Bid Retractions - A Punk Move?

[MattyC]

What are fellow collectors' thoughts on bid retractions? I was just looking at a card I like, and saw some dude has a ton of bids on it. Then I saw homeboy has like 30 retractions in 6 months.

I understand there are legit circumstances for doing this. And that's all good. But that many? Seems like a real bush league punk thing to do, whether it's a tactic to taint an auction or to fish for another guy's max, or if it's just fear of dropping big money. Either hit the button or don't, but the half-stepping retractions is just weak sauce, IMO.

Thoughts?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Yup, it's unmanly.

[DanP]

I've been buying cards on eBay for seven years and have zero bid retractions. Unfortunately, bid retractions, shilling, etc. is part of doing business on eBay. That's not going to change.

BTW, WOW... nice collection. Let me know if you ever decide to sell any of your cards.

[Bestdj777]

I have been actively buying cards on eBay for the last several years and only have a handful of bid retractions. Once or twice, I genuinely typed in the wrong number (i.e., $1000 rather than $100), but I quickly bid the correct amount. The other couple of times I thought I was being shilled. Someone would keep putting in incremental bids until they surpassed me and then retract their bids thereby learning my high bid. I did not like my max bid being public info, so I retracted it and put in a new, lower max in the event the shiller tried to bid me up to what he thought was my max last minute.

That said, I think there are legitimate reasons but cannot think of a legitimate reason to retract 30 bids in 6 months.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I've had a few bid retractions that I can remember.

1). I was bidding on what I thought to be a 1978 Topps Baseball unopened vending box (from a reputable seller), but once I placed my bid I realized it was a Basketball (I believe) vending box, not baseball. It was my fault for not reading the description more carefully.

2). There were a couple times when I've placed a bid on an item and then asked the seller a question about the item with no only to have no response, and therefore I retracted my bid. I assumed the seller had something to hide by not answering my question. Probably my fault again for not asking the question before I bid, but I didn’t want to get stuck with something I wasn’t happy with.

3.) There have been a few times when I was high bidder on an item with a very high proxy and someone outbids me only to retract their bid. At that point my high proxy is exposed and is very easy to run up my bid if someone wanted to. When that happens, I'll retract my bid every time. Please don't lecture me on sniping, I choose not to bid that way.

All that said, I have probably only retracted my bid less than a ten times in my 11+ years on eBay.

[ALR-bishop]

I think I have had one that fits your # 2 David ,and a couple that fit number 3 in my pre snipe days. No lecture intended , but sniping solved those issues for me. It's just a personal choice.

When placing my snipes I just assume the seller has a price that he will try to get to by minimum bid, reserve or shills ( if I get a totally honest seller, great) , so I bid what I am willing to pay for the card and let it go

[pawpawdiv9]

Have ya ever bid on something and wanted to 'retract' but it was under the 12 hr limit and unable to do it? So then you send a message to the seller asking to retract and waits till the auction ends and sends a bad reply.
I told them exactly what the card was in my message...so it was not identified.
And was told i was rude???

[MBMiller25]

I am not sure how many bid retractions I have done in my lifetime, but I have done them. I have never done them to find a hidden reserve or to find out where someone might be with their bid on a card I want to buy. Where I typically found myself doing it, is with BIN/BO auctions. I am totally am impulsive buyer, and would see a card I like, put a offer on that card, and between the time I put my offer in, and waited to get a reply from the seller, come to my senses and retract the BO I had placed on the card.

I have gone to a snipe program now, and it tends to curtail my impulsive purchases.

[MattyC]

Matt, with your great taste in cards, an impulse buy would never steer you wrong. It might only make you money, lol.

[steve B]

I've got one retraction since I think 1998.

I saw a nice film projector at well below the going price and bid. Later that night I was telling my film collecting friend about it and he said "didn't you see the shipping is $80?! " Which put it about $40 over the usual price including shipping. I cancelled that bid, but haven't had a reason to cancel any others. I've mistyped a few times, but the give you plenty of chances to catch it.

I can see maybe using it to find the reserve, but have never done it. Just nothing I want that much, that's also within my budget. I also usually ask about a reserve. Some sellers will tell you what the reserve is, some won't. I always did as a seller and eventually started putting it in the description.

Most buyers were really good about that, and I learned a lot about a couple items I had. One thing a buyer sent me a few links to sales of the same item at major auctions or dealers, showing me I'd made the reserve about double what I could expect. It gave me time to change the reserve to be more reasonable. Another item I had 3-4 potential buyers ask about the reserve then tell me I was going to be very pleasantly surprised. I was, it went for over 6X my reserve.

