The 2006 National

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Posted By: ErikV

I just got back from Wednesday's "Sneak Peek" at the National. Don't know what anyone else thought, but I was a bit disappointed with the show. The show itself was smaller than the previous Anaheim National (in 2000). LOTS of new glossy/shiney stuff. Many tables selling non-sports related memorabilia (ie football helmets, jerseys, movie posters, etc). There were even a handful of empty tables.

Attendance was light. However, I did hear several dealers comment that they were pleased with their sales thus far. The autograph section seemed to be busy. At one point they were turning people away due to time constraints.

The corporate booths had several nice displays. Sotheby's had a nice group of T4's which will be featured in their upcoming October auction.

PSA had the McNall/Gretsky PSA 8 Honus Wagner card on display.

I think it was American Memoribila had a 1930's Babe Ruth jersey on display which will be going up on their next auction.

I also saw the group of Old Judge cards from the "Indianapolis Find." I was amazed at the condition of the cards! (Many of the cards had excellent clarity and rich color.)

There was plenty of 50's, 60's and 70's (and newer) baseball cards.

There was a decent amount of pre-war cards including T206. Saw a few T210's and T222's. Not much in the way of PCL.

I met a number of Net54 members and did take some pics. (I'll try to have them posted by the weekend.) I'm hoping the show warms up some as the weekend approaches!

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Posted By: Cobby33

Erik-
Thanks for the update. Please see my email. Thanks.

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Posted By: Bob

Thanks Erik, keep the reports coming!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

and I think he was almost too polite on the assessment. Other than Terry Knouse and Brockelman/Luckey tables there are sparse pickins on vintage stuff out here. On one side, there were at least 20-25 booths that weren't occupied. I think that so much goes to auction that it's really hurting the show. Also.....whoever the BONEHEADS are that schedule the National the same week as the HOF inductions, need to wise up if they want this show to continue (or return to) being a profitable venture for all.

All the dealers I talked to were having good shows although they said most all they'd sold was prior to the doors opening. Anyway, guess it'll wind up in more sightseeing time in San Diego on Fri/Sat.......

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Posted By: barrysloate

If they sold most of their stuff before the doors opened that just means they were selling to each other. Those don't count as real retail sales.

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Posted By: Cobby33

And it probably means that stuff is still out there, just at a different table (hopefully).

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Posted By: peter ullman

...just at a different table...and at a higher price...right?


pete in mn

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Posted By: J Levine

Got there a little early and waited in line until I was frustrated and left my friends in line and went into the show around 3:30. Glad I did as I did find a few friendly dealers and one major find for me. I also got to meet Leon, Scott, Bill, Bruce, and a few others in person.

Ran into Roger Neufeldt who had a nice selection of stuff including a section marked "ungradeable and priced to sell." Sitting among the stuff was a T205 Kleinow that PSA rejected for being "short/shaved edge." If it was, it was a master job because the card is beautiful and fit nicely into my collection esp. for the $25 price tag!!!!! Now I just need two Hobblitzells and the darn Wilhelm upgrade.

Here is what a lot of digging and searching got me for my $300 on the first day. No scans yet...

T205s Kleinow, Harmon 1 ear, and a fact. 25
2 1909 Obaks super beat with tape and trimming, and stains.
1 1911 Obak low grade but presentable
1 1953 Dixie Lid Premium Connie Ryan (from Trevor's table eventhough he was not there at the time...)
1 Globe Clothing card Phillie w. a punch hole
1 E126 low grade
1 E120 mid grade
1 E220 low grade
1 PCL Popcorn card low grade
1 E93 Ames low grade

$9 Parking

Looking forward to more time at the show today and seeing more Net54 friends.

Joshua

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Posted By: Mark Holt

Thanks for the write ups guys....those of us (supposedly) working enjoy the reads...

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Posted By: jP

Thanks for the updates guys. I really thought i was going to be able to go to this years national but doesnt look that way. My young son is home with me this summer.

****** IF ANYONE IS WILLING TO LOOK FOR FRANK ARELLANES (sometimes spelled Arrelanes) CARDS FOR ME I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT , IM ESPECIALLY LOOKING FOR HIS 1911 T212 OBAK AND ZEENUTS FROM 1911-1917. D310, T204,HOMERUN KISSES. I HAVE DONE A FEW TRANSACTIONS WITH SOME MEMBERS HERE WITH NO PROBLEMS I ASSURE I AM GOOD FOR IT, THANKS IN ADVANCE.

