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  #1  
Old 09-23-2007, 09:45 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Of Net54 members....or, even if we can determine it for the entire collecting community ?

And, of course this SURVEY is not just for PSA 8 (or higher grades); but, includes SGC, GAI, Beckett, etc.....Hi Graded cards.

I am certainly not in this category.

I am a set collector of 19th & 20th Century all-sports and non-sports cards....Naked or Graded (not any over a "6").

TED Z

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Old 09-23-2007, 09:51 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

There are not only hundreds but thousands overall--just go on PSA's registry and look at the 30,000 sets registered. In fact past either 1960 or 1970, the vast majority are psa 8 or 9 collectors. On this board few and many are not aware of the whole other world that exists which partially explains some of the reactions to graded card posts.

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Old 09-23-2007, 10:01 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Jim

I would estimate a dozen in Non Sports pre 1960.

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Old 09-23-2007, 10:03 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Tim Newcomb

"In fact past either 1960 or 1970, the vast majority are psa 8 or 9 collectors."

I dunno about "vast majority"-- Jim, you accuse people on this board of being narrowly inside their own little world, but I think this comment shows you are narrowly inside your little registry world as well. I mean, when you look at the huge number of ungraded low and middle condition Topps cards being sold on ebay all the time, it seems to me that there are WAY more collectors doing ungraded sets than graded ones.

But even if it were true, wouldn't it be cause for some concern among the high-grade collectors? If there are SO MANY of these cards in 8 and 9 around, with the potential for many more not yet graded, you can hardly call them rare. Those populations are just going to keep on growing....

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Old 09-23-2007, 10:12 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I frequently scan the PSA and SGC set registry's and I don't see that many cards (or sets) graded "8's" in the VINTAGE category.

Your #'s primarily apply to post-WWII sets; and, in particular mid-50s sets up to 1990's sets.

I guess I should have QUALIFIED my question to apply only to sportscards collectors of 19th Century to 1949.

TED Z

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  #6  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:18 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: barrysloate

Are we talking E97's or 1966 Topps?

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  #7  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:22 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: bruce Dorskind



Whilst Jim Crandall is quite accurate in his overall analysis of the PSA 8 Collector
population, we believe that the number of collectors with the resources and
dedication to limit their collecting to PSA 8 or higher pre World War II cards
is small, indeed.

For the past 4 years we have tracked the E Bay names of every winning bidder
on PSA 8 E, T and R cards, This includes T 204-T206 E93-E95, E 145
and R 305, R 328 R333 and R319-R321

If we assume that true collectors would have won at least 10 cards over said
four year period and nearly all PSA 8 collectors would also be active E Bay
bidders, we found only 52 different collectors who won 10 or more PSA 8 and
PSA 9 cards from January 2004 through July 2007.

In fact, the population of true collectors may be overstated because it included
a number of important dealers like Legacy Sports Cards and Steve Novella,
to name two.

Bruce Dorskind
America's Toughest Want List

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  #8  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:24 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted--agreed.

Tim--I agree with your point as well--except for a few low pops in 1962 assembling a psa 8 and better set for any set in the 1960s is not an extraordinarily tough thing to do--one of reasons I have tried to upgrade lots of my 8s to 9s. Only 60-68 card I am missing in 8 or better is the 62 Witt.

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  #9  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:27 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: barrysloate

Bruce is right on the money (are you amazed I am so agreeable?)

Pre- 1915 cards are quite difficult to find in PSA 8, save perhaps T206 and Cracker Jack where sharp examples have survived.

But the majority of sets from 1887-1915 probably have a miniscule survival rate in NR MT/MT condition. That's why if you love 8's you are forced to collect what's out there, and it mostly ranges from Goudeys to the present.

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  #10  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:34 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: jay behrens

I'm uncomfortable owning cards graded better than 50. I only have a few examples that are graded 50 or higher, like my e92 Nadja Oakes, that I won't sell because they are absolute favorite cards of mine and don't want to part with them. In general, I sell off my high grade cards because I can easily replace them with a lower grade card and add a number of other cards to my collection with extra money.

