Interesting trivia about 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards...show us some of these rare gems

[tedzan]

.


To begin with, I fully understand that some of you on this forum do not associate the 68 cards of the 1910 Coupon (T213-1) set with the
T206 set. And, that's fine, that's your prerogative.

Nevertheless, from my study of the T213-1 set, this set provides some interesting insights into the printing of the T206 350-only series.
Circa Winter of 1909, American Lithographic (ALC) started designing the T206 cards for their 350-only series production.

For more information for those of you interested in this COUPON set, check-out this thread....FYI....1910 COUPON checklist (T213-1)

Let's start this analysis with the Major Leaguers in the T213-1 set. Depicted here is my hypothetical arrangement of these 48 subjects in the
T213-1 set, which were derived from an early press run of the 350-only series of the T206's. Here's my theory..coincident with the print run
of this group of T206's in the 350-only series (circa Spring/Summer 1910), American Litho (ALC) received requests for cards for ATC's new
tobacco brand COUPON. So, ALC printed up several extra sheets of these 48 cards and printed their backs with the COUPON advertisement.







ALC introduced the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350.....BROAD LEAF 350.....CYCLE 350.....DRUM 350 backs during the 350-only series press
runs (circa Summer 1910). Note that the T213-1 back is the same stylistic design as the A-B-C-D design. But, there is an incongruent
factor which suggests that the T213-1 timeline precedes the A-B-C-D print run. Byrne, Mowrey, and Rossman (due to trades) were not
printed with the T206 A-B-C-D backs. However, these 3 guys are included in the 48 card group of Major Leaguers in the T213-1 set.
This fact suggests that the T213-1 cards were most likely printed and issued in the Spring of 1910. Very, very interesting.





Hey guys....if any one here has a DRUM card of Mr. Chase please contact me. I will offer in cash (and/or trade) a generous amount
in order to complete this A-B-C-C-D sub-set.


ALC introduced the POLAR BEAR backs during the 350 series press runs (circa Summer 1910). But, only 9 of these 48 subjects in the
T213-1 set were printed with POLAR BEAR backs. These 9 guys include the six super-prints and Willett (these guys were continued in
to the 350/460 series). Plus, Engle and LaPorte (perhaps because they played for the NY Highlanders). It is apparent in the structure
of the T206 set that ALC favored players on New York teams (since this Lithographic firm was based in downtown Manhattan).


The T213-1 cards are probably the scarcest of all the white-bordered tobacco sets. But, if you have them, why not show them here.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ValKehl]

"The T213-1 cards are probably the scarcest of all the white-bordered tobacco sets."

Probably not, Ted. The pop reports suggest that each of these white-bordered sets is scarcer than the T213-1 set: T214 Victory, T215-1 Red Cross, T215-2 Red Cross, T216 Mino, and T216 Virginia Extra.

[DeanH3]

LOVE T213-1's. These treasures are so frail, it's no wonder that a PSA/SGC 4 is the highest graded to date.

Ted, how many of each example do you guesstimate exist?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

"The T213-1 cards are probably the scarcest of all the white-bordered tobacco sets."

Probably not, Ted. The pop reports suggest that each of these white-bordered sets is scarcer than the T213-1 set: T214 Victory, T215-1 Red Cross, T215-2 Red Cross, T216 Mino, and T216 Virginia Extra.

Are we also including the T215 Pirate set?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

LOVE T213-1's. These treasures are so frail, it's no wonder that a PSA/SGC 4 is the highest graded to date.

Ted, how many of each example do you guesstimate exist?

Dean, I love that Mathewson.

[DeanH3]

Thank you Sean!

[Sean]

Ted, here's my only type-1:


scan0001.jpg

scan0002.jpg

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

"The T213-1 cards are probably the scarcest of all the white-bordered tobacco sets."

Probably not, Ted. The pop reports suggest that each of these white-bordered sets is scarcer than the T213-1 set: T214 Victory, T215-1 Red Cross, T215-2 Red Cross, T216 Mino, and T216 Virginia Extra.

Maybe he just meant "White Borders" in the formal hobby sense, as the name of the set. 1992 Bowman has white borders, but buying them doesn't make you a White Border collector. Still, T215-1 is a fair point as I'd say they belong to the set as much as T213-1s do.

[Rhotchkiss]

Dean, that Matty is beast!

Here is my one and only T213-1. A huge thanks to Jobu for selling me this; and I got to meet Bryan in person in a DC hotel to do the swap.

[Pat R]

Ted, while the T213-1 cards are all major or southern leaguers there
are a number of confirmed two name T206 cards that are a major
and a minor league subject and some of the major league subjects
are T213-1 subjects so I don't think ALC used the same sheets for
the coupons.

this is a list of the confirmed two name cards with a minor and major
league subject.