Steve B

[the 'stache]

I've never once had a bid retraction. If I make a bid, I'm prepared to buy the card at that price. Period. If somebody wants to jack the price up, and I end up paying at the high end, or ceiling, well, I'm a firm believer that karma will get them. But I'm still within the amount I budgeted for the card.

I have a very big problem with the games people play on Ebay, and the hobby in particular, and it's turning me off to collecting.

[MattyC]

Bill, don't let it turn you off. See Miller's thread entitled COME ON!... There are philosophies we can employ, perspectives we can take, that really brush off those annoyances like so much dirt off Jay-Z's shoulder. Focus on the cards, brother! The cards never bothered nobody

[MyGuyTy]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill, don't let it turn you off. See Miller's thread entitled COME ON!... There are philosophies we can employ, perspectives we can take, that really brush off those annoyances like so much dirt off Jay-Z's shoulder. Focus on the cards, brother! The cards never bothered nobody

Words of wisdom

[the 'stache]

There is a general malaise that's pervasive in the hobby, Matt, and it is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth that I can't get rid of it. And it's not just just shill bidding, though that's part of it. The thread on the main forum about the Rickey Henderson PSA-graded rookies perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about. It's becoming less and less about the love of the hobby, and the sport, and more about greed and vanity. And I find it morally repugnant.

You've got people cracking cards out and resubmitting them Ad nauseam to do...what? Make a lot of money. The piece of cardboard is the same, yet if you submit a nine enough times, the law of averages states it will come back as a ten eventually. There's virtually no risk involved, either. It's not as if they're tickling the dragon's tail in order to realize this desired effect. No screw driver is going to slip. And every fiber of my being as a stock broker screams that there has to be some kind of risk involved in order to make money. Unless the card owner is a dope, and they drop the card, the likelihood that the card is going to be damaged, or lost en route to the tpg, is practically nil. They're just going to keep sending that damned card in until their card by chance finds a grader at the TPG who got some the night before, and pops a "10" into the computer while happily whistling their "I got some nookie" song. So, after the card owner subtracts the fees for submitting the card umpteenth times (and PSA says "thank you very much" for playing their profitable little game), they sell that ten at a massive markup to somebody who just has to have the very best, and will spend whatever amount is necessary to impress other people. Why? Because of the registry, which is nothing more than a dick-measuring contest. "Ha, my collection is 0.0135 better than yours because I spent an obscene amount of money to upgrade my Rickey Henderson card from a 9 to a 10!" These people don't care about the history behind the card, or the player. At their most base level, they are looking for validation. So, they'll spend a lot of money (and even more than they would have because some idiot is pumping up the price), and acquire their "ten", which is really a "nine" that just happened to find somebody in a generous mood. So who ends up getting screwed? The seller of the card? Nope. They took a $500 Henderson 9 and magically transformed it into a $10,000 + 10 with their persistence. Does the TPG lose? Nope. They made money every time they looked at the card. What about Mr. Vanity and his 10? Nope. He moved up in the registry, so he's happy. What about Mr. Consignment, who made a cool profit by having his second cousin Louie make a new Ebay account specifically to shill the price? He's happy, too, as he made more money. Ebay doesn't care, because 10% of more money is good for their bottom line. Paypal? They don't give a damn. They're getting their money, too.

It's the little guy, the guy that's perfectly happy to have his nine, or even *gasp* that worthless eight with the pimple only visible under a 100 x magnifying glass-he's the one getting bent over. Now, if he wants to get that nine, he has to pay a lot more money for it, because as the price of the ten goes up, by extension, the price of the next best card goes up, too.

I don't know, Matt. I feel like there's so many scams being run at the same time, it's making me dizzy. This isn't what the hobby is supposed to be.

[MattyC]

Bill,

The hobby is entirely what you make it, to you. It's about you and your collection, the pursuit of a card you have long wanted, finding that example that you know is The One, and sharing those cards and victories with fellow enthusiasts who appreciate them. It's about the joy the cards give you.

I believe it was Bob Marley who once said, "It's a foolish dog who barks at a flying bird." I take it to mean, don't make yourself upset over things far beyond your control.

Much of what you are talking about is The Registry Game and TPGs. We can choose to get upset about that-- about those actions others are taking-- or we can choose not to. Being upset in some cases is a simple choice. If some guy wants to pay 15k for a card that a grader has labeled "Number X," which many of us don't think is worthy of that grade, then hey, that's a guy and his money. And if his goal is to see his set rise in GPA over others, then that's a game some are playing. If people are happy, then cool.

If you put too much energy and focus on the TPG game, it can drive you nuts. It's like anything that gets SUBJECTIVELY graded or evaluated. It is not an exact science or math. For example, in college I once wrote a paper, handed it in, it got a C. I was LIVID. I just knew and believed the paper was much better. I later handed the SAME paper in to another teacher for another class, as the same novel was read for that other class. It got an A. I then realized the silly nature of subjectivity. One man's trash is another's treasure.

