The National in Baltimore

[pgellis]

I have never been to a National show before and since this year it is in Baltimore I have been thinking about attending for the first time. I was actually about to book a hotel room for the weekend the other night, but decided to "sleep on it".
My thoughts are that I will have to spend about $1000.00 for my wife and I to attend for the weekend. We would probably drive and stay 3 nights at a nice hotel, admission, tix to an Orioles game, food, etc.
I was wondering what other's experiences at the National are with regards to sale prices.
- Do you get any "bargains" at the National?
- Can you get some nice pre-war cards at book value or below?
- Or is everything over-priced?

I know that you will see many rarities in person, but is there value at the show?

The reason I am asking is that if I have to plunk down about $1K before I buy a single card, would it be better just to spend that $1K on a nice card in one of the current or upcoming big auctions? I know that the experience at the National goes beyond just finding bargains and buying cards, but I'm just wondering what others have experienced before at the show.

[scottglevy]

I haven't been to too many of them myself....but I've never been disappointed when attending one. All the best cards, biggest dealers, rarest examples and widest selection in one place at one time is found at the national.

But your question was 'is it worth it'. To which I reply, "Why are you going?"

If you're going with 5-10k in your pocket to just pick up some relatively common stuff (and not gain much else from the experience) and it's going to cost you a 1k just to get and stay there - I'd say 'no'. Save your cash for an auction or local show.

But.....if you're going to experience the hobby live and up front - not through some computer screen or catalog -- and you're open to talking with collectors and dealers and soaking in the atmosphere - I'd say 'yes, well worth it'.

Also, if you're a big fish with a 50k+ bankroll, you simply gotta go.

Regards,
Scott

[frankb22]

It might be difficult to justify from a value perspective on the cards
alone. In other words, I doubt you'll save on the cards at all, let alone
make up your expenses. The experience as a whole is where the value
is. You do get to see what everyone has available in a way that would be
tough to replicate online.

[timzcardz]

I can't comment on the pricing as this will be my first National as well, but with the economy the way it is, and the number of dealers in one place, I assume that like any other shows, there has to be some deals as well as inflated overprices.

And yes, $1000 just to go to a show would be a bit much, but not all that much for a vacation getaway.

I'm already into this for $1000 for a room for the week for my wife, son and I. Looking forward to getting there a few days before and unwind/relax for a few days doing touristy things around the inner harbor with the family, followed by a few days at the convention.

Throw in a ball game or two, some dining and spirits, and I think that it will be money well spent.

[pgellis]

DELETED - I'm just surprised that if you don't start a negative, attack thread or expose somebody for some shady practices, that nobody seems to care anymore on this board. I was just asking for some feedback. Not interesting enough to most people. I am not a big fish on this board, but I have been around long enough to see how much this board has changed in the past couple of years. Oh well, I guess I won't bother with Baltimore this year. I was hoping for some positive feedback on the National, but we know that it is easier to add negative thoughts/criticism than to add positive thoughts. Oh well............

[Leon]

I think you're right. There are a few people that seem to want to make more jokes and negativity than post in a constructive manner. The people above answered it fairly well though. Scott nailed it early on and there wasn't a lot else to say about it. If you are going there to have a good time, meet other collectors and then...maybe pick up a few cards, it's money well spent. If you are going there solely to purchase cards, then depending on your budget, with the $1000 expense in mind, it's probably not worth it. You can do the auctions and ebay and probably get far more cards. The real fun is meeting other collectors and hootin' and hollerin'. regards

[pgellis]

Thanks Leon. That's what I was looking for today. I wanted to make a decision soon about putting up $1K to visit Baltimore in August. I wanted to go there to "take it all in", but I also wanted to go there to buy some cards, and going there after spendin $1K to just spend the weekend there was not going to do it for me.....I wanted to purchase some cards too.......so I wanted to know if I could expect any bargains.

