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  #1  
Old 08-06-2011, 08:55 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default ALERT....Re-fronted (re-backed) Green Cobb with a Red HINDU back at the National

I just got back from Chicago. The talk of the show (besides the theft) was this Cobb front / back NO-NO that was submitted to PSA for grading.
Those who saw this card at the show (prior to submission), said it was quite professionally done, as it looked authentic.

FORTUNATELY, PSA REJECTED THIS CARD.
I emphasize this since a bunch of these re-fronted T206's did get graded by both PSA and SGC when they first surfaced....they were that good.

This card was most likely the same one that was in circulation around 10 (or more) years ago when a rash of these professionally altered T206's
first surfaced in the hobby.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 08-08-2011 at 06:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:33 AM
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Default Re-fronted (re-backed) Green Cobb with a Red HINDU back at the National

If you are new to the T206 game, here are the 7 backs that the green Cobb was printed with........

PIEDMONT 150
PIEDMONT 350
SOVEREIGN 150
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 25
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 30
SWEET CAP 350, Factory 30
OLD MILL


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 08-07-2011 at 11:46 AM.
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
If you are new to the T206 game, here are the 8 backs that the green Cobb was printed with........

PIEDMONT 150
PIEDMONT 350
SOVEREIGN 150
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 25
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 30
SWEET CAP 350, Factory 30
brown HINDU
OLD MILL


TED Z
03/14/2011

"YOU PASSED THE TEST !

I threw that "Brown HINDU" Cobb out there to see how long it would take before someone caught me on this ?

I took 2 hrs and 19 mins.....very slow response."
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:50 AM
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OK....touche !

Thanks Tim

I'm still suffering from "National fatigue" .... it will take me another day to return to normal.

The show was pretty good....buying and selling.

Regards,

TED Z
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  #5  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:03 PM
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Default ALERT....Re-fronted (re-backed) Green Cobb with a Red HINDU back at the National

I have received a couple of emails asking why this green Cobb / red HINDU front/back combination is impossible ?



[linked image][linked image]



The Green Cobb was printed in the very 1st Series of T206's. The "150 Subjects" backs circa Summer of 1909. And,
was printed circa Fall/Winter of 1909 with its "350 Subjects" backs. Therefore, it is classified as a 150/350 subject.

The Red HINDU cards were printed circa Winter of 1910 (or early 1911) and only include subjects from the 350/460
series and the 460-only series subjects.

Therefore, based on these timelines a green Cobb / red HINDU card is an impossible printing.


Here is a link to a previous Net54 (Jan 2005) discussion on this subject......

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...red+hindu+back




TED Z
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abravefan11 View Post
03/14/2011

"you passed the test !

I threw that "brown hindu" cobb out there to see how long it would take before someone caught me on this ?

I took 2 hrs and 19 mins.....very slow response."
lol

Last edited by wonkaticket; 08-08-2011 at 01:53 PM.
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  #7  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:15 PM
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I am thinking this is authentic, Inside T206 doesn't list it as known (I know its a bit outdated).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RedHindu.jpg (77.8 KB, 1807 views)
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  #8  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:46 PM
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Chris my friend, you've opened a can of worms with that card.

Yes, the red Cobb/red Hindu is a good front back combo unlike the green Cobb/red Hindu. The problem with the card you posted is it's presumed to have come from a known card doctor and many people suspect that it has been altered, however few of these people have actually viewed the card in person. So though their concerns are valid they have no real evidence this card is no good. It has been authenticated by PSA, but other impossible front/back cards have passed the TPG's in the past so it's not a stretch to think that a rebacked or refronted card is in a holder. My hope is that another red Cobb/red Hindu will surface and make this example moot.
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Last edited by Abravefan11; 08-08-2011 at 03:52 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:10 AM
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Hi Tim-

Is it presumed that the Red Cobb/ Red Hindu came from a card doctor, or is it a known fact ? Just wondering....not sure of the details behind the card, but damn- it looks "too good" to be re-backed (or should I say re-fronted ).

The fact that the TPG graded it adds a little to the mystery........if it's a Frankenstien it's a damn good one

I also would love to see another come around to squash the doubt, seeing that it is a possible F/B combo.

Sincerely, Clayton
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  #10  
Old 08-09-2011, 02:32 PM
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Default ALERT....Re-fronted (re-backed) Green Cobb with a Red HINDU back at the National

OK.....since this thread has switched tracks from the Green Cobb line to the Red Cobb line, I am reprising the previous discussion regarding this Red Cobb
that was posted in a Jan 2010 thread. Check it out......

