Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[36GoudeyMan]

Could the HOF maybe have a wing for "Hall of Fame Achievements"? Something to honor players who did something(s) great but did not have an otherwise HOF-worthy career?

Maris' 61 homers comes to mind. Vander Meer's back-to-back No Hitters might qualify.

Dunno, just a thought....

[steve B]

I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.

If it's a hall of fame, maybe both should be in. If it's a hall of stats, maybe not. As it is, it's a hall of stats over time, with a popularity poll at the end.

[MooseDog]

Originally Posted by steve B

I suppose it depends on whether it's a hall of fame, or a hall of stats. Both often go together, but sometimes they diverge.

This ^^^^^^^^

Seems we're moving more towards a Hall of (Advanced) Stats.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Are you nuts? Even in Wisconsin, back in 1961 we had newspapers, magazines, and radio's.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? If someone wasn't alive in 1961 or old enough to read the paper or remember, how would they know what it was like? In our neighborhood Maris cards were commons, sorry.

[ctownboy]

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

[packs]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

If I remember correctly, neither Hank Aaron, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds were Yankees yet they are all remembered for the same thing: hitting a magic number of home runs.

Who else did that? I think a guy named Roger Maris.

I kinda doubt he hits 61 without that guy who hit 4th behind him -- now what was his name -- Mickey something.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

So if he played for the Tigers and led the team to 3 straight ws, winning back to back mvps and hit 61 hr breaking Babe’s record... yes we would.
I also say that Murphy belongs... who was the best player in baseball in the early 80s with back to back mvps for a terrible team.

Originally Posted by ctownboy

IF Roger Maris had played for a bad team in 1961 and NOT the Yankees would we even be HAVING this discussion??

Maris is NOT a Hall of Famer and the only reason for his fame is because he was a Yankee.

David

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you serious? I don't understand how anyone who was alive in 1998 can possibly say something like that. Maris was the most famous name in all of sports during the most famous chase in all of sports at a time when baseball was at it's inflated height. I think you would have been hard pressed to find a person in the country who didn't know his name.

He is talking about NOW, not then.

[Baseball Bob]

My recollection of Albert belle was that he was a foul-tempered, cantankerous and lazy baseball player who wasted a lot of his talent. The HOF does not usually take in characters like that.....

[packs]

Why do people keep bringing up 1961 as a baseline for knowing who Maris is? Did everyone forget McGwire and Sosa's chase? Who were they chasing? How about Bonds' pursuit in 2001? That was only 18 years ago.

[h2oya311]

When I think of Albert Belle, I think of this play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV3fNK31HD4

By the way, I voted "no" for both, although some of the arguments for inclusion of Maris are warranted. Interestingly, just because someone doesn't make the HOF doesn't mean that they aren't a major part of the HOF (Cooperstown). There's all sorts of equipment and other references to non-HOFers at Cooperstown, like Maris and Rose. I don't recall seeing any Joey Belle "stuff" there at Cooperstown. Feared, yes (see video). HOF, not so much. I'd stick Dale Murphy in the Hall well before Joey "Albert" Belle.

[Marckus99]

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by Marckus99

Belle over boring Maris.
All day, every day.

Surpassing Babe Ruth's coveted home run record while the captivated baseball world held it's breath... you can't get any more boring than that.
While Belle was consistent throughout his career... what was exciting about it? When he was caught cheating with a corked bat in 1994?

[skil55voy]

I was 5 years old growing up in Detroit when Roger broke Babe's record. None of the adults around me wanted Roger to break the record. I can remember laying in front of our Emerson black and white TV and seeing the scroll across the bottom of the screen announcing Roger's 56th homer, his 57th 58th etc.. as he hit them. Even though most people were against him, he did it anyway. He became a hero to me because he did it anyway. I don't think anybody was ever in a zone like he was that year. I read an article where Norm Cash said that his 1961 season was like no other. He said that everything he hit just seemed to drop in. Don't care about the Hall of Fame. Roger had one of the great years in baseball, surpassing a bigger than life legend. Just a working guy who swung the bat like nothing anybody had ever seen. 159 hits - 61 were home runs. Incredible.

[TUM301]

My 2 cents, Maris`s argument reminds me somewhat of the Joe Namath one. Both players had some great years but overall, their career numbers didn`t make them automatic. However, both players had single historical moments that transcended their respective sports. Maris for historical "61" season and of course Joe and his Jets forever changing the NFL/AFL landscape defeating the Colts in the Super Bowl. For me, they are both Hall Of Fame Locks !

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

I daresay most people in New York don't know who he is. Clearly most people everywhere do not. The median age is like 27, and even in the U.S., which apart from Canada, is probably about the only country where more than 1% of people would know the name, < 20% of the people are old enough to remember the '61 season.

I have a feeling that most people know who Sam Harris is, given how frequently he's mentioned within my social group, but I also know that feeling is stupid and comes from a false consensus bias and that in reality there's no way even 10% of people know who he is. Baseball fans will feel the same about Roger Maris, Hank Greenberg, et al., but again, no way even 10% of people know who these guys are. In fact, no way even 10% of people know who Walter Johnson was, and he was the greatest pitcher in MLB history.

There are several times as many people who don't know who Donald Trump is (and he's likely the most famous person in the world at the moment) as who do know who Roger Maris was.

[Jason19th]

Neither are even close. Maris is not a hall of famer in any regard. He was a quiet decent and hardworking man who was elevated to something he was not because of two good seasons. Look at his numbers, he hit 260 with 1325 hits. He did not have a career where he was somehow blocked by circumstances. He was a regular when he was 22 and he retired at 33 after hitting around 250 with less then 13 homer per year for his last 4 years. If you look at his similarity scores per age he was Reggie Jackson for three years, but in his other years he was Larry Hisle, Pete incavigila, Jessie Barfield and Coby Rasmus.

