Probstein video about trimmed cards

[parkplace33]

Rick Probstein posted a video about trimmed cards on his instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsRwBAtL8_o/

It’s only two minutes but here are the takeaways:

1. Rick doesn’t care if a graded card in his collection is trimmed (and not graded as such).
2. Rick would take consignments from alleged trimmers if the card was already graded.

Interesting times.

[BobbyStrawberry]

IMO it says more about Rick than our times

[Snowman]

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

[Johnny630]

Market Moving Guys Don't Care once in a PSA holder with a number grade it's gravy train baby!!!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

I couldn't agree more about there being millions of trimmed cards already graded with many more being graded daily. I also can't imagine a business turning down cash by not listing graded cards.

[Leon]

Unfortunate, but true. That is why I mostly collect cards, with big borders, that probably aren't trimmed...

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Is it as fun as his Mastro interview video?

[raulus]

I suspect it’s the brazenness as much as anything that is so appalling. It’s one thing to admit that it’s an issue that can’t really be solved with our current methods, and it’s another thing to suggest that you don’t give a hoot.

[refz]

It all boils down to the Almighty Dollar end of story. I’m so sick of seeing this guy in the headlines. If you think he’s shady stay away, if you like him go give him a hug.

[Facilitypro]

He also made a video dressing down someone who asked that their wining bid be canceled, all while frequently canceling his own auctions that aren't bid up as much as he likes.

Mich@el M@rks

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by raulus

I suspect it’s the brazenness as much as anything that is so appalling. It’s one thing to admit that it’s an issue that can’t really be solved with our current methods, and it’s another thing to suggest that you don’t give a hoot.

Agreed, the hubris is at an all time high. Scary

[perezfan]

What a waste of 2 minutes.... Collecting for the lowest common denominator. No conflict of interest there.

Why even have the designation of "A" if it doesn't matter whether a card is trimmed? This is the equivalent of Mastro posting a video stating it wouldn't bother him if he knew his item was shilled.

[jingram058]

I don't worry about that sort of thing, because all my cards are raw. I just collect cards.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Why would anyone expect a consignment company to grade the grading companies? His stance is the most obvious stance that any business would take. If PSA or SGC slabbed it, then he'll list it. Seems like a no brainer. There are millions of trimmed cards in this hobby. Good luck tracking them all down.

Yup

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Market Moving Guys Don't Care once in a PSA holder with a number grade it's gravy train baby!!!

Yup

Originally Posted by bnorth

I couldn't agree more about there being millions of trimmed cards already graded with many more being graded daily. I also can't imagine a business turning down cash by not listing graded cards.

Yup

I don't agree with his point of view but I can see where where he's coming from. My take is that at least you know where he stands and that you can surmise he won't provide a refund on a holdered/slabbed card (with a numerical grade) that a buyer suspects is trimmed or altered. However, I would guess he might consider a refund, or some other course of action, if the buyer is a whale of a customer that he depends on to fatten his wallet.

I see this as his way of putting it out there. It's kind of hard to blame him because he's a business man offering a service for which people will willingly accept mediocrity.

I've purchased from him before and will continue to do so if the card is something I want and through my observation doesn't appear to be altered (or would be willing to accept the card as such).

I don't think that a few collectors boycotting his auctions is going to make a difference. Sadly, this seems to be the collecting world we live in. This is one of those lines that is very blurred.

The only way a difference will be made is if the TPGs are somehow made accountable and we know that isn't going to happen.

PSA8 Wagner T206.jpg

[Peter_Spaeth]

No different than most auction houses. The flip sanitizes all, and card doctors have triumphed. So it goes. The unholy alliance goes on.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No different than most auction houses. The flip sanitizes all, and card doctors have triumphed. So it goes. The unholy alliance goes on.

It's a tough spot. How much time can an auction company afford to spend to redo the job that the TPG was supposed to do with the added handicap of trying to do it through the slab?

That being said there's a difference between missing a problem and being complicit in one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's a tough spot. How much time can an auction company afford to spend to redo the job that the TPG was supposed to do with the added handicap of trying to do it through the slab?

That being said there's a difference between missing a problem and being complicit in one.

I know you don't do it, but most of them knowingly take consignments from known card doctors. You don't need to examine the cards that carefully to know the score.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I know you don't do it, but most of them knowingly take consignments from known card doctors. You don't need to examine the cards that carefully to know the score.

