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  #1  
Old 03-31-2013, 12:18 PM
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Default The Further Decline of Brick & Mortar...

So I am one of those who quit in the early 90's and returned recently to vintage set collecting like many here, and like many here, am quite obsessed with the hobby. No doubt it has changed immensly since 1990, I think I read somewhere there was 10,000 shops in America, where there is now around 200, and most of these are dominated by Magic and stuff I wouldn't use as kinder to start a camp fire...but I digress...

Here in Western Washington we have 3 shops I would consider to having a decent selection of vintage. Not the occaisional 72 In Action Card, but notebooks of commons and a smattering of stars. Looking at The Stache's spreadsheet on another post where he ranks prospects, well, I keep sheets on my set endeavors. I track EVERYTHING, and before I buy ANYTHING, I know exactly what's good and whats bad, by exact percentage and penny. With that said, I will pay a little more for that personal touch, and its fun to have the cards instantly. I also feel good about supporting the locals. I do realize shops have costs; labor, rent, overhead in general, but my percentages are off online retail, and I know shops aren't paying that, so for my figures I calculate their price based on the retail price I can pay online. You could probably double or more the percentage for their profit, but that isn't for me to figure. I hope everyone makes money, I just want to pay market price. For example -

Shop 1 - (No names) In the last 5 years I have been in the shop 3 times, commons are 38% more than average ebay/online prices, semi-stars are 42% higher, and full on HOFers are 82% higher. You could take a picture of his vintage counters, and two years later be assured they are still there. Needless to say I will not darken it's doors. Not only that, the guy is like Comic Book guy on the Simpsons, and his wife who is equally as rude runs the shop most of the time. No Thanks.

Shop 2 - I spend a lot of money here. Shop keep is super nice family guy. Commons are 12% higher, semi-stars are -22% (GREAT DEALS), and star cards are 14% higher. The better part is he is a TOUGH grader and his view of "off grade" starts at 10% of Becket, significantly lower than ebay/online. My percentage sheet has it at -62%. Only problem, they are over an hour away, so I get there when I get there, and he has a huge client list. The shop buys daily, and he turns his inventory just as fast. This of course is a great example of a successful brick and mortar, and I know he sells online as well and has adapted to the hobby. I believe he has been in business since 1988, and don't see him going anywhere. He is such a nice guy in fact, I have spent up to 100% over ebay/online at times just to support him. In return, I have received the opposite in deals where I am shocked. Love it.


Shop 3...and the reason for the post. Great selection of commons (better selection than Shop 2), decent amount of semi-stars, and a relatively poor selection of stars. He has recently moved a mile down the street for a larger shop. Pre-move, commons were 18% higher, and enough to where I enjoyed paying a little extra to support the shop 20 minutes from the house. Semi-stars were 39% more, so only occaisionally, mostly impulse (something I try not to do), and stars are ridiculous, 112% more. I never bought stars there, and the 112% is an average (yes, I take sample notes to track). Some are as high as 260% higher and some don't even register. I don't track graded cards...if I did, it would be laughable here.

SINCE the move, there has been a sharp increase in prices. The last three visits I picked up a few commons and the price went to 38% more, teetering on the edge of support. Yesterday my 8 year old son wanted to get a Russel Wilson Colorado Rocky Bowman card, and it was just me and him for the day (I have 1 son, and 3 daughters, so we have to escape some times! haha) and he loves going to "the card shop". I went through his 64 commons, after my son was able to track down the Wilson to his excitement, and I had what I knew I could get online for $92.50. I was hoping for him to say $125, which was around what I expected based on past dealings and my spreadsheet (shops get real predictable if you track it, I know, I am a nerd). Instead, he comes back with $180. I was shocked, not even close. Not to offend him, and to not create a riff with my son there I shoot back that I can pay $140. Had he took that, it would have been my last transaction, as that is completely out of line, and while I enjoy the experience of coming to a shop, that is too much. He comes back with an offer of $175, and an explanation of how Becket this, and Becket that, and he can get more to those who buy just 1 or 2. I get all that, but he also fails to realize I track his inventory and he has had the same notebook of 64 commons for 5 years, lol. I politely bow out of the negotiation, and explain I don't mind paying more in person than online, but I can't pay literally TWICE as much. I buy the Wilson for $6 (which I can get online for $3.50) and leave. I am not cheap either, far from it, and when I got home I spent exactly $92.50 shipped and got the same cards in better shape. Last year I spent $2,136 at his shop, and I also represent 3 other set collectors who already stopped going there since he moved who spent similar (they use my figures as well). I know I am small potatoes compared to all his Magic customers, BUT, I represent a huge percentage of his vintage base, who he has now sadly alienated.