Take hit movies or TV shows, too. Also subjectively evaluated products. Seinfield and Sopranos for example were both rejected. The first buyers to hear those shows passed, essentially saying they were poor. Then other buyers heard the same pitch, but judged the product as gold.

I don't mind if many are out to profit on cards. They are often rare and desired by many and therefore valuable. People want to sell them and people want to buy them. If it turns you off that TPGs are so subjective, which in turn creates grey areas and opportunities for cards to bump, and in turn sell for exponentially higher prices to Registry guys, then one can collect raw, or embrace the best advice out there:

Buy the card and not the holder.

You grade the graders with your eyes and wallet. You pay what you want. If someone gets a lucky grade or a crappy grade, or if someone wants to pay big for a crappy 10, again it in no way influences your decisions and purchases-- which create your collection.

I think most savvy, experienced collectors do know that the smart buy is the undergraded card. That many deserving 10s can be found in 9 holders. But here's the salient point, for me: who needs a grader to tell them what they have? If I know my card in PSA 1, for example, is a better looking card than a "higher graded" 2 that is, say, OC with stains and creases, I don't need a grader to ever validate that or tell it to me.

The decisions and the power lie in your mind and your choices. What we let bother us, and what we simply choose to not let bother us.

Lastly, when it comes to scams, there are attempted scams everywhere. Look at insider trading on Wall Street, or pump and dumps. There's a shady element to almost anything that involves value. But the individual is always in charge of what they let bug them, and I for one simply refuse to let subjective grades or anything else affect the joy I get from collecting rare and beautiful pieces. It's just too much fun.

Anyways, hope those points help.

[the 'stache]

I keep going back to the feeling that the market, or in this case the hobby, is being manipulated. And while you and I, and a lot of other honest to goodness collectors aren't involved, we still get some of the associated stink on us. I know there are ways to avoid much of the BS that's going on, but it's hard for me to turn a blind eye to it all.

I'll be ok. Sometimes I just need to clear the air, and when I see something that I feel is unethical, I just boil over.

[bobbyw8469]

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

[MBMiller25]

Bill/Bobby and Matt you all make great comments.

Bill and Bobby, I was in a similar position as you about a year ago. I actually sold a good portion of my collection off because I was disgusted with what I was seeing in the hobby. Its funny, I wanted to know as much about this hobby as I could possibly know, and meet and have relationships with as many of the high end dealers that sell what I collect. What I didn't bargain for with this quest for knowledge is just how political this hobby is, and the games that are played all in the name of money and greed. I too, am guilty of this. A perfect example is having already high end cards reviewed because I felt they were under-graded and in my case I got burned. I did this because I thought I was being slighted, and didn't want to miss out on my piece of the pie. There are some great dealers/people in this hobby, honest as the day is long. There area also some scum in this hobby. Unfortunately anywhere there is money to be made, greed and corruption with follow. Its everywhere.

As Matt C has said much more eloquently than I am saying, this hobby is just that. Its a hobby. Its all about what you make of it. If you let every little thing you perceive as being a "wrong" upset you, your not going to have much fun, (which I presume is the case right now). Enjoy the hobby for what it is.
It is when I got to this point, that I stopped worry about everything else, and focused on what I enjoy in this hobby.

TPG is just that. Its an opinion from some guy/girl that probably doesnt know anymore about the hobby than we all know. Its just an opinion. Look at cards and buy what you like, what aesthetically pleases your eye, and don't worry about the rest.

When I stopped worry about the symantics surrounding the hobby and just focused on myself and the cards I enjoyed, this became a lot more fun for me. I hope it turns around for the both of you, I really enjoy both of you on these boards and reading/viewing what you have to share.

[ALR-bishop]

I am still having fun. Just a hobby for me

"You just keep thinking Butch, cause that's what you're good at"....Sundance Kid

[the 'stache]

Matt C,

I went back and reread your response (as well as the pm you sent), and you really do make some outstanding points. Consciously, everything you said makes sense to me, and I should be able to just say "buy what I like, ignoring the tpg determination for the most part, using it only as a starting point". But it's so damned hard for me to disengage what amounts to the cynical part of my mind. Sometimes I am over-analytical, which can be both a blessing and a curse depending on what I am doing at the time. And a healthy cynicism, especially in this hobby, is a good thing. It keeps me on my toes. I think once I get back into collecting again here pretty soon, some of this other stuff will subside.

Robert,

Those '57 George Kell cards are a perfect demonstration of what I'm talking about. Here's a comp for future discussion:



Currently, these cards, all being sold by PWCC, all ending at the same time, are exhibiting wide bid variance.

