PSA/BGS/PWCC dispute or refund thread

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

So I haven't seen anyone post that they got an email from PWCC (or anyone else) informing them that they purchased altered cards and to please return them for a prompt and cheerful refund.

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

[steve_a]

I’ve been watching this all unfold and thought I had been unaffected. I didn’t see any of my certs. Today I received an unsolicited refund offer from PWCC for a $600 card I purchased in 2014.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

So I haven't seen anyone post that they got an email from PWCC (or anyone else) informing them that they purchased altered cards and to please return them for a prompt and cheerful refund.

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

[swarmee]

Wow; glad to see they still have some cash in the vault to refund you.

[Flintboy]

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

[ruth-gehrig]

Ask Jeffrey he should know

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

You missed Steve Sloan's statement, advising people with altered cards to contact their seller and only to contact PSA if the seller was "unknown."

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Since PWCC has been accused of perpetuating the fraud against customers and PSA, it was recommended to PSA that to reduce their liability, that the buyers of affected cards try to get refunds from the scammers first before making a run on the bank of Collector's Universe.
If the place you bought it from determines that they do not want to take the return, then you contact PSA about their grade guarantee. One of the big takeaways from the stockholders conference call three months ago was that PSA actually reduced their reserve fund, while everyone on this board expected them to increase it because of the scandal.

There is some hearsay that says that the big submitters to PSA and SGC were invited to meet with them and both companies highly recommended that if the submitters wanted to keep their privileges to submit, that they take all the returns and eat the losses themselves. That would absolve PSA and SGC from having to take as many returns of altered cards. COMC is refunding people who bought altered or fake cards on their site as well, and claim that they're going to inform buyers of exposed cards that they should return them for full refunds to COMC. Maybe after paying out all those refunds, COMC takes all the altered cards and submits them to PSA under the grade guarantee since they weren't the alterers, just a venue for sale?

I'm surprised nobody in this conference call asked if PWCC regained their submission privileges, or if any other scammers had their submission privileges taken away. If so, what are their names? Why isn't the "Never Get Cheated" company supplying us with a list of known alterers/trimmers?

Isn't it obvious??? THEY are in on the scam, that's the only logical conclusion PERIOD

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

You don't get that Brent Mastro was in on the trimming card scam from the beginning? ., maybe they'll sue PSA for the $$$ and continue to deny deny deny, right calvindog?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because the FBI is on PWCC's case, and they have a competent attorney who is advising them to do the right thing. Doubtful they'd be doing it from the kindness of their hearts...

Still looking to hear from someone who was made right by PSA. Perhaps the FBI should be pressuring them equally (if they aren't already...) If PSA is let off the hook for their thousands of "mistakes" then it's a huge black eye for the hobby.

While I don't own any of the outed cards or even purchased from PWCC that I can remember, I took a card to PSA at the National that was clearly not the correct grade for the holder. They contacted me a couple weeks later via phone call and agreed and offered compensation. Not sure if you were looking for examples of PWCC scandal cards or just cards that were covered by the guarantee in general.

[JollyElm]

I wonder if during the PWCC office Christmas party 'Secret Santa,' the most common $20 or less gift is a new pair of scissors??

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why is PWCC doing the refunding? The card is in a PSA holder, shouldn’t they be the ones contacting and refunding?

The authenticity and guarantee comes from PSA. Didn’t see anything on PSA website about going through PWCC. Maybe I need to read the fine print.

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

PWCC can go after PSA for money they spent ..

Not if they submitted the cards which I am sure in many cases they did.

[swarmee]

Well, they can try. More likely they'd get a breach of contract countersuit?

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wow; glad to see they still have some cash in the vault to refund you.

Never too late to make amends when there's a guillotine hanging over one's head.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by steve_a

I’ve been watching this all unfold and thought I had been unaffected. I didn’t see any of my certs. Today I received an unsolicited refund offer from PWCC for a $600 card I purchased in 2014.

Which card and are you returning it?

[Flintboy]

None of this makes any sense at all.

PSA has the guarantee of an unaltered card, encapsulates said card, it then gets exposed as tainted and they say go back to where you bought it?

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

None of this makes any sense at all.

PSA has the guarantee of an unaltered card, encapsulates said card, it then gets exposed as tainted and they say go back to where you bought it?

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

100% Correct I’ve been asking this question since day one! Falls on death ears I believe because people are making millions off PSA brand selling their product ECT. It’s the old don’t bite the hand that feed you silence that continues to facilitate the grandiose Debacle of Greed.

One would think if PSA was able to prove the submitter in bad faith submitted bad cards that were altered in an attempt to be graded with a number grade that they would have to go after that submit to civilly recover the money They had to pay back to the owner of the altered card. I’ve heard of this being done before by PSA. PSA has a guarantee make them prove that these alleged bad actors doctored/attempted to defraud them.

If PSA gets off Scott free without any responsibility this S will only continue the bad guys will just get more sophisticated in hiding their identities, who consigns to who purchases what handles are used etc.
I thought people on here wanted to HAVE Good Grading Company that didn’t grade bad cards, isn’t that the purpose of them?

In my view you’re going to see a major battle between PSA an alleged major problem submitters.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Flintboy

Why would PWCC or for that fact anyone other than PSA refund cards that were altered?

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.
So why wouldn't PSA push the financial burden onto a different company who is also at fault for the fraud. PWCC is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation right now. They're walking on eggshells. If they're willing to take the returns, PSA gets off with a whole lot less complaints and fiscal hit to their shareholders. Joe Orlando even said this scandal WASN'T MATERIAL TO THEIR BUSINESS!

If PWCC refuses to refund, then they likely face stiffer penalties from the FBI investigation. PSA at that point would be liable for the guarantee.

[Leon]

Nicely stated.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.
So why wouldn't PSA push the financial burden onto a different company who is also at fault for the fraud. PWCC is being investigated by the Federal Bureau of Investigation right now. They're walking on eggshells. If they're willing to take the returns, PSA gets off with a whole lot less complaints and fiscal hit to their shareholders. Joe Orlando even said this scandal WASN'T MATERIAL TO THEIR BUSINESS!

If PWCC refuses to refund, then they likely face stiffer penalties from the FBI investigation. PSA at that point would be liable for the guarantee.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Have you been paying attention? PWCC and their submitting friends (Gary Moser, Brent himself?, Sotheby's restorer, Dick Towle?, etc) are implicated in doing the card altering themselves. Since PSA has the submission form state that when you sign, you promise you did not alter them, PSA does not have to pay restitution/guarantees to those who attempt to defraud their services.

It is a good point that if the submitter signs a contract stating he did not altered the card (or perhaps know the card is altered?), they broke/lied on the the grading contact and are liable. This, of course, doesn't dismiss that PSA wsa unable to identify the alterations.

I think PSA should pay the price for their inabilities to do their job, but forgers and liars should also pay a price.

[GeoPoto]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Has ANYONE gotten an unsolicited notice of any kind about cards purchased through PWCC, or are they only oiling the squeaky wheels?

Jeff?

I got one in September, returned the card as requested, got a check shortly after that. The card was post-war (1950). The check cleared.

[Johnny630]

PSA should have to buy all The Wrongfully Graded Altered Cards Back.

In my opinion they’re the root cause/major facilitator of all this.