Cliff notes....it is truly sad as a vintage collector most of my transactions are online. Shop 2 has it figured out, and I guarantee his volume is ten times the other two shops, and I know his clientale is loyal and huge. The other two shops are joked about often when I talk to other local collectors. I just LOVE going into a card shop, I love it. When I was a little kid it was magical. This experience is slowly going away for my son. Looks like I will be taking more trips to Shop 2...and hope it never changes there. The day when 100% of my transactions are online would be a sad day indeed. Sorry about the ramble...yesterday was depressing.
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Last edited by Harliduck; 03-31-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2013, 12:55 PM
Bestdj777 Bestdj777 is offline
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The thing I don't get about brick and mortar stores is the owners with nasty attitudes. I remember being eight and spotting what I thought was a Nolan Ryan rookie. I approached the dealer about it and learned that it was actually one of those porcelian reprints. When I thanked him and walked away I remember him calling me cheap because I didn't want to spend 30 dollars on a reprint. It left me with such a negative taste in my mouth.

Twenty years later, I relocate to a new city and am so excited that I have a card shop two blocks from my house. The guy has a decent vintage selection. Many commons and a handful of stars. Nothing I need for my collection so nothing I'd buy. I end up shopping there maybe ten to twenty times for top loaders for my cards anyway. I finally meet the owner on one of my visits, and the guy makes a nasty comment to me in the thirty seconds we spoke. I just don't get it. It's not like people are lining up to purchase stuff at his place. I think there has maybe been one or two customers there each time I visited. You'd think he'd be a little nicer.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:05 PM
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Excellent post, wonder how many of us bowed out early 90s to return in the last few years, thought I was but a few.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:52 PM
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"You could take a picture of his vintage counters, and two years later be assured they are still there."

This statement says it all to me. A card shop is a business, so they have to move inventory to garner revenue. Problem is, many (most?) of these proprietors treat their inventory the way we collectors do. They see such a far reaching perceived value in their cards and not what is a reasonable, true value...and therefore the cards sit there way overpriced, forlorn and forgotten.

And when it comes to how these folks treat their customers, you nailed it. If someone treats me rudely in any way, it's see ya later, never to return. Yesterday I was in a shop with a terrifically nice, engaging owner who was a ray of sunshine, asking my girlfriend about her Mini Cooper and just being exceptionally friendly. Unfortunately, he didn't have but a small box of vintage cards (nothing that I could use), but his attitude made it perfectly clear. If I want to buy newer cards, undoubtedly I'll make tracks for his place.
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:34 PM
KCRfan1 KCRfan1 is offline
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I too returned to the hobby a couple of years ago. I had a favorite card shop and could find very nice cards of any decade. He also had cool unique sports items too, one of which comes to mind was a Trans-O-Gram set of the players. Wife and I moved to SoCal and ten years later we are back in KC only for me to find my beloved shop's inventory was sold and the guy retired. Sadly, I do not have much in the area to choose from and from what I HAVE found in the local shops I am happy to shop online.

I am curious if any of you think our card hobby ( and one of my life's pleasures ) is slowly dying. I am near 50, and I do not find much interest in baseball cards from kids. I realize there are too many card companies and the cards are too much in price. Society makes it hard for a kid to be a kid, and EVERYONE is so busy with life. Video games, Social Media, ect all take time and money. I find it sad that the fun I had as a kid, and now as an adult, appears to be enjoyed only by my generation or older. Am I wrong in my accessment? Perhaps it's just the ebb and flow of the tide and the circle of life. I love going to the mail box and opening my cards just like I used to love opening a wax pack when I was 10 years old. This is such a great memory and feeling to have and I feel younger generations have / are missing out.

I'm going to play Sinatra on my Hi-Fi now.......
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:55 PM
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John O,
great storys......... so very true...and here on east coast..you could write the same thing
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimm View Post
Excellent post, wonder how many of us bowed out early 90s to return in the last few years, thought I was but a few.
I was definitely one. I got tired of the mass produced crap that was all over the hobby. I returned two years ago, and found that at least there were some product lines I liked (I am a huge fan of the Bowman Chrome prospect autographs, as John referenced). And for the last year and a half, I have purchased those heavily, trying to get "caught up" on the years I'd missed.

But it's still vintage that tugs at my heart strings, and I am now getting to the point where I can start buying the cards I want. I only wish I'd started about a year earlier, because when I was working, I was making more than twice what I am now on disability, and I could have bought anything I wanted. Now, I have to pick and choose, and build my collection slowly.