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Posted By: Bobby

Here are some pictures

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17&st=0&#entry38

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Posted By: Chad

What's Mr. Mint wearing? Eating? Did any of you sell him your cards?

Aw, just kidding. I'm just jealous I'm not there. Hope you guys are having fun.

--Chad

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Posted By: Bob

What's the attendance like now that it has reached Thursday? From all reports so far it sounds like I was better off taking the cost of the airline ticket, motel and meals bills, Dodger tickets and parking and car rental, etc. and spending it for cards on ebay and BST. I hate that there is such slim pickings on prewar cards and that the PCL stuff like Obaks, Zeenuts, Bakery cards, etc. is almost nonexistent...

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Posted By: jackgoodman

Did pass by Mr. Mint's table and yes he was sitting there with some people and eating. Strangely, no show cases and apparently nothing to sell (I left before the evening officially started, so that may have changed). Guess he just gets to sit in front of the main door and grab people coming in with boxes and bags. Sure hope they are at least charging him an excessive table fee for the privilege.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bobby's pictures reveal a very thin crowd. If they were taken Wednesday, it's to be expected. But if that's Thursday's crowd it's not very encouraging.

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Posted By: Bobby

We will be putting up some more picture from today those where yesterday. Crowds are heavier today.

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Posted By: Alan

If the crowds don't come tomorrow and Saturday, there won't be a next time for the national there !!!

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Posted By: JimB

I thought there was a pretty good selection of pre-war stuff. There were a lot more caramels this year than in the past. THough they are expensive, at least they are there. I remember even six or seven years ago not finding a single E93 card. I guess the high prices have more people ready to sell.
JimB

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Posted By: quan

there were quite a few caramels out there, i saw plenty of e90-1 commons, e92s, a few nice midgrade e93s (EX+ pastorius, leach, etc), and even ur favorite e94s and e98s. most of the action was at wayne varner's table, but there were others spread out.

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Posted By: Brett

Hey J Levine,

Thinking of selling that e93 Ames ?

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Posted By: Bob

Thanks Quan. What are the prices like on the E94s and E98s? I've seen Wayne's prices, anyone else selling anything?
Last year the place to be for good prices on nice caramel cards was Gary Nucherino's table. Just got an email from Gary that he is not there. John Billngsley's table was also a good place to frequent with nice cards and good prices. Other than a couple of caramels which I paid too much for from Wayne Varner last year, that was about it. Without Gary there (is John B. there?) , I can see how caramels might be sparse except for the guys asking bazillions for the few they have.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Hey Quan,

Can you email me and let me know what prices were being asked for on the e93s. Thanks.

jkrasner@maupintaylor.com

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Posted By: Bob

Quan- After seeing the poorly centered SGC 60 Davis go for over a grand tonight on ebay, you might keep an eye open for E97s also. If you can find a decent Rossman, let me know!

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Posted By: quan

varner had the most as usual, his prices was about 10-15% higher than market i thought but the cards went really fast, some very nice cards on his table. john b is there although he doesn't have as much as years before. bob i still see a few e94s left, i think an olive jennings sgc20 for $325...lmk if u might need it bob u can probably bargain down to $300. i did not ask for e93 pricing. while walking with pete and wayne we also saw about a G e98 bridwell for $140 up for grabs. my goal is to buy something before the show ends, even if it's an '89 topps gregg jefferies FUTURE STAR.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Quan, the 1988 Donruss Jefferies is a much better looking card - it's probably worth picking up that one instead of the Topps even though it might set you back twice as much.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Thursday at the National was pretty fun. I could tell a lot of stories about today but rather than bore everyone I'll just tell this one...

You know that you've read this bull-board a few too many times when you can guess who someone is just by what kind of cards they have. I was at the SGC tables with a friend of mine. Next to me sat a collector that had a combination of boxing cards and a Lefty O'Doul card. Guess who... yup, I was right about who it was... I never met him before but it seemed quite obvious who it was... I'm sure most of you can guess who it is.