The PSA 8 is at $37.00 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 30 bids.
The PSA 8.5 is at $76.00 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 16 bids.
The PSA 9 is at $455.09 with 1 day 13 hours to go. 24 bids.

The PSA 8 looks like it has corners not quite as sharp, but there isn't that big a difference between these three cards unless you break out the magnifying glass.

Bidder: u***l ( 8,235 Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999) has 7 bids on the PSA 8, and 23 bid retractions in the last 6 months, including 1 on this auction (if I am reading this right).

Bidder: i***r ( 1611 Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) has 5 bids on the PSA 8.5, and 21 retractions in the last six months, including 3 on this auction.

And lo and behold, Bidder: u***l ( 8235Feedback score is 5,000 to 9,999) has 7 bids on this PSA 9.

So, the same guy is bidding on both a PSA 8 and a PSA 9?

Something seems rotten here.

Matt, I'm glad that you are still here after being burned out. That tells me that I'm not alone, and that I can, too, move past this.

[MattyC]

Look at all the fun and camaraderie we've been having here the last few months-- it's been a blast. Look at how much we enjoy the cards and the pursuit of the tough ones. Why would anyone want to let negativity fester and grow in their minds, and infect the purity and goodness of their relationship with cards? The cards are at once art, tickets to time travel, representations of greatness on the field, memories, invitations to learn more about history, and, yes, items of great if not inestimable value-- all wrapped in one. Am I going to let some $20 an hour grader ruin that, because occasionally they give an overly generous grade out, or let some shiller ruin that, when I can snipe? Hell no.

There is nothing wrong with great items having great value. More guys want them than there are examples. That makes total sense. That's why I for the most part stick to tough cards that are already expensive enough in LOW GRADE. I couldn't even dream of owning some of my cards in high grade. We all know that 10 is a gimmick and the difference between 9s and 10s is infinitesimal. It is also ironically the biggest price difference. Paying the biggest difference in price for the smallest difference in card is patently silly, so why give it any credence? That's like banging your head against the wall because someone out there, who's not you, is doing something ragingly stupid across the planet. Meanwhile there are tons of guys like you who know the real score whom you can hang with.

Seriously, a registry says Ruth's RC is his 33 Goudey. Equates one Joe DiMaggio 1940 PlayBall in PSA 5 as more valuable than a Zeenut Batting 2 and a 1937 OPC 2. Equates 10 commons in 10 to a Brett RC in truly deserving 10. With all these facts and more, to take it too seriously is the real mistake. If some people want to let a website tell them what to buy, and buy labels regardless of whether the card matches the grade, that's what they do in their backyard and I hope they have fun.

When it comes to the third party system, it definitely helps in some major ways. It's done good for the hobby. But we cannot let it get to us when we see things like this below...





Don't get me wrong: I think the other card is tremendous just for existing, and would be happy to own it. I just would not grade it higher than the other. But how crazy would it be for me to let that imbalance poison my passion for the former card?

Here's the kicker: the market speaks and at auction, side by side, the 1 will sell for more than the 2. Proof that collectors' eyes and votes are the final grade, not some sticker.

Heck, a few guys said the Brett 9 is better than the 10. That is all the validation that 9 or I need. Who wouldn't hold what fellow collectors say in higher esteem than what a sticker says? Trying to get a hardcore registry collector to concede that their 10 is not a 10 or as good as a 9 out there, that's not a realistic or productive goal. If a guy adores and takes huge pride in his 10 whose grade I don't see as correct, who am I to piss in his Cheerios? Now if he seeks me out and tries to flex and floss, then I will be happy to politely explain why I am not jocking a bad 10 or letting a set GPA tell me what's better. Then he'll probably see the light

Now let's turn to selling for a quick second. I applaud guys who know what the card is and price it based on their assessment. I recently paid DOUBLE VCP for a PSA 5 Mantle. The seller knew it was better than 6s and most 7s. He priced it that way. Along comes a collector like me who buys the card and not the holder. I paid his price, because I knew I could not find a better CARD for the price-- and the STICKER WAS UTTERLY IRRELEVANT, other than providing me with authentication and card protection.

Same thing with my Satchel. And same seller. He knew his 1.5 SP was superior to many higher grades. I agreed, and paid accordingly. I don't need the grade to change, not when-- for FREE-- I can get the grades from my fellow collectors, whom I respect the most. That's the salient point.

When time for resale, I say sure, take a review shot in the holder if you feel lucky and if the card really merits it. Again I think the TPGs overall are great for the hobby and most of the time do their best. And as collectors, the undergrades save us much money. We don't have to buy the overgrades. And when it's time to sell your 9 that you know looks as good as any 10, go ahead and price it like or near a 10. And tell prospective buyers politely that you're all about the card, and they can try and find a better one, but they won't be able to. And if they collect cards, they will agree and buy it. I'm proof it happens. And if they collect holders, so be it, their choice.

