Josh, The T213-2 Coupons from 1914 are about as scarce as a Polar Bear or Old Mill T206 back. Pete is just being facetious (Pete, you rascal!! ).

[Sean]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Just to clarify Josh, The T213-2 Coupons from 1914 are about as scarce as a Polar Bear or Old Mill T206 back. Pete is just being facetious (Pete, you rascal!! ).

The T213-1s are much tougher than the 2s. And only the Type-1s are possibly included as T206. The Type-2 and Type-3 are noticeably different from T206.

[ullmandds]

And thank you Steve for correcting me as well...now all we need is Frank to create a who's on first type comedy routine involving t213 coupons.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Ted
As I stated, I am sure Burdick knew he made mistakes and was missing information. I concur with you in that had he known, he probably would have made the series 1 Of T213 as another brand of T206. But that still doesn't explain the paper thin nature of T213-1 vs ANY of the known T206 brands. Unless there is something I am forgetting?

My theory on the "paper thin" stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on is that these cards were never meant to be cigarette pack "stiffiners".
This new brand of ATC cigarettes were marketed in the standard long cartons in loose form by the 100's. I used to have a scan of such a carton labelled
"COUPON" Cigarettes, but I lost the scan.

Furthermore, many of the Type-1 cards are found with consistent paper loss on the upper part of their backs. (such as these cards). This suggests to me
that a lot of these cards were most likely glued onto their cigarette cartons.

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Also, I have checked Jon Canfield regarding the standard 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON". Jon has never seen one.


I hope this helps regarding the difference in cardboard stock between most white-bordered Tobacco cards and the T213-1 cards.


TED Z
.

[The Nasty Nati]

Very rarely you'll see a T213 type 1 pop up on eBay. IMO they are a T206. Yes the card stock is thinner, but the font on the front matches T206s not to mention the backs look almost identical to Broad Leaf, Cycle, Drum, and American Beauty. If American Beauty gets a pass for having a shorter trimmed card I think T213 Type 1's deserve a pass for thinner card stock. And it's been proven on other threads that ATC printed the type 1's during the same time frame as the rest of the T206s.

[atx840]

I think Ted is on to something about how the Type-1s were attached to their packs, most appear to have damage in a similar location.

[caramelcard]

Here are what looks to be some Coupon carton boxes.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Here are what looks to be some Coupon carton boxes.

That must be the scan that Ted lost.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here are the 3 Coupon backs lined up. I started collecting all 3 series in the mid 80's b/c my Dad was paying and he said these T213's were just as good or better than T206 and looked exactly the same. I think he was right.
It's easy to find a T213-2, but may become difficult when you are looking for a specific card. I have 3/4 of the Tinkers and the 4th one was in LOTG and is a key to the set. I was the underbidder and the winner got a great deal I thought.
T213-3 are hard to find. More difficult than 2 series by a wide margin. T213-1 are very scarce. If they were a T206 I would say between Carolina Brights & Uzit as to difficulty level. As Mr. Z stated earlier, T213-1 has 68 cards to the set.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Here are the 3 Coupon backs lined up. I started collecting all 3 series in the mid 80's b/c my Dad was paying and he said these T213's were just as good or better than T206 and looked exactly the same. I think he was right.
It's easy to find a T213-2, but may become difficult when you are looking for a specific card. I have 3/4 of the Tinkers and the 4th one was in LOTG and is a key to the set. I was the underbidder and the winner got a great deal I thought.
T213-3 are hard to find. More difficult than 2 series by a wide margin. T213-1 are very scarce. If they were a T206 I would say between Carolina Brights & Uzit as to difficulty level. As Mr. Z stated earlier, T213-1 has 68 cards to the set.

Rob

It's been a while since we lasted talked. At that time you needed only 5 cards to complete your 1910 COUPON set.

Any luck in completing this elusive T213 set ?


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Ted,
Still working on it with 5 to go. Been working on other sets as I go along. Thanks for asking. I'll get there eventually.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Ted,
Still working on it with 5 to go. Been working on other sets as I go along. Thanks for asking. I'll get there eventually.

that's amazing...only 5 away?!?!?!

[Sean]

Rob, which cards are you missing?

[RCMcKenzie]

Pete and Sean, Thanks, still looking for Greminger, Hart (Montgomery), Laporte, Rhoades, and Hickman.

[barrysloate]

There's no question that T-213 Type 1 has many characteristics similar to T-206, but it is also clearly part of the Coupon brand that issued the type 2 and 3. Likewise, the Cobb with Cobb back is identical in appearance to a T-206, but there are differences with the way it was distributed and packaged, and the fact that only a single card was issued with that advertising.

So if you believe that Burdick's work should remain unchallenged, then you have to go with his classifications. But if you feel he did make some errors, as he would readily admit, then it is reasonable to feel Coupons should be T-206's and Ty Cobbs should not.

Bottom line: this is a debate that will probably always have two sides, as there is no way to know the answer with certainty.

[wolf441]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Pete and Sean, Thanks, still looking for Greminger, Hart (Montgomery), Laporte, Rhoades, and Hickman.

Congrats on quite an accomplishment!

And it's nice to know that there's a T213-1 Dode Paskert out there, I've been getting discouraged on my quest!!!

Best,

Steve

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Hi, Ted,
Still working on it with 5 to go. Been working on other sets as I go along. Thanks for asking. I'll get there eventually.

Rob

Your 63 - T213-1 cards are an amazing accomplishment. When you complete this set, I think you may be the only one on Net54 that has done so.



Here's my favorite guy in the White-Bordered series of cards......depicted on 4 different teams.


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Still looking for the Factory 8 overprint.



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Good luck with that overprint, Ted. I know Chris has one, but I'm sure he won't be trading any time soon.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Good luck with that overprint, Ted. I know Chris has one, but I'm sure he won't be trading any time soon.

Chris and I have traded Chase's from our collections over the years. But, we have stood firm on certain ones in our collections.
For examples, I would like to have his COUPON Factory 8 overprint and his red HINDU. Chris would like my BROAD LEAF, etc.

Oh well, it's all like Bogey said in the final scene in the Maltese Falcon......" The stuff that dreams are made of "


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, it's a shame you can't help each other, but some of those cards are virtually one of a kind. I know how hard it was for me to find the Merkle Factory 8 overprint.


scan0001.jpgscan0002.jpg

[tedzan]

Great card of Merkle.

Do I recall correctly that you also have the PIRATE version of Merkle ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Great card of Merkle.

Do I recall correctly that you also have the PIRATE version of Merkle ?


TED Z
.

Ted, I've shown these too often to post, but here is a list:

Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 25
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30
Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 42 OP
Polar Bear
Tolstoi
Old Mill
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 25
Piedmont 350-460 Factory 42
Sovereign 460
Cycle 460
American Beauty 460
Lenox Black
Lenox Brown
Uzit
T213 Coupon Type-2
T213 Coupon Type-3
T213 Coupon Type-3 Factory 8 OP
T215 Pirate

I'm still searching for the Red Cross Merkle. That's my White Whale.