Atz - Hoffman (Providence)
Butler - Raymond
Jackson - Hoffman (ST. Louis)
Livingstone - Maloney
McGinley - Speaker
Moran, Herbie - Arrelanes
Barbeau - Strang
Graham (ST. Louis) - Clark (Columbus)
McGlynn - Jones (Detroit)
Lennox - Clancy
Pickering - Myers

Here's a collage that Chris did of some of the two name cards.
Two Name Group.jpg

[tedzan]

I only know of only 2 complete T213-1 sets. It is virtually impossible to put together this complete (68-card) set. Nevertheless, if you enjoy a challenge, I recommend
putting together a sub-set of T213-1 cards. For example, here is my Six Super Prints sub-set......


. .







.


Note the paper loss spot on the back of the Chase (dark cap) card. Many of the T213-1 cards are found with a similar type of paper loss spot.

These COUPON cigarettes were packaged in cartons (11" x 3" x 2") labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. My research indicates this paper loss is
due to some of the T213-1 cards having been pasted on these cartons.
No standard size cigarette packs of this new COUPON brand have been found. And, I do not think they exist. Perhaps, this is why ALC printed
these cards on a thinner stock of cardboard (these cards were not meant to serve as cigarette pack stiffeners).

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[buymycards]

Hi Ted,
Thank you for the excellent research. It is always interesting. I have to agree with you about the Type 1's being a part of the T206 set, and I also lean toward including the Type 1 T215's in with the T206's. Not that it really matters either way, because the designations will never change.

Rick

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Ted,
Thank you for the excellent research. It is always interesting. I have to agree with you about the Type 1's being a part of the T206 set, and I also lean toward including the Type 1 T215's in with the T206's. Not that it really matters either way, because the designations will never change.

Rick

Hi Rick

Thanks......and, I agree with you regarding the 1910 COUPON....T215-1....T206 sets.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Dean, that Matty is beast!

Here is my one and only T213-1. A huge thanks to Jobu for selling me this; and I got to meet Bryan in person in a DC hotel to do the swap.

Thanks Ryan. I bought it back in 2012 and I haven't seen another offered publicaly since. Population is still at total of 6 graded as well.

Your Evers is incredible. I love the colors on that pose.

[tedzan]

American Lithographic (ALC) printed 48 different Southern Leaguers (SL) in the T206 set......20 of which, represent the Southern Association.
ALC included these 20 guys in their printing of the T213-1 set.

One challenge you can try for is putting together a T213-1 SL same team sub-set.

Or, you can combine the T213-1 of your choice with its T206 counterparts to complete a back run. Anyway you play the game, you'll have fun







Southern Association checklist (20 subjects)

Bay........Nashville
Bernhard......Nashville
Breitenstein......New Orleans
Carey..........Memphis
Cranston......Memphis
Ellam.......Nashville
Fritz........New Orleans
Greminger.....Montgomery
Hart.........Montgomery
Hart......Little Rock
Hickman......Mobile
Jordan........Atlanta
Lentz.........Little Rock
Molesworth......Birmingham
Perdue.......Nashville
Persons......Montgomery
Reagan.......New Orleans
Rockenfeld......New Orleans
Smith........Atlanta
Thornton......Mobile








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[sb1]

Here's the only one I have left. For the record I too feel they should be included as part of the T206 set.

[edjs]

Ol' Ira Thomas. What can you say about him?

[tedzan]

Hey Glenn, Rick McQ and Scott B

The 4 of us appear to be in the minority on this forum....by considering the T213-1 (and T215-1) cards as an integral factor making up a complete T206 set


.



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

I'm going to be running out of T213-1 cards to display here....so, how's about showing off your T213-1 cards.
Let's see how many different ones we can post here.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated and rewarded....Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[DeanH3]

Wish I had more to show. Thanks for sharing yours. What's your guess on how many examples of each subject exist?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by DeanH3

Wish I had more to show. Thanks for sharing yours. What's your guess on how many examples of each subject exist?

Hi Dean

Referring to the SGC pop report data....common T213-1 cards range from one example to 4 examples.

The data for Cobb is 8 examples. But, it looks like some of these examples may have been re-submitted.

Other HOFer's range from 2 - 5 examples.

Perhaps some one else can decipher the PSA data for T213-1's, as I cannot.


