Kudos to Legendary - 1909 Pirate ID IQ Test

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Fimoff

Lot #252 in the current Legendary auction:



Legendary's description:
"The assembly includes: Abstein, Byrne (VG/EX, spotting on collet at left edge), Clarke (VG, stain-spots in background), Miller, Wilson, and one unidentified athlete."

OK - of those 5 names listed by Legendary, some may be there, some may not be there. Can you match all 6 correct names to the right faces?

Hint - pages 22-23 of the fall 2008 Old Cardboard might help.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

I don't have any of the Old Cardboard's with me but here is whom I think they look like from that team (no Clarke in there). I could very well be wrong though...

L-R top row ABSTEIN MILLER WILSON
L-R bottom row LEACH BYRNE CAMNITZ

-Rhett

Edited to switch Camnitz & Byrne as I had their position switched in my mind (the new board will be nice to be able to see the previous posts while writing yours.)

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

I will take a shot here top row L To R. Abstein,Miller, Wilson Bottom Row L To R Clarke, Byrne and heres the tricky part Could be Camnitz, Leever, or Simon I would say Camnitz

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I've not looked at other photos or guides to identify the guys... If I
do that, then we don't discern who "I" can identify, but rather who I
can pick out with photo help.

I think that's Clarke on the bottom left, one of the Camnitz's on
bottom right.


I think these are later than 1909. In 1909 the city's name was Pittsburg.

It was just a bit later that the name was changed to Pittsburgh.

So they might depict 1909 players... but they're a year or so later.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Frank said -- "If I do that, then we don't discern who "I" can identify, but rather who I can pick out with photo help."

That is an interesting take on this - I never intended it to be a "closed book" test - it's hard enough when you do have a very clear team photo for reference (as with the Pittsburg Press supplement in Old Cardboard that I recommended).

As to the date - one of the players was gone after 1909, another did not arrive until well into the 09 season, so the intent was likely to depict members of the 1909 team..

[Archive]

Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Frank, the Pittsburg vs. Pittsburgh thing is trickier than you think.

In 1890 the US decided to Standardize all city names around the country as there were some cities with several different names and some with multiple spellings (as is the case here.) It was decided that ALL cities in the US that ended in "-burgh" or "-burg" would now be "-BURG" and thus the "H" was Officially dropped from Pittsburgh.

Despite this fact the city fought it and tons of stuff produced & printed after that date still retained the "H". Pittsburghers are a tough bunch and didn't really take kindly to the Gov't telling them how to spell the name of their city. I lived in the Burgh for several years and can testify they are a tough working-class city.

In 1910 Pittsburgh officially announced the restoration of the lost "H" to their city. Despite this fact some people still spelled the city w/o the H for several years, as had been the earlier custom. So, I would never use the "H" or no "H" to try and date anything, it just wasn't that cut & dry.

Anyways, that is why Pittsburgh retains their "H" while most cities ending in -burg/-burgh are today spelled without the H.

-Rhett

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

L-R top row ABSTEIN/MILLER/SHELTON
L-R bottom row CLARKE/BYRNE/HOWIE CAMNITZ

[Archive]

Posted By: Sean

I would bet money on it that the bottom far left is Tommy Leach and NOT Fred Clarke.

[Archive]

Posted By: JDRUM

I agree that is Leach and not Clarke.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Gentleman,
I dont know,maybe we will have to re write the books but this is what I have. From Hake+ Steckler.
As I think I said the only one is the last bottom right that maybe in question. But as we know even the best can be wrong!

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

looks like it only took 1 picture in the first post.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Fimoff

They are:
Abstein - Dots Miller - Wilson
Leach - Byrne - Camnitz

Rhett got them all.

The most important thing, auction-wise I guess, is that it's Leach, not Clarke, as spotted by several posters above.



edited: Al posted while I was working on my post - Hake+Steckler is wrong on Clarke & Leach - they have them reversed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Thanks Mark like I said even the best can be wrong!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thanks, Rhett... So do you think they're 1909, or realistically 1910 depicting the 1909 players??

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark Fimoff

edited in light of next post

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Legendary has made the needed corrections to the item description!

[Archive]

Posted By: Matt

I suppose better late then never - any ideea if they got in touch with all the bidders to give them the option of bid retraction? a HOFer to a non-HOFer is a big difference.

My Trade/Sale Page

[Archive]

Posted By: Al Simeone

Matt,
I believe the rarity of the lot will still bring a very good price. Even if it isnt Clarke. They dont come up that often and the stick pin is nice to have with that lot.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Matt - I don't know. They didn't get a lot of notice on this one and they responded pretty fast compared to another auctioneer of recent memory. I would think that if a bidder wanted to retract his bid he would have a leg to stand on here, but I am sure other posters here know better than I do.