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

[Leon]

I agree with most of this. However, those before and after pictures are almost universally real and show fraud. I wouldn't discount their chain of custody.
Part of the problem is the apathy about it in the industry, as you also seem to be that way. And I get it....But we can't just ignore all of the fraud because it's ubiquitous.

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think Rick addressed that issue fairly well when he emphasized them as being "alleged" trimmers. Just because some intentionally anonymous guy on the internet found some before and after pics of a card sold by XYZ123 that was purchased 3 years prior by VCP masked ID **Z doesn't mean that Joe the Plumber is a card trimmer. And just because some fraudster that has a YouTube channel where he calls people out and publishes a "secret list from an insider" doesn't many anyone, let alone everyone, on that list is also a card trimmer.

I'm not saying that all those accused are innocent. Surely, some are not. But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. And it wouldn't even do anything anyway. If someone were banned from consigning cards with Probstein, they'd just have their spouse, brother, weed dealer, brother, sister, or pastor send it in for them.

This 100 percent. You may not like it, but people have accepted it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

But it shouldn't be Probstein's job to hold a trial on every hobbyist that gets blasted by hobby clowns on social media. them.

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

[rhettyeakley]

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

+100

Always the same people defending as well.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

I find fascinating the amount of cynicism on this issue from members who seem very uncynical about many other things.

I guess it just comes down to money? If you or someone else is making a bunch of it, then who really cares about right and wrong? Now THAT is emblematic of out society today...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

+100

Always the same people defending as well.

Not really, it depends on WHO is being called out by who defends them.

[Steve D]

I look at it this as more of a discussion about "eye appeal", than of trimming.

There are plenty of cards that are untrimmed, but have poor eye appeal for the grade; I stay away from those, as even if you pay a low price, you still have a card you think is ugly.

On the other hand, there are cards that have outstanding eye appeal for the grade, and some of them may be trimmed. The bottom line for me, is the eye appeal.....if the eye appeal is good to me, it doesn't really matter if it might be trimmed; I know I like the card, but I do not know for certain that it is trimmed.

Basically, for me, if the eye appeal outweighs the possibility of trimming, then I would probably enjoy having the card.

Steve

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I look at it this as more of a discussion about "eye appeal", than of trimming.

There are plenty of cards that are untrimmed, but have poor eye appeal for the grade; I stay away from those, as even if you pay a low price, you still have a card you think is ugly.

On the other hand, there are cards that have outstanding eye appeal for the grade, and some of them may be trimmed. The bottom line for me, is the eye appeal.....if the eye appeal is good to me, it doesn't really matter if it might be trimmed; I know I like the card, but I do not know for certain that it is trimmed.

Basically, for me, if the eye appeal outweighs the possibility of trimming, then I would probably enjoy having the card.

Steve

Well, the eye appeal thing makes sense, but the trimming part most are referencing has to do with cards that are receiving high numerical grades which translates to $$$$ (many cases it's not petty cash).

There's a lot in play. Start with "ethics: Those that trim for the purpose of deception; grading companies that turn a blind eye; sellers that don't give a crap; investors that only care about making a buck and don't care about the hobby impacts.

Proceed to FRAUD. The end result is a community of hobbyist/collectors/investors that all have different views on it. Go back to ethics and start there.

[molenick]

I am trying to complete a high grade Diamond Stars set. I do my best to avoid cards that have been "outed" on the Blowout board or that look trimmed to my eye, and I only buy from reputable auction houses. But at this point, it is possible probable that I have some trimmed cards. I don't have the heart to research every one and it makes me wary of buying any more cards in higher condition.

After Blowout started posting before/after photos of trimmed cards, I was contacted by PWCC and they offered to buy back the cards they sold me that were listed (I got an email from them about each card). I can't remember, but this was maybe two or three Leafs in total. I also found an E card that was listed and they bought that back as well. I am guessing this was in 2019 or 2020. I have not had this happen with other sellers. Of course, PWCC was the one selling the trimmed cards in the first place, so that doesn't absolve them. But at least they bought back the cards they sold me that had been publicly identified as trimmed or altered.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by molenick

I am trying to complete a high grade Diamond Stars set. I do my best to avoid cards that have been "outed" on the Blowout board or that look trimmed to my eye, and I only buy from reputable auction houses. But at this point, it is possible probable that I have some trimmed cards. I don't have the heart to research every one and it makes me wary of buying any more cards in higher condition.