Again, Leon thank you for your response. I hate to see where this board has headed the past week or two. It seems that if you can't "slam" somebody, you don't bother to add a post and I simply was asking for some experience.

Thanks.

[Rob D.]

Phil,

My favorite pick-up of 2009 came at the National in Cleveland. The following is what I wrote in a "What was your favorite pick-up of the year" thread. It sums up my feeling about attending the National:

I think this one is my favorite not only because of the card itself but because I bought it in person at the National. No auction. No staying up until 3 a.m. to see if a bid holds up. No worrying about shilling and the like. No "great guys." There's something to be said about holding a card (or slab, in this case) in your hand, looking the seller in the eye and attempting to reach a deal.

[Danny Smith]

I really enjoy going to the national every year. If you are a fan of old baseball and old cards it is a a blast. Deals can definitely be had but there are also some out of whack prices. Its obviously going to cost some cash just to get there and if your budget is limited it will obviously put a dent in your buying power - but for me the cash I have to throw down just to get to the national every year is worth the experience and fun I have every year.

[Northviewcats]

Phil,

Like you I wonder if the experience at Nationals is worth the expense. Especially, when you say that you could spend the $1000.00 on a nice card at auction. I don't own a card that is worth that much, so it sounds like a no-brainer. Stay at home and enjoy your new card.

BUT... Nationals is a collecting experience on steroids. I've only gone a couple of times, but I haven't regretted spending the money to get there. True the prices are higher than what you would spend at eBay. But you will see so many beautiful cards. I remember at my first Nationals that my jaw dropped when I saw a whole case of vintage Mantles. All the cards that I owned as a kid were there in any condition that a collector could afford. In my ignorance I thought that 1961 Mantle was really rare, but there were enough Mantles in that one vendor's case to wall paper my bathroom with them.

I also think that you can get some buys if you look carefully. My strategy is to look for small vendors who have accumulated a large collection throughout the years and just want to sell what they have collected for a fair price. I bought a raw T206 Cy Young in VG condition for $150.00 last year in Cleveland. I haven't seen one sell for under $250.00 on eBay this past year. I know there are several other collectors that I met in Cleveland last year and made some good deals.

This brings me up to the most important reason to go to Nationals. Its a great place to meet your fellow Net54 members. Hopefully there will be another Net54 dinner this year, but even meeting members on the floor was well worth the price I paid to attend the event.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by pgellis

DELETED - I'm just surprised that if you don't start a negative, attack thread or expose somebody for some shady practices, that nobody seems to care anymore on this board. I was just asking for some feedback. Not interesting enough to most people. I am not a big fish on this board, but I have been around long enough to see how much this board has changed in the past couple of years. Oh well, I guess I won't bother with Baltimore this year. I was hoping for some positive feedback on the National, but we know that it is easier to add negative thoughts/criticism than to add positive thoughts. Oh well............

I must have missed something here, maybe a post was deleted, but I don't see where this thread went off the rails. Anyway, not much I can add to what others have already posted about the National being a great place to meet up with other collectors, see tons of beautiful cards and memorabilia, and generally soak up the rich atmosphere. Speaking specifically to your question of whether bargains are to be found, my experience, having attended two Nationals, is that much of what is there is overpriced although there are bargains to be had and you will have every opportunity to haggle. In addition you will see myriad stuff you never even knew existed and which you wouldn't be likely to run across elsewhere, particularly eBay. In Chicago I picked up a flock of esoteric items at prices I was cool with such as Player League cabinets from Terry Knouse, Billikens from Ryan Christoff and funky 1930's Japanese cards from Robert Klevens. I also was able to upgrade dozens of beaters from some of my '50's Topps sets at like a buck a card. If your main criteria for attending is whether you would perhaps be able to acquire something of more tangible value with your $1000 if you didn't go to Baltimore I can't offer assurance one way or the other. For me however, the five thousand bucks it's gonna take to get me and my wife from HonHI to Balto is a bargain on a priceless experience.