Such is the life of a collector with an insane goal

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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  #11  
Old 09-23-2007, 10:53 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: doug

While I dont think there are very many true collectors who collect "exclusively" PSA 8 or better sportscards, there are obviously thousands of collectors who collect sportscards and when affordable would prefer to have a card graded PSA 8 or better (who wouldnt want a mint condition cracker jack cobb over a poor condition one?). Collecting only PSA 8 or better would severely limit a collectors choice of cards to collect only the 1950s sets and later because of rarity and price of PSA 8 cards. Condition is very important in card collecting for the vast majority of collectors but my budget limits me and many other collectors to pick and choose whether I buy a PSA 8 1933 Goudey or a handful of lesser condition Goudeys. Sure Id rather have all my cards in mint condition but many of the cards dont exist in PSA 8 or better or if they do they are too expensive. For example, my budget allows me to work on a 1954 Bowman set in PSA 7 or better and I prefer PSA 8 cards in that set, but Ill buy 7s if they are nice and if the price discrepancy between a PSA 7 and a PSa 8 of a card seems out of whack because of the "population report" I will gladly buy the PSA 7 if it is a good looking near mint card. However, I am working on some caramel sets and t card sets and my budget wont allow me to limit myself to PSA 8s so I will buy PSA 5s and above. I collect all types of cards and condition does matter but its not always the driving factor, condition is less important if a card is scarce or if a card is super expensive in high grade condition. You only have to look at the sale price of the most famous card in our hobby, the Wagner. Condition is less important as the rarity of the card goes up. Many collectors and investors who wouldnt normally buy a poor beat up condition card, will pay 100k for a poor condition Wagner. Same would be true if the 1952 Mantle were rare. As rarity goes up, collectors become less concerned about condition. Most of the 1950s sets can be found in PSA 8 or better and thus you have collectors with deep pockets who are able to limit themselves to PSA 8 or better in those sets.

Ive read posts by collectors who say that condition doesnt matter to them but they are in the minority and Im not sure I believe them all the time. If money were no object of course someone would rather have a mint condition Black bordered Mayo card then some beater creased and looking like it went through the washing machine. Who would want to open up a pack of 2007 topps and find that the card of their favorite player was creased? Condition is very important and drives prices in any collectible industry. Someone may enjoy their colletion of poor condition cards just as much or more as the guy with mint condition collection of cards and thats great, but the mint condition cards will always be worth more and sought after by more collectors if affordable.

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  #12  
Old 09-23-2007, 11:14 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Lee Behrens

I personally do not need to have 8's in my collection. I have owned them and sold all of the to acquire more lowergrade presentable cards at a fraction of the cost of the 8's.

Here is a prime example, this card has a very tiny tear (you have to look very closely to see it) on one side otherwise the card is awesome.



I think that there are many more collectors out there like me, why get one card for $2000 when you can 40 cards that look very similar except for minor flaws?

Lee

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Old 09-23-2007, 11:50 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Now Bruce's post -- that is a thoughtful post.

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  #14  
Old 09-23-2007, 05:50 PM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: DaveWilliams

Virtually everyone who collects post 1980 cards would probably be a PSA 8 or better collector.

There's millions out there to collect.

But since there are so few "8" or better cards out there in pre WW2, and especially WW1 that only the deep pockets can officially be an "8" or better collector.

The rest of us are just collectors/hobbyists who buy what we want and can afford.

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  #15  
Old 09-24-2007, 07:56 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVE W

You bring up a good point....so I ask....why are we constantly having to tolerate all this constant "PSA8 Talk" on this section
of this Forum which I don't need to remind everyone....is a PRE-WWII Vintage BB card platform ?

These incessant PSA8 rantings are OFF-TOPIC here; and, should be relegated to the POST-WWII Sportscard Forum. All it does is
"suck out" all the energy and oxygen from more meaningful and interesting VINTAGE TOPICS that we are normally engaged in.

ON-TOPIC discussions of Hi-end Vintage BB cards are always welcome.....

TED Z

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:06 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: leonl

I am probably a lot closer to the type of collector you are than I am the registry crowd....however, the PSA 8 collectors do get just as much joy as we do by collecting their way. As long as they are mainly talking Pre-WWII cards, PSA 8,9,10,11, whatever...it's ok over here. Talking about post war stuff over here is off topic and somewhat permitted, per the rules...though it should be talked about on the Net54 Post War board we have. I know you and I, and most others on this board, don't just collect by grade but oh well...whatever floats your boat....take care...(time for me to make some coffee)....regards...and btw, good morning to ya !!

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Old 09-24-2007, 09:25 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your response....please understand where I am coming from. I tune into this forum for worthwhile discussions and arguments
regarding Vintage cards....period.

However, a certain "Mr. PSA8", will dominate the discourse on this VINTAGE board....ad nauseum. And, I feel it just turns off people from
providing some great stuff....that this Forum has shown it can engage in.

Do not take my opinion for this, but consider the many "readers" that come to my booth at the Reading Show and engage in some really
great conversations regarding subjects they have read about on Net54. So, I ask them....why they don't post....given their expertise on
specific Vintage subjects they are tuned in on this forum ?

Most (90%) will respond with...."I read some of those controversial threads about....PSA this, and SGC that....and, I'm not going to waste
my time over that crap". In my opinion, remarks like this are very discouraging. Perhaps, you should start another Forum just dedicated to
Hi-end Graded card topics. Actually, you already have one....POST-WAR Sportscard Forum....as that where most of the PSA8 cards reside.