Lastly, if a card truly merits the grade, odds are, upon review, it will wind up where it rightfully belongs. No system is completely perfect; and if that grade does matter to someone and it was in error, there is a protocol in place to rectify that, as imperfect as it may be.

In the end, great cards speak for themselves, and we just need to put as much weight in our own opinions and each others' opinions, as in a TPG opinion. That's a real easy thing to do, and frees the mind up to enjoy the cards.

[MattyC]

Bill,

Of your three examples, I think the 8.5 and 9 are sharpest. I would probably buy the 8.5 if it was markedly lower than the 9. That represents value for the CARD. The grades look pretty accurate. I'd say the 8.5 is best, because I like his clean image (no cheek blemish), the centering, and whiter borders. But that I concede is a subjective call, as others may prefer the better edges and corners of the 9.

So the hair is very fine between the 8.5 and 9. How much is that hair worth? To me, not much. And I won't pay a big price difference for a small card difference. But to some guys, maybe the half grade up is worth much more, whether they need the 9 for their Registry GPA or just want to say they own the "better grade."

However it shakes out, what matters is that the winners are happy with their cards. If they are, all good.

When it comes to the bidding shenanigans, sniping is an amazing tool. It renders everything a best offer or card show scenario. You make you best offer and either it wins or it doesn't. I think retracting and shilling is bush league, but because I can't talk sense to those people, I won't be the dog barking at the bird. I will snipe and win what I want for my collection, namely undergraded classics, like THIS BAD BOY...

[ALR-bishop]

If it is really just a hobby for someone, they do not care what a 3d party thinks about the cards they collect. When it comes to post war Topps or Fleer, I am confident I know more about those cards than anyone at a grading company. I do not need someone's seal of approval on what I collect

If cards were an investment for me, or an important part of my estate planning, that would be a different situation completely.

The only time I get down is when reading threads obsessing over what the grading companies are doing....only kidding, I just move on to something else more interesting to me.

I do think the post war regulars here are a great group and very much enjoy the cards that are posted and the ongoing exchange of information

[doug.goodman]

I was thinking about adding in a long dissertation with my thoughts about the people who get paid for their opinions, and the people who pay them, but I keep thinking about that Henderson thread that the 'stache" mentioned, and then the best I've got is :

"Haha! Best regards"

Insert smiley face here,
Doug

[MBMiller25]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Bill,

Of your three examples, I think the 8.5 and 9 are sharpest. I would probably buy the 8.5 if it was markedly lower than the 9. That represents value for the CARD. The grades look pretty accurate. I'd say the 8.5 is best, because I like his clean image (no cheek blemish), the centering, and whiter borders. But that I concede is a subjective call, as others may prefer the better edges and corners of the 9.

So the hair is very fine between the 8.5 and 9. How much is that hair worth? To me, not much. And I won't pay a big price difference for a small card difference. But to some guys, maybe the half grade up is worth much more, whether they need the 9 for their Registry GPA or just want to say they own the "better grade."

However it shakes out, what matters is that the winners are happy with their cards. If they are, all good.

When it comes to the bidding shenanigans, sniping is an amazing tool. It renders everything a best offer or card show scenario. You make you best offer and either it wins or it doesn't. I think retracting and shilling is bush league, but because I can't talk sense to those people, I won't be the dog barking at the bird. I will snipe and win what I want for my collection, namely undergraded classics, like THIS BAD BOY...

Did I just read that correctly? You were the winner of that card last night? I was watching that card. Hella Hard card! If you won it, Congrats to you. I am not sure most people realize how difficult that card is in any grade.

[MattyC]

Yup-- that was me with one bid: the last bid. Had to have it. Was spirited bidding at the end there. When I saw it listed my eyes bugged out, because the card NEVER surfaces in obtainable grade. The write up explained it, but eBay is not the optimum venue for the card as opposed to an REA or Goodwin, where the old school sharks patrol the waters. I think there are only around 30 in all grades. I've always loved the unique design of the piece and the write up on back. Joe D has three fresh and beasty hard early cards: the Zeenut, the v355, and this OPC. I love cards on VCP with next to no sales!

I think Joltin Joe's 56 would be impossible to break in today's media spotlight. It hasn't even been challenged, really. The man hardly ever struck out. I'm in awe of his baseball reference stats.