[sox1903wschamp]

Hi Phil,

Very valid questions. I went to a few Nationals in the 80's and then was able to make Cleveland in 07 and Chicago in 08.

As many posted above, it is a great opportunity to meet fellow collectors, see awesome stuff in person and just enjoy the atmosphere.

As for my experience, I loved working on upgrading my 50's and 60's sets and prices were resonable and selection was over the top with multiples to choose from of most cards which makes it more fun for a centering freak like me. I really enjoy spending hours going through boxes and pages of cards looking for cards that appeal to me. But that's me

I did find some pre-war cards that were priced reasonable but I think you have to really look to find these. Picked up a couple of T-204 Ramly's in Chicago that I was happy about. Most Pre war is priced above ebay auction's but heck, there has not been much on ebay lately.

I think you have to go if you have a passion for collecting and just take it all in and have fun. I will not be able to make Baltimore this year but will be back in action in Chicago in 2011. Hope to see you there.

[Jay Wolt]

W/ the advent of the internet shows are a dying breed.
But the National is as strong as ever, and if you are a card or memorabilia junkie, its the place to be. Over 600 dealer tables!
There are so many cool items that you can view, and many you didn't even know you "needed" till you saw them in person.
And to hook up w/ fellow collectors on both sides of the table is great too!
If you are into autographs there's usually a slew of Hall Of Famers present and even if you don't want to buy an autograph.
You can still check em out signing.
Also there's a variety of other things to do in Baltimore incl. the O's are home vrs the White Sox & Angels.
You'll have a blast, its worth the effort & expense.

[FUBAR]

Tickets to Baltimore- $500
Hotel Room for 3 days- $500

Your first visit to the national- $Priceless!!!

For everything else, there is Ebay!

[morgan118]

Hi,

Just some friendly advice if you do go and are looking to purchase some higher dollar items. Don't be afraid to make offers to dealers who have items you are interested in that seem to be overpriced. Most of them have purchased the items for a fraction of the selling price listed in large group purchases.

I specialize in oddball offerings and some of the prices I see initially are so off base it is laughable so I actually let the dealer know that the item is way overpriced and make an offer. You would be amazed at how far they come down in price especially if they sense you know more about the pricing and market for that item than they do. I can typically get the pricing down 25 - 30 % off the asking price in larger purchases - $500.00 or more. The initial price listed that you see is typically for "retail" customers. Believe me most dealers will have a minimum of 10% to move off that. I have gotten countless deals at up to 40% off the marked price at most Nationals.

I wouldn't miss this one especially in a new city like Baltimore. I am bringing my wife and daughter and making it into a semi vacation. I have a sports collectibles business so at least I can write off some of the expense. Best of luck to you.

[mark evans]

Go to the show. You will feel like a kid in a candy store. Even if you can't justify the trip by a strictly financial analysis, it is well worth it for the excitement of the experience.

[nolemmings]

it is oftentimes a function of what you collect as to what kind of bargains you might find. Oddball stuff can be all over the board. The general prewar stuff--mainstream sets in collector to mid-grade, can vary from table to table but I think sellers recognize they have to be more flexible if you're determined to haggle. Of course, the later in the show schedule the better the chances for a discount (and sometimes at the end of any one day), but much of the stuff has been picked over by then.

Although I agree with the notion of offering less, some sellers are just plain out of their mind high on stuff, to the point where I just walk away. This often happens with either some of the semi-scarce stuff or the regular stuff in high grade. For example, I collect m101-4s and 5s, which are not particularly scarce but with some of the ad backs they aren't garden variety cards either. A couple of years ago, a guy had Stengel in grade VG with an Indianapolis Brewing back (middle of the road back, maybe akin to Sovereign in t206) that was priced at $1750. At that time, that card on its best day should have commanded about $750. I did not want to waste my time asking the seller to take a thousand dollars or more off, and figured he would get insulted and then I would say something I might regret He had other cards marked more than double market value and there were other sellers who priced this way too, at least on the stuff I was buying.