After Blowout started posting before/after photos of trimmed cards, I was contacted by PWCC and they offered to buy back the cards they sold me that were listed (I got an email from them about each card). I can't remember, but this was maybe two or three Leafs in total. I also found an E card that was listed and they bought that back as well. I am guessing this was in 2019 or 2020. I have not had this happen with other sellers. Of course, PWCC was the one selling the trimmed cards in the first place, so that doesn't absolve them. But at least they bought back the cards they sold me that had been publicly identified as trimmed or altered.

Good thing the "Hobby Clowns" (according to the Snowman here) brought needed awareness to this fraud, or you never would have been refunded.

Aside from those "Hobby Clowns", the only other reason you got refunded was that another Board Member here (who legally represented PWCC while the FBI was investigating them) advised Brent to offer full refunds on all the altered cards that were exposed. He probably kept Brent out of jail in doing so.

The "Hobby Clowns" put in countless hours (with no pay and no benefit to themselves) to expose the blatant fraud, and still probably caught less than 5% of the doctored cards out there. The hundreds of hours and level of detail they had to dig into was overwhelming. So to see them demeaned in a thread like this is misguided and imbecilic.

[G1911]

Nobody should be surprised to see this from the guy who spends most of his posts shilling for known fraudsters or trying to justify why it’s okay to do when even he can’t think of a defense.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

1. Rick doesn’t care if a graded card in his collection is trimmed (and not graded as such).

Oh man! If I was the owner of that high-grade 52T Mantle (he showed in the video) and I later found out that it was trimmed ... That would hurt!!! And yes, I would get rid of it too!

[molenick]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Good thing the "Hobby Clowns" (according to the Snowman here) brought needed awareness to this fraud, or you never would have been refunded.

Aside from those "Hobby Clowns", the only other reason you got refunded was that another Board Member here (who legally represented PWCC while the FBI was investigating them) advised Brent to offer full refunds on all the altered cards that were exposed. He probably kept Brent out of jail in doing so.

The "Hobby Clowns" put in countless hours (with no pay and no benefit to themselves) to expose the blatant fraud, and still probably caught less than 5% of the doctored cards out there. The hundreds of hours and level of detail they had to dig into was overwhelming. So to see them demeaned in a thread like this is misguided and imbecilic.

Yes, I really should thank the Blowout crowd and the lawyer who advised PWCC to offer refunds.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

Given how I was educated in the hobby, I find the increasing indifference of so many people, particularly the next generation, shocking. And then even beyond that to hear the defenders -- oh it's not their job, so it's fine if they enable the card doctors. I am sure it's realistic, but still.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree with most of this. However, those before and after pictures are almost universally real and show fraud. I wouldn't discount their chain of custody.
Part of the problem is the apathy about it in the industry, as you also seem to be that way. And I get it....But we can't just ignore all of the fraud because it's ubiquitous.

I find myself somewhere in the middle on this issue. Are there scumbags who earn their living by slicing up cards and flipping them for huge proftis by getting them past the grading companies? Yes, absolutely. Are some, perhaps many, of those called out by BODA actually the people responsible? Surely, yes some are. Are all of those called out by BODA responsible for this behavior? Highly doubtful, IMO.

I'm grateful that this stuff was discovered. No question about that. I just pump the brakes when the mob wants heads to roll over accusations that are far from proven. And even then, I remain unconvinced that it's a crime.

The only people who think this trimming cards is criminal behavior are a small subset of collectors. You could explain card trimming to 100 random strangers on the street and ask them what they think about it, and the responses you'll hear from them will all be something along the lines of, "clever", "smart", "genius", or "where do I learn how to do that?" You might find 1 person out of 100 that would say, "lock them up!" It's just the reality of the situation. People just don't care. Certainly not enough people for it to ever change anyhow. It is what it is.

I like the fact that the curtain has been unveiled. I know which cards I don't want in my collection, and I have educated myself enough to know how to avoid them. I know the risks every time I crack open a slab, and that I may never be able to get that card back into the same holder. I try to navigate this hobby with knowledge and experience. Others seem to want to navigate it with grenades.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

While I appreciate the thought, as it is something that obviously concerns me too, the idea that the card doctors are worthy of defense and those who are trying to expose them are described as hobby clowns is somewhat interesting.