[MBMiller25]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yup-- that was me with one bid: the last bid. Had to have it. Was spirited bidding at the end there. When I saw it listed my eyes bugged out, because the card NEVER surfaces in obtainable grade. The write up explained it, but eBay is not the optimum venue for the card as opposed to an REA or Goodwin, where the old school sharks patrol the waters. I think there are only around 30 in all grades. I've always loved the unique design of the piece and the write up on back. Joe D has three fresh and beasty hard early cards: the Zeenut, the v355, and this OPC. I love cards on VCP with next to no sales!

I think Joltin Joe's 56 would be impossible to break in today's media spotlight. It hasn't even been challenged, really. The man hardly ever struck out. I'm in awe of his baseball reference stats.

He also got horizontal with Marilyn Monroe!

Congrats on another great pickup. Great card.

[MattyC]

Yup, any man who strikes out 13 times in a full season, has one of sports' most hallowed, unbreakable, celebrated records, and married the then-hottest woman on the face of the Earth...I mean, if that is not a player who MUST be represented in a collection, I don't know who is!

Also: 3 MVPs, 2 second place finishes, and a third place.

And MISSED three PRIME years for the war, at ages 28, 29, 30!!! Those are an athlete's prime seasons. I think many forget that. And the toughness of his cards kind of keeps him from really busting out in the hobby-- compared to say Mantle's inclusion as a high number in such a widely collected set,

JOE D WAS THE MAN! STATS.

[bobbyw8469]

Of the three George Kell 1957 Topps cards that sold last night.

The PSA 8 sold for $60 ($9 above VCP average)
The PSA 8.5 (which in my opinion was the nicest of the bunch) sold for $117.50 ($95 BELOW VCP average)
The PSA 9 sold for $658.30 ($11.91 above VCP average).

Those results only fuel my speculation that some funny stuff sometimes goes on with PWCC auctions). How could the best looking card of the three wind up selling for almost $100 under VCP average? Maybe the bidders weren't looking at all three cards?

[MBMiller25]

Amazing that there is that much of a price difference between a 8.5 and 9. The registry lends itself to this practice, as I agree with you that the 8.5 was the best looking of the three cards. There are alot of people out there that will buy the holder and not the card.

[MattyC]

8.5 was the best card. But I believe what happened here is that's a card that is not being chased by too many single card, non Registry collectors, like say Miller or myself as examples. With therefore mostly Registry types after it, I think the interest therefore trends toward the 9 grade. Guys not in the hunt for that high GPA (ugh) will probably think spending more for a .5 higher isn't worth it, and take the 8. This psychological scenario would account for the 8.5 slipping through the cracks. No doubt, some cards garner less interest from singles collectors and more from Registry collectors.

And those two types of collectors-- in general-- have vastly different mindsets and approaches to collecting and card choice. I have seen a great many Registry types focus so intensely on filling that empty slot on the screen with the grade they want, that they care little for the card-- long as it has the right number they want on the holder. I have buddies who are Red Sox fans, and I have buddies who will pass on the best card because their concern is the GPA. It's two different fundamental worlds of collecting, really. Some cards draw attention from both worlds, others are very desired by just one.

[bobbyw8469]

Matt, your post makes perfect sense - and helps to affirm my growing disdain for the hobby. I am in Stache's camp. Maybe I will feel differently after I go on vacation. Or maybe I will become more disenfranchised with it all and dump my whole collection!

[MattyC]

Why disdain? If anything, that 8.5 was a steal buy for any collector after it, brother!

I won't lie-- The Registry mentality and some of the imbalances it fosters used to annoy me. But then you start building a collection you love, with awesome cards, and many at good prices, and you find so many collectors appreciate that-- and especially yourself.

I think every time a guy buys an undergraded card like that 8.5, it's actually a huge victory for the collector. I root for the collector.

As I've said before, I will invest my attention on what my eyes say and what my fellow collectors whom I respect say-- like so many of you here-- over what a sticker says.

If you buy that 8.5 and show it next to a worse 9, collectors like all of us will tell you all day you have the better card, as will your eyes. That's what counts. And you paid less for it, which proves you are a savvy collector.

And if you ever want to sell, recall the example of what I paid for my 57 Mick, 34 Gehrig, and lowly PSA 1.5 Paige-- as compared to "VCP," which is just an average of mostly ugly cards, as eye appeal is not growing on trees.

A dealer I respect priced those three cards well above "VCP avg." I came with very respectable offers. His stance basically was, "Look at these cards. If you want the best cards in this price range, here they are. Try and find better, or buy worse with a higher number on the sticker, your choice. But I know what I have and this is the price."

And ya know what? I agreed and bought'em, because I am an eye appeal collector. To me eye appeal is the grade. Because we are admiring our cards in hand, or in a display, or in a gallery, not under a microscope.

Honestly, I don't think I ever even glance at the sticker when I look at my cards. Hand to God, I just look at the card.