__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated and will be rewarded......Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[ValKehl]

Ted, the PSA pop report shows a total of 102 graded. Here's the link to the detail: https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball...s-type-1/35312

[barrysloate]

I also think Burdick would have included the Type 1 Coupons in the T206 set, if Coupon hadn't issued series 2 and 3 a few years later. That complicated the matter, and he made the decision to designate all three Coupon series together as T213.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ted, the PSA pop report shows a total of 102 graded. Here's the link to the detail: https://www.psacard.com/pop/baseball...s-type-1/35312

Thanks, Val

This PSA data makes my point regarding the "scarcity" of the 1910 COUPON cards......

102 examples / 68 subjects = 1.5 card (average)

This sampling is even less than the SGC data.



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)


Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated and will be rewarded......Thanks guys.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[darwinbulldog]

Mmm mmm good.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I also think Burdick would have included the Type 1 Coupons in the T206 set, if Coupon hadn't issued series 2 and 3 a few years later. That complicated the matter, and he made the decision to designate all three Coupon series together as T213.

Hi Barry

Thanks for chiming in here; and, your point is a good one. And, welcome to " The 1910 COUPON club "

Furthermore, if I recall Burdick's notes correctly, he dated all three T213 sets as having been issued "1913 - 1914".
And of course, we now know that the T213-1 set is indeed a 1910 issue.


TED Z
.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Barry

Thanks for chiming in here; and, your point is a good one. And, welcome to " The 1910 COUPON club "

Furthermore, if I recall Burdick's notes correctly, he dated all three T213 sets as having been issued "1913 - 1914".
And of course, we now know that the T213-1 set is indeed a 1910 issue.


TED Z
.

Correct. He actually said 1914-15 but that, along with the back design and the fact there were three types of Coupons (Burdick actually only cited two), is the biggest reason I do not believe they were classified as T206. Even if he logistically wanted to call them T206s, he could not because of the dates he believed they were from.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Correct. He actually said 1914-15 but that, along with the back design and the fact there were three types of Coupons (Burdick actually only cited two), is the biggest reason I do not believe they were classified as T206. Even if he logistically wanted to call them T206s, he could not because of the dates he believed they were from.

Cozumeleno

Burdick was a genius to have accomplished what he did for the hobby (both sports and non-sports).

But, what is puzzling to me....is he apparently missed the clear distinction of the Brown-captioned T213-1 cards vs the Blue-captioned T213-2 and T213-3 cards.

American Lithographic switched to printing the captions using BLUE ink from 1913 - 1919 for these tobacco cards (T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215-2).


__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Cozumeleno]

Agree - he was way ahead of his time.

In my version of the ACC, he actually did separate the two as he notes a brown font version and a blue font version. What is interesting is that he did not note two separate types of blue-font cards for T213-2 and T213-3 and only says there are two types.

He obviously noted the brown font cards looked like T206 cards. He even says in the ACC that these were 'as T206.' I believe that if he knew the correct dating of the cards, we'd have a different classification. But as I said, he believed they were from 1914-15 and, thus, had no option. There was no way he could call them T206s. That, along with the identical backs to other T206s (i.e. Cycle, etc.), printing in the T206 years, the same fronts, is enough for me to believe the T213-1s are probably T206s. Just my opinion and I know others disagree.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Cozumeleno

Burdick was a genius to have accomplished what he did for the hobby (both sports and non-sports).

But, what is puzzling to me....is he apparently missed the clear distinction of the Brown-captioned T213-1 cards vs the Blue-captioned T213-2 and T213-3 cards.

American Lithographic switched to printing the captions using BLUE ink from 1913 - 1919 for these tobacco cards (T213-2, T213-3, T214, T215-2).


__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

..........That, along with the identical backs to other T206s (i.e. Cycle, etc.), printing in the T206 years, the same fronts, is enough for me to believe the T213-1s are probably T206s. Just my opinion and I know others disagree.

Ditto
I would venture to say that " The 1910 COUPON club " on this forum has possibly more believers than its critics would have guessed.



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)


Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Rossman is an interesting 350-only subject......

1st......he has been confirmed with only 4 backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN and the two SWEET CAPORAL backs). **

2nd.....and of course, he was printed with the 1910 COUPON back. But, not the A - B - C - D backs. Of which 45 of
the 48 other T213-1 Major Leaguers were printed with. Byrne and Mowrey are the other two in this same category.


.

.




** Note....it's been reported that this card has a TOLSTOI back, however after 12 years this has yet to be confirmed.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Rossman is an interesting 350-only subject......

1st......he has been confirmed with only 4 backs (PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN and the two SWEET CAPORAL backs). **

2nd.....and of course, he was printed with the 1910 COUPON back. But, not the A - B - C - D backs. Of which 45 of
the 48 other T213-1 Major Leaguers were printed with. Byrne and Mowrey are the other two in this same category.