Where have all the Cobb HINDU's gone.....?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ndu%27s&page=2


I have not accepted this red Cobb/red HINDU card as an original T206 from the first time I've seen it. It's provenance cannot be traced prior to circa mid-
to-late 1990's (the period of time when re-fronted T206 cards first surfaced).
I have collected 1000's of T206's, have seen at least another 50,000 T206's since 1981....but, no red HINDU Cobb. Sure, you can say that my T206 expe-
rience is anecdotal; however, multiply it by dozens of other "dinosaur" T206 collectors like me and none of us can account for such a card.

Incidently, here is my first red HINDU card of 6 that I have owned. I acquired this Donlin back in the 1980's.


[linked image]
[linked image]



POST SCRIPT....in the past year I have been privy to certain inside info regarding this red HINDU red Cobb card which further reinforces my skepticism of it.


TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 08-09-2011 at 07:22 PM.
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  #11  
Old 08-09-2011, 02:43 PM
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Default personally

Quote:
Originally Posted by atx840 View Post
I am thinking this is authentic, Inside T206 doesn't list it as known (I know its a bit outdated).
Personally I think this Red Cobb red Hindu is real. Not that it passed a TPG but it also passed Rob Lifson and he's pretty good at spotting issues with cards. Also, so far, I have not seen a re-backed T206 or other T card that looked that good, with no wrinkles or creases at all. I don't confess to be a T206 expert and have not held that card in hand though. regards

and one other thing...the owner who consigned it to REA isn't a card doctor, I don't think, though a doctor could have owned it at some point....
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2011, 03:33 PM
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Leon

No, the guy who consigned this card is not a "card doctor" ...... however, he is just one of several who have owned this card since its first appearance
approx. 10 years ago.

Under magnification, you will see what appears to be a laminate line across and just below the top border of this card....very, very suspicious.


Regards,

TED Z
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2011, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teetwoohsix View Post
Is it presumed that the Red Cobb/ Red Hindu came from a card doctor, or is it a known fact ?
What I stated in my earlier post was that I have been told that the card came from a known card doctor. Meaning it was created and then made it's way into the hobby. Who submitted it to PSA or consigned it to REA? I don't know and mean in no way to imply they were the person accused of doctoring the card.

Objectively looking at the T206 set, the printing process and how the subsets were produced show the red Cobb/red Hindu to be a possible back. Other red Hindu subjects have yet to surface that I believe will eventually as well. For reasons I won't get into now there is a small subset of red Hindu subjects that are very scarce in relation to other subjects with the same back and Cobb is in this group.

I'm with Leon and side with the posted example being good. I won't condemn it on hearsay and will gladly change my opinion when someone produces something tangible to prove it isn't good.

And as I've said many times before I don't care how many T206's someone has seen, held, or claimed to have collected, they haven't seen them all. There are many more new examples to come.

All the best.
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  #14  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:10 PM
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Default Red HINDU Cobb

The red Cobb exists with the BROAD LEAF 460; and, according to my theory presented in this thread......

"Near final confirmation of the BROAD LEAF 460 & Red HINDU matched "twins"

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...+460+red+hindu

....the red Cobb should have been printed with a red HINDU back. However, I'd venture to say that the red Cobb is a rule breaker in this
case.
Therefore, I would not put any stock in ever finding a legitimate red Cobb with a red HINDU back.

Finally, there are many of us long-time T206 collectors/dealers in this hobby. Guys like Bill Heitman, Irv Lerner, Don Flewelling, Tom Faith,
Mark Macrae (and many more) who between us have seen 100's of 1000's of T206 cards in the past 40 years. Never has any of us seen
any of the four T206 Cobb's with either a brown or red HINDU back. Why Cobb was not inserted in HINDU cigarette packs remains a very
strange mystery.


TED Z
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  #15  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Why Cobb was not inserted in HINDU cigarette packs remains a very strange mystery.

TED Z
It's not a mystery at all. You just don't understand the set well enough to make sense out of it.
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  #16  
Old 08-09-2011, 08:27 PM
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the scary part is that the green cobb / red hindu fake was so good that it took a lot of scrutiny for it to get rejected.

Is the same amount of time being put in by the TPGs when they look at lower-value submissions, like a low-grade T206 of Matty or WJ with a common back that sells for a few hundred bucks?
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  #17  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:00 AM
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Thanks Tim for the response.