Sell side, everyone wants the higher number on the sticker, and that's understandable. But--

1. You can get your price by putting a beautiful card up there and waiting for single card, eye appeal collectors to come by. We are there.

2. Buy side, the collector side, there are undergraded cards for us to find and they are like finding treasure. And we just ignore and don't buy the overgraded junk. If another type of collector likes overgraded or will choose sticker number over card quality, hey, what another dude does with his money, not our problemo. They can pass on the better card all day and I will buy it for less

End of the day, I think one has to search inward, and ask if they are truly collecting because they enjoy the cards and talking cards/sharing them with fellow enthusiasts, if they love thinking about the artistic merits of a card, and the legacy of the player, and the journey through time that card has taken...or, does one care about things like, "What they are worth?", or, "What they can be sold for?", or, "How can that guy over there pay more for that ugly card and walk around thinking his card is better than mine?, or, "How can that grader in that office think this or that?"

Those latter thoughts, that's a dog driving itself crazy, barking at birds. Those latter thoughts in the heart of a man are negative and unhealthy. And if those are the thoughts that cards bring up, then the individual is not really about the cards or collecting.

On the personal side, I have a very analogous situation that may help: I used to get salty when things at work that were far beyond my control would not go my way. I am not prone to getting the proverbial lucky break. It was beginning to turn me negative. Then, someone close to me said, "If you are really what you say, and all about the work and the craft, then why would you not strictly and solely take pleasure in that? If you get so down and negative when the aspect beyond your control doesn't go your way, maybe you are more about the business and the money, and not the purist, the craftsman, you claim to be?" After that talk, I thought about what I was, what I wanted to be, and I instantly stopped caring about the things beyond my control; I dug back down into the simple act I enjoy, and have been happy ever since.

[bobbyw8469]

Matt.....clear some space on your PM......

[MBMiller25]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Why disdain? If anything, that 8.5 was a steal buy for any collector after it, brother!

I won't lie-- The Registry mentality and some of the imbalances it fosters used to annoy me. But then you start building a collection you love, with awesome cards, and many at good prices, and you find so many collectors appreciate that-- and especially yourself.

I think every time a guy buys an undergraded card like that 8.5, it's actually a huge victory for the collector. I root for the collector.

As I've said before, I will invest my attention on what my eyes say and what my fellow collectors whom I respect say-- like so many of you here-- over what a sticker says.

If you buy that 8.5 and show it next to a worse 9, collectors like all of us will tell you all day you have the better card, as will your eyes. That's what counts. And you paid less for it, which proves you are a savvy collector.

And if you ever want to sell, recall the example of what I paid for my 57 Mick, 34 Gehrig, and lowly PSA 1.5 Paige-- as compared to "VCP," which is just an average of mostly ugly cards, as eye appeal is not growing on trees.

A dealer I respect priced those three cards well above "VCP avg." I came with very respectable offers. His stance basically was, "Look at these cards. If you want the best cards in this price range, here they are. Try and find better, or buy worse with a higher number on the sticker, your choice. But I know what I have and this is the price."

And ya know what? I agreed and bought'em, because I am an eye appeal collector. To me eye appeal is the grade. Because we are admiring our cards in hand, or in a display, or in a gallery, not under a microscope.

Honestly, I don't think I ever even glance at the sticker when I look at my cards. Hand to God, I just look at the card.

Sell side, everyone wants the higher number on the sticker, and that's understandable. But--

1. You can get your price by putting a beautiful card up there and waiting for single card, eye appeal collectors to come by. We are there.

2. Buy side, the collector side, there are undergraded cards for us to find and they are like finding treasure. And we just ignore and don't buy the overgraded junk. If another type of collector likes overgraded or will choose sticker number over card quality, hey, what another dude does with his money, not our problemo. They can pass on the better card all day and I will buy it for less

End of the day, I think one has to search inward, and ask if they are truly collecting because they enjoy the cards and talking cards/sharing them with fellow enthusiasts, if they love thinking about the artistic merits of a card, and the legacy of the player, and the journey through time that card has taken...or, does one care about things like, "What they are worth?", or, "What they can be sold for?", or, "How can that guy over there pay more for that ugly card and walk around thinking his card is better than mine?, or, "How can that grader in that office think this or that?"

Those latter thoughts, that's a dog driving itself crazy, barking at birds. Those latter thoughts in the heart of a man are negative and unhealthy. And if those are the thoughts that cards bring up, then the individual is not really about the cards or collecting.