Bottom line and as others said, go there for other reasons, and hope you find a thing or two at about what should be paid or a few centavos less. there will be no steals, however, of that I am pretty confident.

[Jewish-collector]

Phil,

Let me be honest with you. I spend, if not the least amount of money, then one of the least amounts of money on cards & memorabilia of anyone from this forum that goes to the National.

I treat the National weekend as a mini vacation. I save up my money for it. I usually drive and stay at one of the least expensive motels in the suburbs and usually spend about 2 days at the show. I also end up attending a rock concert one of the nights plus I hit the downtown restaurants & clubs in the particular city.

The show has so much material from vintage stuff to the shiny stuff and everything in between. Cards, memorabilia, autographs, equipment, etc,... absolutely everything. It is quite amazing to see.

Probably the most enjoyable part for me of the National experience is meeting other collectors, dealers, auction reps, etc,... It's too bad that Leon isn't having the Net54 dinner because that was honestly the best part of the entire weekend.

Attending the National is the most enjoyable & personal rewarding experiences I have in this hobby.

Alan

[Exhibitman]

It is all about spending the better part of a week talking, walking and breathing cards with people who don't think that is a strange thing to do. Financially, from a card buying perspective, it never makes sense to go there--the costs more than consume any deals you might get. I also like it because it lets me promote my book and web site.

[bbcard1]

I think I have been to three nationals. The one in AC was a bust from my perspective. I was selling a group in Atlanta and felt good about what I accomplished. I was buying in Houston and was pretty happy all in all. Just hasn't been convenient for me the past few years. I am planning on going to Baltimore because it is close. Honestly, the Chantilly show has evolved to the point that it pretty much fills my collecting needs...it's a couple hours closer, you can get in Friday for free, can't beat the site seeing in DC and get a nationals game in with any luck to boot. The two are going to hit pretty close...

My stuff on my shopping list for the National would be to upgrade my Ashland Oil Charlie Slack (Marshall) and a couple of other singles. Haven't had any luck on these recently....

[Rich Klein]

The 2002 (was it 2002?) AC National; may have been the worst National of them all.

Rich

[Jewish-collector]

The 2003 National was in AC. Why was it so bad ? Do you think Baltimore will be better ?

[jerrys]

I had a table at every National through the 2003 in AC, except for the first one in LA in 1980. If you were to poll the long-time table holders I think you would find the worse was the Houston, Texas National. The attendance was very low.

IMO the best Nationals were the 1986 Arlington, Texas, the 1991 LA and a couple of the Chicago shows.

[Rich Klein]

When it came to the National; Houston was not that bad. I think it was because it was so close to Dallas that I knew many dealers/collectors there and thus it was like a big local show to me.

To answer Alan's query; the parking for the AC National was pathetic; as several lots were unavailable. This was beyond anything the National Committee could have anticipated. In addition, flying into AC is a mess. You either had to switch planes or come into Philly or Newark and take a drive either way. The show was not condusive to long distance travel. Plus locals KNEW not to go to AC on the weekends because roads such as the Parkway get backed up and did I mention that it is as least 30 minutes "OFF" the GSP to get to the convention.

I have said this many times; but I think the National should emulate the Comic-Con in at least one way which is to select a location and just keep the National there each year. The location is Chicago and that is central to airports and roads; actually very accessible to local public transportation as well; and the facility is nice as well. Plus all the hotels within walking distance makes it easier as well.

(As an aside; I do think the Baltimore location is great and I hope this is a big success for all involved)

[lharri3600]

i hope it's a success too. also, i hope to see many people that i have sold to and bought from.