There are a ton a guys who had two great years- Rubin Sierra, Jose Cansevo, George foster, dale murphy, Mickey Vernon, al Rosen, Denny McClain, etc who have career numbers as good as or better then Maris who are not even talked about for the hall

He should be applauded for 61 but not be elevated to the hall

[jchcollins]

Belle to me is borderline with a short career. Maris is such a pull either way - clearly (along with Gil Hodges) one of the single most popular players who has not been enshrined yet. He did win 2 MVP's, but the arguments for the short peak are valid. I do buy into some of the "did a lot for baseball" arguments. Yes, the vote is as a player, but what are some of those long-forgotten execs enshrined for if not for "what they did for the game"? As a kid even in the 1980's when I first started collecting cards, Maris was extremely well known - way before the summer of '98 drama. Yes, it's for one event - but that one event was the single most cherished record in the entire history of the game. One that has since been tarnished I might add by all the things that have since come out about McGwire and Bonds. I think there are exceptions, and really it would not bother me if Roger gets elected one day.

[timn1]

Maris as a hofer is nonsense.

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by rats60

ly

Maybe in the New York area. The 1961 season was 58 years ago. Unless someone is ~65 they weren't old enough to remember to chase. Most people in the West, South or Midwest have no idea who he is.

The argument is whether or not he WAS EVER famous.... not whether or not he is famous now. By that logic, how many people or even casual baseball fans today could tell you who Mathewson or Ward or Anson are? Probably close to zero... so does that mean they were never famous? Of course not.
And people in the West, South or Midwest certainly knew who Maris was in 1961... unless they lived under a rock.

You can also add that most players with little fame do not have movies made after them.

[BuckiGuy]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Most casual baseball fans are shocked when they find out that Maris is not in the HOF. Maris is iconic. Maris is a household name - most people who don’t know baseball know his name. He’s a legend. Legends should be immortalized.

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by buckiguy

this. As for belle, i grew up watch8ng him play at the jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While i’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, mike mussina will be in this year, and fred mcgriff probably next year.

McGriff.jpg

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Attachment 347205

McGriff - a stand out HOF package, if there ever was one.

McGriff v Baines - contrast and compare...

'Talk amongst yourselves'


.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by BuckiGuy

This. As for Belle, I grew up watch8ng him play at The Jake, and he was as feared as they come for quite sometime. While I’m not sure he’s hall worthy, the standards to get in have slipped a bit lately. I mean, Mike Mussina will be in this year, and Fred McGriff probably next year.

Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Here are all the pitchers better than Mussina who are not in the Hall of Fame.

1. Roger Clemens

Based on his peak years I might put Schilling ahead of Mussina.

[Touch'EmAll]

It is called the Hall of Fame. So shouldn't fame be recognized? Maris is unquestionable famous. He held for a very long time one of the most famous, remarkable and most prestigious records in all of sports. Absolutely Maris, yes! And they put in Harold Baines ?!?! Unbelievable

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

It is called the Hall of Fame. So shouldn't fame be recognized? Maris is unquestionable famous. He held for a very long time one of the most famous, remarkable and most prestigious records in all of sports. Absolutely Maris, yes! And they put in Harold Baines ?!?! Unbelievable

100backstroke, I could not possibly agree more with you. "Hall of Fame", not Hall of Fifteen Years of Remarkable Stats. Be that as it may, fifteen years of remarkable stats are what the BBWA has gone by to enshrine. The Old Timers Committee passed over Roger Maris, too. I won't insinuate a "what do they know?" line. I will not insinuate, but rather sharply accuse both groups of hating the Yankees in general. Roger Maris was a complete player whose peak was indeed short, but like the great Hack Wilson, accomplished some mighty terrific accomplishments for a couple years. I know, a couple years does not make a HOF career. You're right. However, the 61 in 61 ALONE should get Mr. Roger Eugene Maris elected to the MLB Hall of Fame. I do not care what anyone else says to the contrary. The man achieved more fame in 1961 ALONE than half the players on the plaques. I prize my Roger Maris cards and coins regardless of whether he is ever begrudged the honor due him. Many never understood the man or his value.

I'm Brian1961 because of my first name and the year I began collecting cards. The correlation is precisely what you might expect that to be. I am what I am and it is what it is.

Honestly, whether Mr. Maris is elected to the HOF is not as important to me as when MLB will finally quit dragging their big feet in the mud to overrule who genuinely holds the MLB single season home run record. We all know Mark McGwire finally confessed to taking steroids in his hot pursuit of Roger's hard-earned record. Barry Bonds steadfastly insists he broke the record and it's his, and you can forget Ruth, Maris, and McGwire! Somehow, the powers that be could not test the big braggart to see if he was legit. Bonds certainly did not offer his body to be tested, and defied everyone who accused him, believing himself to be "untouchable". Unfortunately for Barry, the many photos of him before, and during, his late career rampage tell a decidedly decisive picture of the man's euphoric numbers.

I know, I know, this is about Roger and Albert. I guess I just had to remind everyone of Roger's home run record that was initially broken 20 years ago last year, again and again through 2001 or whatever (by then I had tuned out!), but to the point, should rightfully be acknowledged as never having been legitimately broken.

Now that we're at 2019, I wonder if Bonds's guilt can ever be conclusively proven.

If youse guys don't want to go down that road, just skip this post.

--- Brian Powell

[ctownboy]

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Based on his peak years I might put Schilling ahead of Mussina.

Emphatic +1. Schilling, more than any other player (including Pedro, Manny and Papi), turned the Red Sox from a loser franchise to a winner.

Sincerely,

Mystique and Aura