TED Z

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Old 09-24-2007, 09:38 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: leonl

I appreciate the feedback. I understand some folks will be turned off by some of the in-fighting that goes on, on the board, as well as the PSA 8 talks and debates. It's a difficult line to hold since I do agree with you...but as moderator, I feel it's my obligation to be neutral. As long as what is being talked about is Pre-WWII baseball cards then there is not much I can, or will, do. If you want to start another thread and debate it then that is ok.....but my guess, from much experience, is that while a lot of folks don't care for all of the PSA 8 talk, they wouldn't want to ban it either. Also, those same people that said they won't post because of this or that....guess what, it wouldn't matter, they wouldn't post anyway. Heck, sometimes I don't want to post it gets so bad....but I do feel that is also what makes this board good....(the openness to debate anything).....now for more coffee.....One last thing...You know that on severe issues I will take a stand as I have done in the past ie...your favorite poster that doesn't post anymore...

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Old 09-24-2007, 09:46 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimCrandell

Hmmm,

How many PSA 8 posts have I started recently--I can remember one(same as Ted!)...and it was about vintage cards...and it has gotten a lively debate.

There are a lot of other topics on here I don't care about but I don't complain....simply skip them. My favorite topics concern graded vintage cards...and my friends at the shows say why don't we have more threads about graded cards???

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Old 09-24-2007, 10:34 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimB

Ted,
You don't really want to moderate topics of discussion by the number of cards out there, do you? There are not many PSA 8 pre-WWII cards so we shouldn't have to tolerate discussions about them? Would that equally apply to Four Base Hits, Just So, N167, Yum Yum, G&B, E107, Plows Candy, etc. since most people will never own an example? Whatever the numbers, there are people who collect high-grade vintage cards and there is nothing wrong with that. There have been a handful of threads lately covering high-grade cards, but in the scheme of things, they make up probably far less that 1% of the threads on Net54.
Respectfully,
JimB

P.S. For the record, my collection spans the whole range of conditions. Unlike Jim Crandall, I would not cut myself off from cards or issues that I like because they are not available in high grade.

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Old 09-24-2007, 10:37 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Here's what I don't get.

Why does there need to be so much animosity between high-grade and non high-grade collectors? I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with envy or anything like that - I'd find it hard to believe that a guy like Ted, who has two complete T206 sets (congrats on the Sovereign set, Ted), is envious of a guy like Jim. And vice-versa.

What difference does it make? Do guys who collect Diamond Stars dislike the guys who collect Goudeys? Do the guys who collect E-cards dislike the guys who collect T-cards?

It just seems silly to me. Both types of collectors have lots of knowledge they can offer.

For the record, I collect both, and I think they're both beautiful.

-Al

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Old 09-24-2007, 10:42 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

It is silly--some people collect graded, some collect ungraded and the board can have a balance of both--if you don't like one or the other just stay away...easy

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Old 09-24-2007, 11:17 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

while on the surface I agree with you wholeheartedly, you gotta admit the disdain you show and have shown even recently for a card with heavy creases is just as strong as the disdain others have shown for you....

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Old 09-24-2007, 11:19 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Just being honest--There are a fair number of posters who don't like graded cards and they say so--I don't like low-mid grade cards and I say so--as long as it does not get personal its fine.

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Old 09-24-2007, 11:33 AM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Lee Behrens

My feeling as to why there is disdain is this:

There are 2 people that promote it on the board, Jim Crandell & and Dorskin. My quick take on the 2.

Crandell: has promoted the fact that is what he collects quite frequently but he has also contributed to other subjects on the board. I can live with that.

Dorskin: Just shoves the fact that that is what "we" want to buy and continually tells us over and over and contributes nothing else to the board. This gets old, and causes disdain towards him and the "high grade collectors". Bruce is there any chance you can contribute any thing new to this board other than the same old crap?

One other note I also agree with Ted to a point about not needing to clarify this is a pre War board and there still is too much post war on this board. To me all should be transferred to the post war when posted. That to me is why it was set up.

Lee

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Old 09-24-2007, 07:07 PM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEE B

You summed it up pretty well with your last paragraph....

"One other note I also agree with Ted to a point about not needing to clarify this is a pre War board
and there still is too much post war on this board. To me all should be transferred to the post war
when posted. That to me is why it was set up."

Now, how can we persuade LEON to be (or delegate someone) the TRANFER AGENT. Then we can un-
burden the Vintage Forum of threads that really belong in the POST-WAR Forum (i.e., most PSA 8 re-
lated threads).

Great suggestion, Lee.