And I tend to think the Red Cobb/Red Hindu is legit. It's just my opinion, nothing more.

Sincerely, Clayton
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  #18  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:13 AM
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Default Ted Z

POST SCRIPT....in the past year I have been privy to certain inside info regarding this red HINDU red Cobb card which further reinforces my skepticism of it.


TED Z (quote, post#10)

Is this information classified? Please share with us what you know?
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:31 AM
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Default Clayton

The source of the "inside info" regarding this particular Cobb card asked me not to reveal his name or the details of it.
He is a very well-respected person in the hobby who has some very interesting knowledge on the history of this card.

Anyhow, it's my understanding, that there are others in the hobby who also know of the details and may chime in here.


TED Z
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Old 08-10-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The source of the "inside info" regarding this particular Cobb card asked me not to reveal his name or the details of it.
He is a very well-respected person in the hobby who has some very interesting knowledge on the history of this card.

Anyhow, it's my understanding, that there are others in the hobby who also know of the details and may chime in here.


TED Z
Ted Z-

This is a frustrating thing- it's like "why bring it up then?"

Sincerely, Clayton
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  #21  
Old 08-10-2011, 12:15 PM
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Default I stand corrected

I stand corrected on my earlier post in this thread. I received a phone call today telling me the card in question has potential dubious beginnings and is not trustworthy. I did not know this before today. The card is most likely not good and the person who bought it from REA has been apprised of the situation. I don't really know any more details that are firm so that is all I will say for now. I feel it important to correct myself when I find new information out. I learn something new everyday. regards
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Old 08-10-2011, 01:02 PM
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Default Leon

Reflections of CASABLANCA

Bogart to Paul Henreid and Ingrid Bergman in the final scenes......

Rick says......"Here are the letters of transit"

Victor Laszlo....."Thanks. I appreciate it.

Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will prevail."


Leon.....welcome to the this red Cobb "skeptics club"


Best regards,

TED Z

Last edited by tedzan; 08-10-2011 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 03:43 PM
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Leon, how did you not know this card had dubious beginnings prior to today? I'm more than OK with you changing your position based on new information you may have received privately but you certainly knew the controversy and about the suspected dubios origins prior to today. You did read this thread prior to posting your original thoughts correct?
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  #24  
Old 08-10-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Leon, how did you not know this card had dubious beginnings prior to today? I'm more than OK with you changing your position based on new information you may have received privately but you certainly new the controversy and about the suspected dubios origins prior to today. You did read this thread prior to posting you original thoughts correct?
How didn't I know something? What kind of question is that? IF I had heard that person's name, who owned it previous to the consignor, I would have known to be very, very skeptical of this card. I only knew the consignor as he and I had made a deal and he accepted it, for this very card. Then the deal didn't go through and he consigned it to REA. You yourself said you thought it was good too and you seem to know a lot about it? Help me understand that please?
I just found out who the person was that had it in their possession a long time ago , before the consignor to REA. That name doesn't instill any confidence at all in the card being legit. Does that make sense?
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:44 PM
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Your post stated you didn't know until today the card could have dubious origins. I was simply stating you had to have known that this card was potentially dubious based on this and other threads on your own board.

Let's be honest and not BS about what this guy said or that guy said. I know who talked to you today and all you have is what they told you. This card could be junk but don't act ignorant like you aren't aware as of today and then change gears that now you're in the know.
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  #26  
Old 08-10-2011, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
The source of the "inside info" regarding this particular Cobb card asked me not to reveal his name or the details of it.
He is a very well-respected person in the hobby who has some very interesting knowledge on the history of this card.

Anyhow, it's my understanding, that there are others in the hobby who also know of the details and may chime in here.


TED Z
Sorry to quote this again, but here's one of the problems with this situation. We have a card that is a possible front & back combo, in a graded TPG holder (I know I know), and we have a "very well-respected person in the hobby" who gives you "inside information" and asks you not to reveal his name or any of the details.

I guess I'm confused about why the shroud of secrecy regarding the card?

Wouldn't a well respected person in the hobby want the details of this card to be known about by anyone who collects these cards ?

This can easily be done while remaining anonymous.

And, if the card is not legit- wouldn't PSA buy the card back from the current owner and destroy it?