On the personal side, I have a very analogous situation that may help: I used to get salty when things at work that were far beyond my control would not go my way. I am not prone to getting the proverbial lucky break. It was beginning to turn me negative. Then, someone close to me said, "If you are really what you say, and all about the work and the craft, then why would you not strictly and solely take pleasure in that? If you get so down and negative when the aspect beyond your control doesn't go your way, maybe you are more about the business and the money, and not the purist, the craftsman, you claim to be?" After that talk, I thought about what I was, what I wanted to be, and I instantly stopped caring about the things beyond my control; I dug back down into the simple act I enjoy, and have been happy ever since.

This is so well said. I particularly related to the part about buying cards for yourself, rather than holes in the registry. Its when I finally figured this out, that I became satisfied with collecting and the collection I have amassed. I am still doing a few sets on the registry, but I buy cards I like, and that I want when I find something that I think looks fantastic to my eyes. If it fills a hole in a registry, so be it, but I certainly do not buy cards to be filling holes.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

There is a general malaise that's pervasive in the hobby, Matt, and it is leaving a very bad taste in my mouth that I can't get rid of it. And it's not just just shill bidding, though that's part of it. The thread on the main forum about the Rickey Henderson PSA-graded rookies perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about. It's becoming less and less about the love of the hobby, and the sport, and more about greed and vanity. And I find it morally repugnant.

You've got people cracking cards out and resubmitting them Ad nauseam to do...what? Make a lot of money. The piece of cardboard is the same, yet if you submit a nine enough times, the law of averages states it will come back as a ten eventually. There's virtually no risk involved, either. It's not as if they're tickling the dragon's tail in order to realize this desired effect. No screw driver is going to slip. And every fiber of my being as a stock broker screams that there has to be some kind of risk involved in order to make money. Unless the card owner is a dope, and they drop the card, the likelihood that the card is going to be damaged, or lost en route to the tpg, is practically nil. They're just going to keep sending that damned card in until their card by chance finds a grader at the TPG who got some the night before, and pops a "10" into the computer while happily whistling their "I got some nookie" song. So, after the card owner subtracts the fees for submitting the card umpteenth times (and PSA says "thank you very much" for playing their profitable little game), they sell that ten at a massive markup to somebody who just has to have the very best, and will spend whatever amount is necessary to impress other people. Why? Because of the registry, which is nothing more than a dick-measuring contest. "Ha, my collection is 0.0135 better than yours because I spent an obscene amount of money to upgrade my Rickey Henderson card from a 9 to a 10!" These people don't care about the history behind the card, or the player. At their most base level, they are looking for validation. So, they'll spend a lot of money (and even more than they would have because some idiot is pumping up the price), and acquire their "ten", which is really a "nine" that just happened to find somebody in a generous mood. So who ends up getting screwed? The seller of the card? Nope. They took a $500 Henderson 9 and magically transformed it into a $10,000 + 10 with their persistence. Does the TPG lose? Nope. They made money every time they looked at the card. What about Mr. Vanity and his 10? Nope. He moved up in the registry, so he's happy. What about Mr. Consignment, who made a cool profit by having his second cousin Louie make a new Ebay account specifically to shill the price? He's happy, too, as he made more money. Ebay doesn't care, because 10% of more money is good for their bottom line. Paypal? They don't give a damn. They're getting their money, too.

It's the little guy, the guy that's perfectly happy to have his nine, or even *gasp* that worthless eight with the pimple only visible under a 100 x magnifying glass-he's the one getting bent over. Now, if he wants to get that nine, he has to pay a lot more money for it, because as the price of the ten goes up, by extension, the price of the next best card goes up, too.

I don't know, Matt. I feel like there's so many scams being run at the same time, it's making me dizzy. This isn't what the hobby is supposed to be.

I get what you're saying but don't agree at all that the competition for high graded slab hurts the low grade / mid grade collector. In fact I'd argue the opposite - the focus on the highest grade cards creates great value in mid grade cards. Lots of great cards sitting in mid grade holders that the raw guys and high grade guys won't buy.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Bill....I really liked your post. It perfectly exemplifies what I am dealing with personally with my 'association' with the hobby right now. I don't have anything to add - you said everything perfectly.

Matt - I just read your rebuttal. That was good too.

I think this link shows it best.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

When you have a 'worthless' 8 selling for only $30, a half point higher 8.5 selling for over double that at $76, and a half point higher than that - the 'mint' 9 selling at over 15 TIMES the price of the 8 - well....that is why the hobby has so much greed and problems with it. The ironic part is - I CAN'T SEE A F***ING THING DIFFERENT IN ALL THREE CARDS!! THEY ALL LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!!!

Apologies for the back to back posts but just picking through the thread. This just goes to prove my point...

If you can get a card for 30 bucks that looks very similar to a card that sells for 15x more I very good value in the lower priced card.

[ALR-bishop]

If money was not the object, why would anyone give a darn about what someone else thinks about your cards or the cards you want to collect or the cards you buy. I am sure glad none of that bothers me one bit