.

.




** Note....it's been reported that this card has a TOLSTOI back, however after 12 years this has yet to be confirmed.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Rossman does exist with a Tolstoi Back

Rossman Tolstoi-1.jpg

[tedzan]

Pat

Thanks for posting the Rossman Tolstoi card. I've been searching for this card for over 10 years.

Suggestion....have SGC or PSA (or whichever grading co.) grade it, so it's recorded.


__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated and will be rewarded......Thanks guys.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

I wish it was mine Ted. A dealer was selling singles from a large group
he purchased and the Rossman was from that group but I missed the
auction. There were other cards that were/are unconfirmed that
came from that group of T206's too.

[tiger8mush]

I have 25, likely won't add any more. I believe Bender and Evers are my only two HOFers. Can see them all here ... https://www.flickr.com/photos/139478...57668902643359

(edited to add ... Higgins is the 3rd HOFer)

Here is one of the for those who don't like opening links

[Michael Peich]

Rob--Thank you for posting Hart, and for the link to your other T213-1s. Wow, what a collection you have, particularly of SLers.

Cheers,
Mike

[ctownboy]

Hello,

My only two Coupon cards; a Type 1 and a Type 2.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Hello,

My only two Coupon cards; a Type 1 and a Type 2.

Well, that's two Engles that we know of that haven't been graded.

[Rhotchkiss]

T213-1 cards are super cool, fact. Just my two cents.

What’s up Sean, how you been? We gotta catch up.

Ted, you going to be at philly show?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T213-1 cards are super cool, fact. Just my two cents.

What’s up Sean, how you been? We gotta catch up.

Ted, you going to be at philly show?

They are cool. And for anyone considering getting one: get it raw. They feel different from all other T206s and their cousins.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

T213-1 cards are super cool, fact. Just my two cents.

What’s up Sean, how you been? We gotta catch up.

Ted, you going to be at philly show?

Ryan

I will be set up at booth #412.

Look forward to seeing you.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Beansballcardblog]

I picked up my first T213-1 this week from a fellow Net54er. If you're interested in my blog post about it, you can read it here. It's the most I've ever spent on one card.

img156 by kekinsley, on Flickrimg157 by kekinsley, on Flickr

This puts me 3/4 of the way to my Scoops Carey "rainbow."

img158 by kekinsley, on Flickrimg159 by kekinsley, on Flickr

Eventually I'll work on the Woodie Thornton and Carlton Molesworth rainbows.

-kin

[Leon]

Nice little run there!!

Originally Posted by wvu_class_of_2001

I picked up my first T213-1 this week from a fellow Net54er. If you're interested in my blog post about it, you can read it here. It's the most I've ever spent on one card.

img156 by kekinsley, on Flickrimg157 by kekinsley, on Flickr

This puts me 3/4 of the way to my Scoops Carey "rainbow."

img158 by kekinsley, on Flickrimg159 by kekinsley, on Flickr

Eventually I'll work on the Woodie Thornton and Carlton Molesworth rainbows.

-kin

[Beansballcardblog]

Thanks, Leon. This is really the only place I have to "show off"
and brag. Maybe I'll bring it to one of the local shows and show you.
:-)

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice little run there!!

[The Nasty Nati]

My vote says this is a T206.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

My vote says this is a T206.

Thanks for chiming in here. And, welcome to " The 1910 COUPON club "


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

OK, so far we have posted 17 different Major Leaguers and 3 - Southern Association players in the 1910 COUPON set.

That's only about 30 % of the entire set. So, how's about showing us some more of these "rare birds".



,



__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
I'm still searching for these 3 cards to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)....DOYLE (portrait)....McGRAW (portrait-cap)

Any help finding these cards is greatly appreciated....Thanks guys.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[botport]

Mr. Zanidakis,

A question for you. If for the purpose of this hypothetical a T213-1 was considered a T206, where would you rate it in terms of back scarcity ?

Sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, also thanks for all of your informative posts.

Frank

[Rhotchkiss]

Congrats Kin, great loooking card.

Ted, great seeing you in philly. Next time I will get there Friday- everything is picked over by Sunday. Keep up the great t206 (and t213/t215) work, we all appreciate the insight and enjoy the reads.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by botport

Mr. Zanidakis,

A question for you. If for the purpose of this hypothetical a T213-1 was considered a T206, where would you rate it in terms of back scarcity ?

Sorry if you have answered this elsewhere, also thanks for all of your informative posts.

Frank

I think that it would rate after Lenox but ahead of Broadleaf 350 or Carolina Brights. Similar to a Red Hindu I suppose. What do you think Ted?