Sincerely, Clayton
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:48 PM
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Default Clayton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I stand corrected on my earlier post in this thread. I received a phone call today telling me the card in question has potential dubious beginnings and is not trustworthy. I did not know this before today. The card is most likely not good and the person who bought it from REA has been apprised of the situation. I don't really know any more details that are firm so that is all I will say for now. I feel it important to correct myself when I find new information out. I learn something new everyday. regards
Did you bother to read this post by Leon ?

As I understand it, Leon's post is very similar to mine. Perhaps Leon will provide you a more satisfactory answer.

I respect the privacy of my source and will not reveal any more than what I have already said.


TED Z
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Did you bother to read this post by Leon ?

As I understand it, Leon's post is very similar to mine. Perhaps Leon will provide you a more satisfactory answer.

I respect the privacy of my source and will not reveal any more than what I have already said.


TED Z
For some unknown reason he doesn't believe me. I guess I made up what I said just to cause an argument? Makes sense to me.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:17 PM
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I just HAVE to go to next years National Net54 get-together. If this thread is any indication, the dinner must be incredible to participate in!!
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  #30  
Old 08-10-2011, 06:37 PM
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Default Soap Opera!

WTF? Self serving, pompous, arrogant, self proclaimed experts! You know who you are! F*ck all y'all! Anyone who knows the facts about this card yet does'nt want them revealed is NOT a "well respected person in this hobby"!
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Old 08-10-2011, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
For some unknown reason he doesn't believe me. I guess I made up what I said just to cause an argument? Makes sense to me.
Leon-

This doesn't have anything to do with me not believing you. There's apparently a "story" behind this card that I guess only certain priveleged people are supposed to know about.

What are collectors supposed to base credibility on when it comes to a legit front and back combo? Maybe what "Trapper Jack" said?

Anyhow, I just want to know if it's a legit card or not, not looking to pick fights, or decipher posts to figure out if this PSA slabbed Red Cobb/Red Hindu is the real deal or not.

And, for the sake of "the hobby" I would hope well respected people would want to point out the fraud- not just to "select few" but to all........

Sincerely, Clayton

Last edited by teetwoohsix; 08-11-2011 at 12:16 AM. Reason: correcting "Trapper "
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:17 PM
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Default some of the story

I don't feel I should get other folks involved in this by revealing names. That being said here are a few things that might shed some light. This Red Hindu Red Cobb was consigned by a hobby-friend of mine that used to have some high end cards but is out of the hobby now. When I said I thought it was real, in this thread, it prompted a call to me. I just don't want to say who it was without his approval...and my guess is that he would rather not reveal his name as I doubt he wants the questions and obvious angst to go towards him as some in this thread have shown. Can anyone blame him? This person told me after the card was sold in auction that the buyer was made aware of the situation and did go back to PSA for a resolution. I don't know where that stands nor do I really care. Of course it's important for the buyer to know the story and I think he does. That is really all that mattered to me.

For Tim to say I was BS'ing about what I said is absolutely insane. What motive would I have for saying something that isn't true? It makes no sense whatsoever. I could actually give a rat's ass about the whole thing. I have no skin in the game. I could care less.

And one other thing. I had actually made a deal for that Red Cobb Red Hindu with the consignor to REA. At literally the 11th hour the seller backed out of the deal. If I am not mistaking I even told Lichtman, privately, that I was getting that card. I was going to pay 30k+ for it but felt it was worth it. At any rate I hope that helps a little bit. I know how it is when folks won't divulge things and beat around the bush. Hope my thoughts help a little bit. regards
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Last edited by Leon; 08-10-2011 at 09:09 PM. Reason: typo and amendment to take out erroneous statements
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  #33  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:25 PM
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wow, this has turned into a train wreck...

Why do some people get sour grapes if they are not "in the loop"

I have never met Ted, but i respect his opinion more then anyone else on this subject. Questioning Ted on T206 is like question Gretzky on hockey, Jordan on Basketball.. well you get the idea...

Now back to my popcorn!

Continue gents! I need to be entertained.
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It is better to be quiet and thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt!!
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  #34  
Old 08-10-2011, 08:30 PM
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Thanks Leon-

I respect the fact that you shed some light on a little of the background of the card. I really wasn't interested in anyones names (well, maybe the card doctor ), just the info on the card. I appreciate your post.

Sincerely, Clayton
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  #35  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:09 PM
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Default one last update

One last update to correct myself (yet again). Two mistakes in the same day, a new record for me.

