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  #1  
Old 08-05-2006, 03:04 AM
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Posted By: edacra


I'm wondering, what's the rule of thumb when identifying if a wire photo is first generation or even original? I know some of it has to do with the markings on the back, but I noticed a recent lot on Ebay where the typed print almost looked burnt in to the front of the print itself or worse, a reproduction of the glued on label. Here's one example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1957-Wire-Photo-Ted-Williams-Safe-at-3rd-n-Detroit_W0QQitemZ290012736854QQihZ019QQcategoryZ50 129QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That particular item isn't pre-war, but I've noticed the same issue on older press photos where the identification notes appear stamped on with that mimeographed looking print somehow.

Are there any websites or guides that cover this stuff?

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Old 08-05-2006, 09:32 AM
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Posted By: joe

Not sure if this helps, but here are 2 examples of 1st generation. Funny thing is I have 4 different Detroit Tiger copies and 3 different photographers, Holcomb, Seiter, and MacGregor, all Detroit News, 3 are dated 1956, 1 is dated 1954. The Basketball is printed like the one you are looking at, 1975.

Joe

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Old 08-05-2006, 09:45 AM
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Posted By: cmoking

http://www.cycleback.com/sportsphotos.html

edited to add comments on the book:
I bought David Cycleback's book on sports photographs about a month ago. There is a bunch of useful info that I will use as reference. I don't think it made me an expert by any means, but it was educating and shows a novice like me how much people do know about photos. It is definitely worth the price. Good job David!

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Old 08-05-2006, 11:10 AM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

The Ted Williams is not first generation/original, but it was made in the year
the photo was shot (1957). When there's an 'in the image' caption like that,
the photo is as old as the date in the caption, but the photo is not first
generation. The original photo would literally have the paper caption pasted
across the photo, and the resulting wirephoto copy of it will only have an image
of the caption rather than the physical caption. You can find photos with
the physical caption still pasted on.

Most Pre-1930 news service photos are first generation, as the wirephoto
process, which duplicates images, wasn't around. If it isn't first generation,
the image will likely be of at least somewhat lesser quality.

A key for original versus later generation or wirephotocopy, is that the
original will have the clearest image, so will be aesthetically most pleasing.

If the wirephoto is of a special event, ala Roger Maris' 61st home run, the
wirephoto will can have high value as it is a historical artifact.

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Old 08-05-2006, 11:48 AM
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Posted By: John S

David is the expert regarding photos on this board...take his advice and if you are really interested his books are a must have. Crop marks on a photo often (but not always) are an indicator that it is a first generation photo. Use your eyes, 10x or greater magnification (a dot pattern indicates a copy), and other clues like paper stock to determine a photo's generation. The photo below is a first generation Ernie Nevers from 1925 (International News Photos). A copy of this photo (or possibly this one) was used to make Nevers 1955 Topps All American card.

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Old 08-05-2006, 12:00 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

When bidding in an online auction, like eBay, one advice I can tell you is
that is there's a good big scan of of the photo, the photo has vintage stamping
and the image in the scan is really sharp, clear and rich, that's consistant
with the photo being first generation original. If it's a copy or wirephoto,
the image will usually be of less detail and quality. This is not only for a 1925
photo, but a 1955 or 1965 photo of Mickey Mantle.

The problem is that that eBay scans often are of lesser quality so you can't tell until
you get the photo in person. But a number of sellers provide high quality scans.

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Old 08-06-2006, 01:54 PM
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Posted By: edacra

Thanks David! (and everyone else who responded with examples too.) Much appreciated. I'll definely pick up that book if it looks like I'm really going to start buying these things.

I think I'm still a bit hazy on the terminology as to what constitutes an "original" though.

I get that a print made by the news agency who contracted the photographer should be stamped accordingly - indicating what we can call an "original" or first generation print made off the negative.

But are there any other prints made by a news agency which can be properly called an "original"?

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Old 08-06-2006, 03:17 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

An original is made from the original negative soon after the image is shot. Anything
that isn't made from the original negative or is made from the original years later is
not an original. These later generation images will often be of noticable lesser quality,
while the originals will often be crystal clear (thus, their higher value).

If you know what stamps are old, that's half the battle as a collector. If you see a
Mickey Mantle photo with an ACME News Service, whether or not the image was made from
the original negative, you know the photo's vintage. ACME went out of business in the
1950s. Even in an only auction, you can see a stamp and be sure the photo's no modern
reprint. So once you know the stamps, life is a lot easier for the collector.

If the ACME Mantle photo has a crystal clear image, you own an original. Vintage
stamp + crystal clear image = original.

And if you get the photo and realize the Mantle image is a bit too muddy to be first
generation, the photo will still have value as it's vintage. As with baseball cards
the age itself of the photo has value.

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Old 08-06-2006, 06:03 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

I hesitate to single out auctions, but Leland's has a whole big section
of news service photos, sport and non-sport. I like the 1929 Clara Bow
with Felix the Cat.

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  #10  
Old 08-06-2006, 06:58 PM
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Posted By: edacra

David, thanks again for that clarification.

It's interesting to see an aspect of the hobby which isn't entirely formalized yet, at least in terms of pricing. I still see boxes of wirephotos selling for $1 each at flea markets right next to the dealers with the binders of better stuff, still priced a lot lower then those opening bids at Lelands.

I've noticed a lot of these prints weren't of the highest quality, and look like they missed a few minutes of a good soak in a chemical bath during the rush processing. does that jive with your experience at all?

Does your book cover the various stamps by chance?

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Old 08-06-2006, 10:12 PM
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Posted By: davidcycleback

Common old news service stamps include ACME Newspictures,
International News Photos, Atlantic & Pacific, Keystone View,
Bain News Service (George Grantham Bain), United Press and
United Press Association. All of these companies went out
of business or changed their name 1950s or earlier, so their
stamps only appear on older photos.

United Press International (UPI) is modern (late 1950s and after).
Associated Press has been around for a long, long time and
their stamp can appear on both old and new photos.

Image quality is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm not about to
tell collectors what they are supposed to buy. Forgetting the issue
of first or second or fourth generation, what matters about the image is
how the image, including the clarity, appeals to you. If you like the
image, you like it. If you feel the image is too underdeveloped, you
don't need a photo historian to tell you about the image's quality.

It's like with baseball cards. You don't have to be an SGC grader
or Bill Mastro to decide which baseball card appeals to you aestheticly.
A beginning collector might want some outside advice to determine age,
authenticity and value, but his opinion on the beauty of a set is as
valid as Mastro's.

Amongst the best aesthetic education is look at a wide variety of photos,
decide what you like, what you don't, what is rare, what is common. To say,
"That's the sweetest Ted Williams photo I've seen," impies that you've seen
a number of Ted Williams photos before.

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