[Jewish-collector]

I am really hoping the Baltimore National is successful, but I have my doubts.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by pgellis

I have never been to a National show before and since this year it is in Baltimore I have been thinking about attending for the first time. I was actually about to book a hotel room for the weekend the other night, but decided to "sleep on it".
My thoughts are that I will have to spend about $1000.00 for my wife and I to attend for the weekend. We would probably drive and stay 3 nights at a nice hotel, admission, tix to an Orioles game, food, etc.
I was wondering what other's experiences at the National are with regards to sale prices.
- Do you get any "bargains" at the National?
- Can you get some nice pre-war cards at book value or below?
- Or is everything over-priced?

I know that you will see many rarities in person, but is there value at the show?

The reason I am asking is that if I have to plunk down about $1K before I buy a single card, would it be better just to spend that $1K on a nice card in one of the current or upcoming big auctions? I know that the experience at the National goes beyond just finding bargains and buying cards, but I'm just wondering what others have experienced before at the show.

*

No Hits.

No Runs.

No Errors.

No Experience!

[goudey1933]

hi everyone...new to posting.i live an hour from baltimore so i'll be going to my first national.how negotiable are dealers in prices ?experiences..advice?
thanks,
scott

[Jewish-collector]

Scott,

Glad you will be able to attend. See you in Baltimore !!!

Alan

[David W]

I've been to 2 Nationals, Chicago 08 and Cleveland 09.

As for deals, maybe yes maybe no.

But as others have said, the experience is worth it, you can see thousands of cards and buy what you want and stick it in your pocket that day.

A few tips - I carry a "Man Purse" to put stuff in, like a camera bag.

Peruse the whole thing on day 1, buy on day 2 if you have a limited budget.

Take notes where stuff is, or you might not find it again.

But if your whole motivation for going is to buy cheaper than E Bay you might be disapointed, although my experience in the stuff I collect is that prices are reasonable enough.

[Jewish-collector]

In one of the threads, there were questions about recommendations for hotels near the convention center. I came across a list recently. Hope it helps.

Hilton Hotel - 401 W Pratt St - attached to convention center
Sheraton Inner Harbor - 300 S. Charles St - attached to convention center
Marriott Camden Yards - 110 S Eutaw St - one block from convention center
Holiday Inn Inner Harbor - 301 W Lombard St - one block to convention center
Days Inn Inner Harbor - 100 Hopkins Pl -one block from convention center
Renaissance Harborplace - 202 E Pratt St - two blocks from convention center
Quality Inn Downtown - 110 St Paul St - five blocks from convention center
Holiday Inn Express - 1701 Russell St -2 miles from convention center(shuttle)
Embassy Suites BWI Airport - 1300 Concourse Dr - 8 miles (airport light rail)

[Clark7781]

Originally Posted by David W

A few tips - I carry a "Man Purse" to put stuff in, like a camera bag.

OK, can't resist! What movie?

"It's not a man purse, it's a satchel. Indiana Jones wore a satchel."

[manningmurphyfan]

Originally Posted by Clark7781

OK, can't resist! What movie?

"It's not a man purse, it's a satchel. Indiana Jones wore a satchel."

Hangover.

[4815162342]

How much does PSA and SGC charge to grade or reholder cards at the National?

[cwazzy]

This will be my first Nationals experiene and I can't wait! I won't have much money to spend once I get there but I really don't care if I don't buy a thing. As long as I get to meet some new people with similar interests and see amazing cards that I would normally never get a chance to see in person I'll be happy. Plus this will be my first guy's weekend in 7+ years. I'm sure I'll miss my wife and kids while I'm gone but it will be nice to have some "me time".

[4815162342]

Me too Chris!

[Jewish-collector]

Chris,

I go to the National every year and never have much money to spend, either. However, the most personally rewarding experience of the show is meeting other collectors. Hope to see you there !!!

Alan

[Theoldprofessor]

My son and I attended Nationals regularly for more than a decade -- he was about ten when we started. Each year we took about $1k, but spent none of it the first day. Instead we wandered up an down the rows, making notes of who had what, and what might be needed to get it from him.