It didn't seem too crowded today. I thought there'd be more people there. I'm not complaining because it made navigating the tables much easier.

19th Century Report - There were a few tables with different items but the most seemed to be distributed between two tables. No big secret on who had the most OJs available - Think Indy Find and add to that some of the Oregon Find and other cards (Dave Levin). TIK had a nice assortment of material but nothing like he brings to a Fort Washington show. That's not to say I didn't drool over what he had in his cases. There were a few other tables with nice material but the highest concentrations of the stuff was at Levin's and TIKs tables.

The auction houses had a lot of preview material for show and tell but that's more of a teaser because it wasn't for sale.

Overall, due to the small crowd it was really nice. At least to me it seemed like a small crowd for a show of this caliber. K.C., you'd have enjoyed this I'm sure.

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Posted By: ralph

Judge,
I have no idea who the mystery is
Do tell

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Posted By: Bob

Bobby- Let's see some more pictures!

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ralph,

The collector of boxing and Lefty is none other than Adam Warshaw.

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Posted By: paul stratton

I just got back about an hour ago. I thought the show was pretty average at best. Plenty of t206's if that's your thing. PSA 5's for $200. Tik had some amazing stuff. Leon and Scott B's table had a lot of action. I saw some of the caramel's but thought they were overpriced(in relation to ebay). A lot of them I had seen on ebay in the past. Pretty sparse crowds for a National imo.

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Posted By: Bob

That's what the brains get for taking the National out of the geographical middle of the country. The three shows I have been to, St. Louis, Dallas (Arlington) and Chicago had great crowds. (I realize Texas is in the South) Putting the shows on by locating them on either the eastern or western seaboards doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Posted By: DJ

Aren't shows in some degrees a thing of the past regardless of where they are located? Some of the best shows that I have ever been to where located in the west--especially the Anaheim show of the early 1990's. With the invention of ebay and the internet, my lazy ass didn't feel like making the trek. Sure you get to meet people and exchange greetings with those who you know only by the log in names, but when you are in the search for pre-war, there is only a smidge of what you had hoped. I think the fact that a large majority of the stuff is shiny (gross) and along the autograph avenue...why does Comic-Con work so well to get 70,000+ people to that every year. I went two years ago because I was in town and I was like...this is what the National used to be. I was also terrified as a guy with a sword spoke in a strange language to me and the sight of female was nowhere to be had....

DJ

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Posted By: CCespedes

Hey it was great meeting you guys last night at the dinner. You all seem like a bunch of cool cats

We posted some more pics: http://www.vintagecardprices.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17&st=0&gopid=40&#entry40

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I am writing this from the hotel adjacent to the convention center. I've been to all days of the show thus far.

I'd say there is less prewar (WWI) material here than at the last two Nationals. It has been very hit and miss. I had a huge hit on day 1 (the "holy grail" of Lefty O'Doul cards, Pebble Beach Clothiers; thanks Mark), and since then only a few things of note. The dealer base of the show is definitely not as large as the shows in CHI and CLE. I'd say 20% of the table are manufactured memorabilia, 40% are shiny new crap, 20% are postwar vintage, 10% are vintage memorabilia, and 10% have significant prewar cards. You do a lot of walking between interesting tables. There are large areas of the floor that are more or less dead zones. I was also surprised at the apparent number of dealer no-shows. I counted at least 10 tables that were set up with name plates but empty and several spaces where tables had been set up on Wed-Thurs and surreptitiously removed by Friday. A couple of boxing collectors enterprisingly homesteaded a vacant space; gonna have to try that next year.

Prices are all over the place. Many dealers are over ebay in pricing (call it a convenience factor) but there are bargains out there, too, it just takes ridiculous digging. I picked up some really nice 1940 Play Ball HOFers, some T206 HOFers, some Zeenuts and Obaks, about a dozen Exhibits for my sets, a nice Sid Gordon autograph, autographed PCs of Cool Papa Bell and Judy Johnson, a check from the 1927 Yankees signed by Ruppert and Barrow and used to pay World Series expenses, and some nice boxing stuff.