When I had mentioned the back was positively identified from another card and the card was previously owned by an alleged card doctor, both of those statements were incorrect. I misconstrued what was told to me. The person just called back and clarified a few things. He believes in Ted's analysis of the reasoning the card is not good. The rest of the stuff I wrote is correct and most of it was first hand. Sometimes when I listen to multiple accounts of cards, I get my wires crossed. As much as I didn't want to have to do this post, I have to. I have no choice. One thing I won't do is spread false info or tell stories. I can't even remember truths all of the time and I am sure as hell not going to tell lies and have to remember them. That is all on this subject. My apology for my misunderstanding. regards
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Last edited by Leon; 08-10-2011 at 09:11 PM. Reason: a few typos
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  #36  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:33 PM
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Leon your castigating me after PMing requesting to talk about this issue is not only funny but sad. You stated that you had no idea this card was bad prior to the conversation you had with an anonymous source today. I simply stated that if you had read this thread or any previous regarding this card that you would already know this and whatever you learnered today couldn't be a new revalation.

Feel free to beat up on me but I will continue to post honest, fact based information in the face of myths conjecture and exaggerations until you ban me.
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  #37  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Chris my friend, you've opened a can of worms with that card.
I just thought it was pretty.
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  #38  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abravefan11 View Post
Leon your castigating me after PMing requesting to talk about this issue is not only funny but sad. You stated that you had no idea this card was bad prior to the conversation you had with an anonymous source today. I simply stated that if you had read this thread or any previous regarding this card that you would already know this and whatever you learnered today couldn't be a new revalation.

Feel free to beat up on me but I will continue to post honest, fact based information in the face of myths conjecture and exaggerations until you ban me.
Quite honestly Tim, and I doubt you will believe this, but I don't read a lot of the venom spewed on this board or the extremely involved T206 series and print discussions. Like I have said, I have absolutely no reason in the world to tell a story about this card. No reason at all. It's against my nature too. I have a much broader interest and it just doesn't interest me a ton. ON a scale of one to ten on being banned, and ten being over the top and banned, you aren't even at one yet. You would have to continually berate and harass me ....over and over and over and over.....and that is when I am not even arguing with you, for that to happen. Now you guys can get back to this discussion. I am going back to my type cards, where I am more at home . I love the hobby and love collecting cards. No hard feelings..best regards
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  #39  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
One last update to correct myself (yet again). Two mistakes in the same day, a new record for me.

When I had mentioned the back was positively identified from another card and the card was previously owned by an alleged card doctor, both of those statements were incorrect. I misconstrued what was told to me. The person just called back and clarified a few things. He believes in Ted's analysis of the reasoning the card is not good. The rest of the stuff I wrote is correct and most of it was first hand. Sometimes when I listen to multiple accounts of cards, I get my wires crossed. As much as I didn't want to have to do this post, I have to. I have no choice. One thing I won't do is spread false info or tell stories. I can't even remember truths all of the time and I am sure as hell not going to tell lies and have to remember them. That is all on this subject. My apology for my misunderstanding. regards
Oh my...LOL
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  #40  
Old 05-26-2016, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
If you are new to the T206 game, here are the 7 backs that the green Cobb was printed with........

PIEDMONT 150
PIEDMONT 350
SOVEREIGN 150
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 25
SWEET CAP 150, Factory 30
SWEET CAP 350, Factory 30
OLD MILL


TED Z
Ted, I found this old thread. Is this info still correct? Or is there a Cobb green/ Sweet Cap 350, Factory 25?


PS- Here's my new Cobb:


scan0015.jpg scan0016.jpg
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  #41  
Old 05-26-2016, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Ted, I found this old thread. Is this info still correct? Or is there a Cobb green/ Sweet Cap 350, Factory 25?


PS- Here's my new Cobb:


Attachment 232553 Attachment 232554
Sean, I was seventh under bidder on that baby! I was watching that from the get go, figured I had a chance, but turned out, you da man! Nice job.
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  #42  
Old 05-26-2016, 04:51 PM
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Very nice Sean!
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  #43  
Old 10-23-2016, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Ted, I found this old thread. Is this info still correct? Or is there a Cobb green/ Sweet Cap 350, Factory 25?


PS- Here's my new Cobb:


Attachment 232553 Attachment 232554
Sean,
There are Cobb (Green Portraits) with SC 350/25 Backs.
Cobb (Green) SC 350-25 PSA 3.jpg
Cobb (Green) SC 350-25 PSA 6.jpg
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  #44  
Old 10-23-2016, 01:01 PM
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Thanks Pat. That's a great Cobb- PSA6. Is it yours?
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