I'm not referring to the BODA people as hobby clowns. I'm referring to the guys on youtube and social media whose entire existence is just to slander people left and right and $#!+ on the hobby every day.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Good thing the "Hobby Clowns" (according to the Snowman here) brought needed awareness to this fraud, or you never would have been refunded.

Aside from those "Hobby Clowns", the only other reason you got refunded was that another Board Member here (who legally represented PWCC while the FBI was investigating them) advised Brent to offer full refunds on all the altered cards that were exposed. He probably kept Brent out of jail in doing so.

The "Hobby Clowns" put in countless hours (with no pay and no benefit to themselves) to expose the blatant fraud, and still probably caught less than 5% of the doctored cards out there. The hundreds of hours and level of detail they had to dig into was overwhelming. So to see them demeaned in a thread like this is misguided and imbecilic.

Again, I was not referring to BODA when I said "hobby clowns".

Brent likely could have represented himself and nothing would have happened to him. An auction house selling graded cards that trimmers consigned is very clearly not a crime. Even if they knew about it.

In fact, I'll take that a step further. I believe Brent could have sat on the witness stand and openly admitted to trimming cards himself, getting them regraded, putting a "PWCC-S" eye appeal sticker on it, and reselling it on his platform for massive profits and he still wouldn't have been convicted of committing a crime.

"Less than 5%" lol. Yes, 0.00001 is less than 5. Your math checks out

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I find myself somewhere in the middle on this issue. Are there scumbags who earn their living by slicing up cards and flipping them for huge proftis by getting them past the grading companies? Yes, absolutely. Are some, perhaps many, of those called out by BODA actually the people responsible? Surely, yes some are. Are all of those called out by BODA responsible for this behavior? Highly doubtful, IMO.

I'm grateful that this stuff was discovered. No question about that. I just pump the brakes when the mob wants heads to roll over accusations that are far from proven. And even then, I remain unconvinced that it's a crime.

The only people who think this trimming cards is criminal behavior are a small subset of collectors. You could explain card trimming to 100 random strangers on the street and ask them what they think about it, and the responses you'll hear from them will all be something along the lines of, "clever", "smart", "genius", or "where do I learn how to do that?" You might find 1 person out of 100 that would say, "lock them up!" It's just the reality of the situation. People just don't care. Certainly not enough people for it to ever change anyhow. It is what it is.

I like the fact that the curtain has been unveiled. I know which cards I don't want in my collection, and I have educated myself enough to know how to avoid them. I know the risks every time I crack open a slab, and that I may never be able to get that card back into the same holder. I try to navigate this hobby with knowledge and experience. Others seem to want to navigate it with grenades.

I think your estimates are way off. The percentage of people who would think undisclosed card-trimming for resale is criminal would be much higher... if it's framed accurately, of course.

Q: Do you think people who take baseball cards and make them look nicer are committing a crime?
A: Uh, no.

Q: What if those people advertise those cards for sale as untrimmed, without disclosing to prospective buyers that they're actually trimmed?
A: OK, that's not great.

Q: And what if they don't disclose the trimming because then the cards would appeal to a much smaller number of buyers, significantly bringing down the market value?
A: Yeah, that sounds like fraud. The buyers have a right to know.

On that last question, I'd guess the percentage of people calling it an ingenius scheme and asking for a tutorial would be no higher than 40-50%. Society's not 99% scumbag quite yet. Inching closer, sure, but not quite there.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I think your estimates are way off. The percentage of people who would think undisclosed card-trimming for resale is criminal would be much higher... if it's framed accurately, of course.

Q: Do you think people who take baseball cards and make them look nicer are committing a crime?
A: Uh, no.

Q: What if those people advertise those cards for sale as untrimmed, without disclosing to prospective buyers that they're actually trimmed?
A: OK, that's not great.

Q: And what if they don't disclose the trimming because then the cards would appeal to a much smaller number of buyers, significantly bringing down the market value?
A: Yeah, that sounds like fraud. The buyers have a right to know.

On that last question, I'd guess the percentage of people calling it an ingenius scheme and asking for a tutorial would be no higher than 40-50%. Society's not 99% scumbag quite yet. Inching closer, sure, but not quite there.

You're making a lot of assumptions though and giving someone a narrative to agree to. If card trimming isn't a crime to begin with and if it in fact does not devalue a card whatsoever, then you've misled your audience and just gotten them to agree to your strawman.