For those who did not come, you really missed some great evening socializing. The Mastro party was fantastic. They held it in a private museum in L.A. which just blew everyone's minds. The attendees were a who's who of collecting (and schmucks like me too). The N54 dinner last night was really nice, too, although I was so worn out from the prior evenings' social engagements and bar closings that I was not entirely awake for it.

Edited to add: it sounds like I got a lot of stuff but it was big lot hits at individual tables rather than single items culled from a broad base of tables.

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Posted By: vertigojumps

Nice pics!
Who's the seller of the Cap Anson cabinet and the Ryan N173?

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Posted By: boysblue

When were those pictures taken, 'cause I am wondering where the heck everybody is...

If Cleveland is no better next year then the powers-that-be had better rethink their current list of venues.

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Posted By: bobby

The Anson card is at Tik-Tak table.

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Posted By: Bob

Geez, it's bad enough that prewar cards are in short supply and crowds are sparse, but I wish they would ban those bulky backpacks from the floor. Lots of people strap those things on and haven't a clue who they back in to, smash against or impede. Call me old school, I hate those things....

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Posted By: Anonymous

next year the national should be in Oklahoma and everyone has to go naked?

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Posted By: Bob

Awww, it's 100 degrees here again today and I am just grumpy as hell. I'd like to see the National in Dallas (Arlington) again some time though. It was extremely well run, great show....

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Posted By: Rhys

The ultimate question is this. WHO IS THE NATIONAL FOR ANYWAYS. It used to be for the collectors and buyers, but today is is produced for the dealers and Auction houses. Thus, the biggest problem with the National is its elitist mentality. Who here would rather have a 500 table show of professional dealers and Auction houses who each have to pay $1500 to set up, as opposed to a 2000 table show of collectors, dealers, and anyone who wants to set up and have a good time at about $200 per table? Most of the really good stuff I have ever got from shows has been from Joe Schmoe who has been doing this forever but just decided to set up at a show again and bring some of his stuff out, not from the same dealer who is always there.

Other collectibles go for volume and atmosphere when setting up an event like this, but for some reason the National goes for high end dealers and autograph guests and tries to limit numbers of dealers.

I would buy a table at the National EVERY year if it cost $200 and the show was MUCH bigger. So why dont we have this? Ask the big dealers who do not want the low overhead competition at these shows where people are itching to spend money. And who sets up the National? It is simple economics that benefits the big dealers and ultimately hurts the consumers and the hobby in general.

Just my opinion, but cut the table prices by about 75% and get 4 times the tables and I think the crowds will come.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Dallas in July could be cool.

won't have to worry much about what the other attendee is wearing either

see ya'll in Cleveland.

happy hunting.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Other than networking I'm not sure any show, the National included, is that important anymore. There is more stuff to buy on ebay or at any major auction than there is at any show. I used to attend shows regularly. I stopped years ago.

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Posted By: Alan

I agree with Rhys. The national is really becoming just a big auction house, PSA/SGC/GAI/others grader, & dealer preview exhibit show. Plus, there are all these dinners, parties, get togethers, social stuff, etc,...

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Posted By: Brad Green

Who organizes the National? Is it a committee? Who decides where the National will be? And more importantly, who gets all of the profits from the National???

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

A good Fort Washington show could compete with the National in L.A. as far a vintage material is concerned. Cheaper set up, more east coast dealers with great material = a great show.

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Posted By: Alan

Fred is absolutely right. The Ft. Washington show is really a smaller version of a good national !!!

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Posted By: Bob

Any thoughts on whether the so-called "International" held in Cleveland last month by many of last year's National group and who split with the Anaheim group, affected the National? I wonder if any of the dealers out there mentioned this....

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Posted By: JimB

Personally, I had a lot of fun at the National this year. I picked up a few cards and met more board members. The dinner last night was great - and sponsored by Rob Lifson (REA). Thanks Rob.
JimB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I spent 3 full days roaming the show(Wed-Fri) and I thought it was terrific--lot of pre-war material there as well as stuff I had never seen before. Most of the larger dealers were there. Lot of collectors there Wednesday all day which as someone mentioned may have been the heaviest sales day.

Attendance 35,000 I think. Every dealer I spoke with was happy with his sales.

Nighttime entertainment was big time as well with Mastro and PSA having parties Thursday and Memory Lane and GAI last night. PSA luncheon on Friday had about 125.