We stayed about four days each in Cleveland, St. Louis, Houston, Atlanta, Anaheim, Chicago. What did he get? A lot of T206s, some T205s, and a practical lesson in the old saying "It's worth what you can get for it." What did I get? Enough fun, enough laughs, enough good memories to last a lifetime.

He's off on his own now, and I'm collecting as much for him as for me.

If you have a kid, take him or her along. You'll never regret it. And you'll collect lots more than cardboard.

[cwazzy]

Originally Posted by Theoldprofessor

If you have a kid, take him or her along. You'll never regret it. And you'll collect lots more than cardboard.

I fully intend to take my sons along with me eventually. Just not this year. My oldest will be 4 by the time Nationals roles around and my youngest will be 1. I would not have any fun running after them the entire time. I figure when they hit 7 & 10 I'll take them along with me. And I'm REALLY excited about that.

[Abravefan11]

I have never been to a National and have two young sons that aren't ready for one yet. I have however worked out the details with my wife and we will be coming to Baltimore. She's agreed to the trip and the O's game, just not the show. That's good enough for me.

I look forward to the opportunity to meet a lot of the board members.

[Jewish-collector]

Tim,
You will love the National !!! See you in Baltimore.
Alan

[4815162342]

My wife refused to go, so I convinced a buddy to come along.

[ChrisStufflestreet]

I'm still on the fence about whether I'll be able to get to Baltimore. I want to (and it's a straight shot up I-95 for me), but it might not be an option for me financially.

I have been to several in Cleveland and Chicago. Each time, I've made it a family trip and my daughter has been treated very well. What's funny...as an 11 year-old kid I had a totally different treatment by card sellers than what my little girl has received. Back then, dealers really seemed to want kids to just stay away, because the parents were the ones holding the cash. Now, people enjoy seeing kids come in with their parents, a common practice 25 years ago.

Here we on on the National floor last year:



And here she is with Dolly Konwinski, who played in the AAGBPL from '49-'52 and appeared during the "old-timers" game scene and HOF scene in A League of Their Own, one of her favorite movies.



She had a blast last year. At one point, a gentleman stopped by and asked if he could give my daughter some tickets for free autographs. I bought a cheap baseball, and she enjoyed meeting the retired stars. At the end of the show, I stopped by at the end of Bob Feller's appearance. I didn't buy an autograph ticket, but as a fellow veteran, I just wanted to let him know how much I appreciate the way he dropped his glove and joined the Navy as soon as he could when he heard about Pearl Harbor. He looked over to my little girl and said, "Would you like me to sign that ball, sweetheart?" All he asked was to see her smile. And she did.



Rich Klein and I talked about this at the show last year and I'll say it again here...but I really like the way some sellers are with kids. I think a lot really understand the effect of getting them acclimated to the hobby, because we need the new blood to survive.

Long ramble over...but I'd absolutely recommend visiting the National, even if it's only to actually meet some of the people you've known through avatars and nicknames in hobby forums or as eBay sellers.

[danc]

The National is all about the experience, seeing things in person, gazing upon display cases of items that will be featured in an upcoming catalog, meeting new people, seeing really nice cards...that are at eBay Store prices. You will do as I do, find yourself purchasing something at a higher price just so you can leave the experience with something.

I often find sticker shock when I see a nice card, make the dealer open the case, flip it over, to reveal an orange sticker (that I know will be a pain to get off, leaving residue) and a price which is 300% over what you should pay for something, especially if you would have stayed home and had that $1000 to have fun with.

The most rewarding thing about going to the show is just being around people who have the same passion as you, who you may only recognize through handles and when you enter the premise, you will see lines and lines of tables that will take you two good full days to look at all the stuff. I hope Baltimore is a success, but like some above, have my doubts.

DanC