TED Z

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:12 PM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Lee Behrens

edited as there won't be any emails posted on this board.....regards

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:22 PM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Well, that's interesting.....I, too, received an email from "professor(s)" Dorskind.

Not as interesting as your....just some mundane grammatical correction. But, this is simply amazing, we now can
expect condescending "hate mail" from the "elitetists" on Net54 who for some unknown reasons simply don't like us.

TED z

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:35 PM
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Default What is the POPulation of PSA8 Pre-War collectors..SURVEY ?

Posted By: DMcD

At least t(he)y didn't threaten to sue you.

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:35 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon counted zero post-war threads good try Ted but you are wrong once again--you need help--I suggest you reread the other thread to understand how you lost control when I tried to help you.

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Old 09-24-2007, 08:35 PM
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Posted By: JimB

"Then we can un-
burden the Vintage Forum of threads that really belong in the POST-WAR Forum (i.e., most PSA 8 re-
lated threads)."

Was it the thread about high-grade T205s, T206s, or N172s that was particularly bothersome and needs to be sent to the post-war forum?

I am not defending the behavior of any individuals here, but I don't think discussion of high-grade cards is really an issue that is off-topic. Are people condescending about the types of cards others collect and is that bothersome? YES. Does it happen in equal amounts in both directions? No. There is vastly more criticism of high-grade collecting on this forum. It comes as everything from seemingly off-hand comments to the regular insinuation that those who collect high-grade stuff are not "real" collectors like those who collect in "collector's condition". Are there a couple of people who are very rude and condescending towards low and mid-grade collectors? Yes. Both sides are guilty in my opinion. I cringe and what I hear coming from both sides.

I just cannot comprehend why people feel compelled to be so critical about the way others collect. Personally, I am glad when people collect in a different way from me. That usually means there will be less competititon for the cards I like. To each their own. A little tolerance would go a long way around here.
JimB

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Old 09-24-2007, 09:57 PM
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Posted By: Joann

It's way past time for me to be off of this computer, but I can't keep myself from responding here.


Know what I have seen from Jim C in the past few weeks?

- Interesting threads started

- Helpful comments and knowledgeable insights as to the world of high-grade collectors

- Awesome posts of high grade cards.



Know what I haven't seen from Jim C in the past few weeks?

- Insulting comments about the economic standing of lower grade collectors

- Hyper-defensiveness to perceived insults, even in the face of what I would call a few pointed jabs.



I really think Jim has added a lot to the board recently, and that he has not responded to a few comments that could almost be characterized as baiting.

So how is a high grade collector supposed to respond to low end cards? There are some cards that I just don't like to the point that the dislike is almost visceral. I don't like the cartoonish strip cards, and a few of Ruth and Cobb make me literally (and I mean literally) cringe a bit when I see them. For the most part, post-1915 black and whites make me go yuck (although no cringing).

Is it wrong to just plain not like some cards just because the appearance really puts you off? That doesn't mean I don't understand and respect strip card collectors or BW collectors. It just means that I don't like looking at the cards very much. To each his own, as Leon says.

So what is Jim supposed to say if he doesn't like looking at low and mid-grade cards? The problem is that inherent in lower conditions is the issue of income of the collector in many cases. So it has to be very hard to communicate a dislike for the cards without the collectors perceiving an implied comment about the money they cost, and the overall economic position of low to mid grade cards.

As long as the comments are limited to the cards, and no attached comments about the collectors and their place in the economic ladder, I can't see a problem and am stumped as to what else can be expected. I know that in the past there have been collector-directed comments given hand-in-hand with the card-directed comments.* The many and various Dorskinds have made a career out of this (yes, I am still rotting away in my little shack). But if there is no such comment, then I choose not to read one into a remark about cards. And I have seen no such comments in any of Jim's recent posts.

Finally, I think the "Stengel would be rolling in his grave" comment on the T210 graded VG was hilarious. It was clearly tongue-in-cheek, and a perfect example of the kind of relaxed, self-conscious humor (on Jim's part in this case) that can make arguments disappear.

Just my opinion. Sorry it's a long one, but for as much as some of the past arguments and behavior have resulted in many words against Jim - I have voiced offense by his comments on more than one occasion - I thought the recent tone of the board and his contributions and restraint deserved some equal comment. Fair is fair.

Joann

(Ted - you know I hold you in the highest regard because of the raw extent of your knowledge, so please don't take my comments as a repudiation of you and your strong beliefs. And it was good finally meeting you at the National, BTW.)

* This sentence will be my entry into the next use-of-hyphen contest in my area.

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population and value bump of auto pre war cards Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 10 05-08-2006 05:35 PM
The idiocy of eBay- not even pre-war collectors are exempt Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 02-19-2006 05:41 PM
This is the card for all Pre-war collectors Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 4 02-02-2003 10:23 AM


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