It is perhaps worth noting that not all trimmed cards are the same. Some are definitely worth less after they've been trimmed. Others are definitely not.

[Leon]

Money

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

We hold those that sell and deal in the cards we care about to such a low standard that all these shenanigans are accepted…as long as the item is shipped quickly 🤣

Other hobbies/industries have an established set of ethics that must be upheld to continue to be part of the community…

This industry is NOT one of those. We accept card-doctors, liars, cheaters, thieves, pumpers-dumpers and all around sleaze-balls.

Not sure why we (as a community) do it but we have sent the clear message that “stuff” trumps ethics.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Snowman

You're making a lot of assumptions though and giving someone a narrative to agree to. If card trimming isn't a crime to begin with and if it in fact does not devalue a card whatsoever, then you've misled your audience and just gotten them to agree to your strawman.

It is perhaps worth noting that not all trimmed cards are the same. Some are definitely worth less after they've been trimmed. Others are definitely not.

Can you give concrete examples of cards that are worth more trimmed than left alone? If we make the issue less abstract, then maybe we can find some common ground.

I'm operating from the assumption that people who know that a card is trimmed and fail to disclose it are doing so because they see financial value in keeping others in the dark. If trimming the card didn't negatively affect its market, then there would be no logical reason to keep it a secret.

If you're suggesting that some trimming "does not devalue a card whatsoever" because people who are none the wiser pay top dollar, then I think we're simply at opposite ends of the ethical spectrum. The relevant question for me isn't whether the money is there given the state of the hobby as it stands, where ignorance is bliss, but rather whether the same money would still be there if the cards were sold as "Authentic Altered," rather than stuck in slabs with numeric grades.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Can you give concrete examples of cards that are worth more trimmed than left alone? If we make the issue less abstract, then maybe we can find some common ground.

I'm operating from the assumption that people who know that a card is trimmed and fail to disclose it are doing so because they see financial value in keeping others in the dark. If trimming the card didn't negatively affect its market, then there would be no logical reason to keep it a secret.

If you're suggesting that some trimming "does not devalue a card whatsoever" because people who are none the wiser pay top dollar, then I think we're simply at opposite ends of the ethical spectrum. The relevant question for me isn't whether the money is there given the state of the hobby as it stands, where ignorance is bliss, but rather whether the same money would still be there if the cards were sold as "Authentic Altered," rather than stuck in slabs with numeric grades.

There is that T206 Wagner that started it all.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by bnorth

There is that T206 Wagner that started it all.

Yeah. I wonder if 99 out of 100 people on the street would say Mastro was railroaded. If so, God help us.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

This is fair, but I think of the slabbed card as "laundered money" in this context.

If an auction house has no reason to suspect that the consignor is laundering trimmed cards through a third-party grader, then I wouldn't hold the auction house accountable.

If an auction house is doing business with a known trimmer, we're getting into an ethical gray area, but there's too much uncertainty to hold the auction house accountable for individual listings.

If an auction house is knowingly taking trimmed cards that were slabbed as unaltered, then they're essentially just fencing fraudulent goods.

I don't think the slabs make trimming an immaterial fact; I think they just make it much harder to detect. I still think it's worthwhile to identify altered cards when possible and to pass that information along to consumers. We're probably just talking past each other, but Travis' "hobby clowns" reference gave me the impression that he sees Probstein and others as the real victims now that they've successfully flooded the market with secretly altered cards, and that left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

This is fair, but I think of the slabbed card as "laundered money" in this context.

If an auction house has no reason to suspect that the consignor is laundering trimmed cards through a third-party grader, then I wouldn't hold the auction house accountable.

If an auction house is doing business with a known trimmer, we're getting into an ethical gray area, but there's too much uncertainty to hold the auction house accountable for individual listings.

If an auction house is knowingly taking trimmed cards that were slabbed as unaltered, then they're essentially just fencing fraudulent goods.

I don't think the slabs make trimming an immaterial fact; I think they just make it much harder to detect. I still think it's worthwhile to identify altered cards when possible and to pass that information along to consumers. We're probably just talking past each other, but Travis' "hobby clowns" reference gave me the impression that he sees Probstein and others as the real victims now that they've successfully flooded the market with secretly altered cards, and that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Nobody objects to alteration as much as I do, or tried as hard to publicly make the case that knowingly selling trimmed cards is criminal, but based on what I see in terms of people not caring and prices not being affected, I'm not so sure any more about the materiality element.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To put some legal context on this, selling an item in interstate commerce knowing a material fact has been misrepresented or omitted certainly can be mail fraud and/or wire fraud. Travis' point, essentially, is that we have reached the point where the fact that a slabbed card is trimmed is no longer material. Incredibly, and sadly, he may be right. The flip is the commodity and the slab sanitizes.

Yes, precisely. The market doesn't care whether or not a card is trimmed. The market only cares whether or not a card is labeled as trimmed by a TPG.

And to take that a step further, a raw card's value is determined by its ability to pass through grading, or more specifically, by whether or not it bears evidence of having been trimmed, not by whether or not it actually has been.

Billy Bob can sell you a raw card at a steep discount because he believes it has been trimmed. After all, the person he bought it from told him so. Billy Bob keeps good notes and he cares about his integrity. He goes to church on Sundays AND Wednesdays. But if you resell that card, you have no obligation whatsoever to pass that information along after having it graded by a TPG. Billy Bob's opinion is irrelevant. The market doesn't care what he thinks.

Also, if you think the card is less valuable because you sold it below comps after you attached a note to it that read "the guy I bought this from told me it was trimmed", despite the PSA 9 label suggesting otherwise, you'd be wrong. All you did was sell the buyer a full value PSA 9 card at a discount, effectively handing him free money by shooting yourself in the foot. You might reason that your integrity is on the line. Others might argue that it's just your ignorance on display and that you're virtue signaling and paying off someone else so you can feel better about yourself. Again, the market doesn't care. The market is a cold beast.

[G1911]

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

This is fair, but I think of the slabbed card as "laundered money" in this context.

Perhaps that's a fair way to view a botched-up card that is clearly trimmed and passed through grading because the grader just finished a line of coke in the bathroom prior to examining it, but is it really "laundered money" though if the card can be cracked out and resubmitted 100 times having passed grading each time because it doesn't actually bear any evidence of trimming?

This is the problem we're up against. Many of these cards that were identified as trimmed by BODA were reexamined by the best graders in the world, and those graders still couldn't find any physical evidence of trimming. Yes, I know you can write this off as a conspiracy and claim that it's just an obvious conflict of interest, but you'd be a fool to think that sufficiently explains away the problem. A card can indeed be trimmed and yet be completely indistinguishable from one with a factory-cut edge. This fact gets overlooked, or worse, rejected by too many people in this hobby. Yet it is the single most important truth in the entire discussion when trying to come up with solutions.

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Travis' "hobby clowns" reference gave me the impression that he sees Probstein and others as the real victims now that they've successfully flooded the market with secretly altered cards, and that left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm defending businesses like Probstein's because it's not their responsibility to police this stuff. That would be like expecting a pawn shop to have to scour the web for hours every day, checking to see if a set of golf clubs that someone brought into their shop may have been stolen property. The hobby clowns are barking up the wrong trees. Constantly. SCR is the worst.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The irony. PSA, whose very premise (the stated one anyhow) was to catch card doctoring, is a major player in legitimizing card doctoring. Probably the most important one. It's almost funny.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Let's say we have 2 copies of the same card in the same condition, except that 1 is trimmed and 1 is not. They are sold honestly; with the small trimmed strip included alongside the rest of the card. We all know which one is worth more and will sell for more.

A trimmed card is only as valuable as an untrimmed card if a grading company doesn't catch it or corruptly grades it anyway and there is a perception that the card is unaltered or many people will believe it to be and thus can be suckered into paying more for it when the owner flips it.

If I make a fake diamond and sneak my fake past an expert, it's still a fake that is worth less and I commit fraud if I sell it as original, because that is a material fact I am hiding to deceive a buyer and make more money. We don't say it is not fraud because the fraud was successful and an alleged expert was tricked. I can't think of an example where the success of a fraud scheme makes it not fraud. Tricking a corporation, or their complicity in the scheme, does not make something not fraud.

I understand we have a great number of hobbyists that love fraud (at least when committed by themselves or the people they like), but this makes no sense at all.

But suppose people don't care if it's fake, only what it looks like? Is it still material? Don't fight the hypothetical, assume my facts. Isn't that the analogy here at least to how many collectors now think? I would bet my life you could prove to many set registrants they had fake cards (altered anyhow) and they would not get rid of them, but would keep them because what matters to them is the registry ranking.