But I'm in no rush, really. I'm going to enjoy this. There's something about getting one or two great cards a month, and really cherishing them.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:44 PM
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Oh, and John, I have a lcs here in Grapevine that I really like. SMP sports cards. The owner is knowledgeable and friendly. Unfortunately, it's been about 14 months since I've been able to drop bye after my knee surgery.

I will go there and buy boxes, and the occasional single. And he appreciates when I frequent his shop. That creates customer loyalty in a big way.
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCRfan1 View Post
I'm going to play Sinatra on my Hi-Fi now.......
great taste in music!!!!
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Old 03-31-2013, 06:58 PM
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Nice post and thread John. I took the liberty of moving it to the forum front page so more folks could see it. We have one decent card shop within an hour of where I live but even he has limited vintage. I haven't been there in probably a half a year or more. The internet, for all it's good and bad, casts a wide net.
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:18 PM
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Pet peeve of mine (and most everyone I imagine) is walking into a store looking around for several minutes, all the while the shop worker (or owner) has their head buried in a cell phone, no look up, no nod hello, nothing. Good gosh what a way to greet the public!!
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Old 03-31-2013, 07:40 PM
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the one nearest us does not have much in vintage but he is a decent enough person and there is another store Nick's at Campbell and Coit who usually has a nice selection of older singles (usually a tad off condition) at ebay competitive prices. He even occassionally has some pre-war as well

Rich
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:03 PM
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I can tell you that the "old card shop" has since faded, however, there are many of us (me included) who miss the days of working around the house & neighborhood to earn extra money to get cash to go to the local card shop and purchase packs or singles. I miss those days like many of us do. So...I am proud to announce that I am opening my own card shop / auction house in mid-April. We will be located in a historic village of Glendale, OH and our name is Queen City Sports Cards (Cincinnati is called the Queen City). We have an old fashioned approach and will even have free coffee on us to talk shop.

Times have changed and we will be current with the times with monthly auctions, but we will still have that old fashioned feel and experience. I hope Leon is OK with with me posting this (not a free plug as I want to advertise here and we have discussed this), but it has been a lifetime endeavor to put all of this together. Plus, I have a 4 year old son and he will be able to grow into the hobby with dear old dad...I can't think of a better experience than that...

We are going to have some fun on Tuesday as we will be hosting Chris Heisey of the Cincinnati Reds with more current and former players to visit in the near future.

I hope I get to work / deal with many of you on the board (and thank you to those I have...you know who you are).

I look forward to providing a great experience and you will never get any "gruff" from me if you stop by.

Thanks for all of the knowledge and participation on this forum...I enjoy reading through the post every day.

Happy Collecting!
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:07 PM
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Good luck with your store Hank!
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:10 PM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
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Has there ever been a primarily vintage card shop?
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:41 PM
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Yes, 90% of store owners will overcharge for vintage. I find that the only way to get a good price is to cherry-pick commons and pay "book price" which in some cases is ok. I did recently pay decent coin for a '57 ungraded that would have been very hard to buy online....But most run of the mill off-centered stars/rc's are way overpriced....Also, sometimes Beckett is wrong in the other direction, i.e. underpriced. Would gladly pay for '57 Lucky Penny cards at their prices. Anyway, the card I bought for $100, would not have bought the same card online:

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Old 03-31-2013, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orioles1954 View Post
Has there ever been a primarily vintage card shop?
I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:08 PM
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I have one shop in the town I live in. Next one is 160 miles away. The guy that runs it is friendly enough but if you don't know what things are worth he has no problem sticking it to you. He never really got to me but I have seen him way over sell things to other people. The vintage stuff he has is way over priced so I don't buy many cards there. I believe they are really just his collection that he puts out for show with the old saying that everything is for sale for the right price. If I had a store I could see doing that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:12 PM
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In many ways ebay has been a blessing and curse. It is nice logging on and being able to buy pretty much any card you want (it may take a few months to find it listed, but eventually it's going to be there). I grew up in Minneapolis and once a year there was the Thunderbird show (EVERYBODY who was anybody in the 90's knows about the T-bird show). At any rate, I remember looking forward to that show for months because it was the one place you could find just about anything you wanted.

Now, log on to ebay and just buy it. I don't know... I just think part of the fun died when ebay caught on.

I get that there are far less kids collecting now. But the future isn't completely bleak. I turned 30 a week ago, I am approaching 50/524 on the monster.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:28 PM
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To answer my own question (bad form, I know)....I've been in the hobby since 1984 when I was 8 years old. First card shop visited was Dixies Card Shop in Williamsport, PA. Second card shop was the legendary Den's Collectors Den in Laurel, MD. I've been to hundreds of shops over the decades since and I've NEVER seen one that depends on vintage card sales as its main source of revenue. It's has always been packs, boxes and singles of the day, and even supplies before vintage. House of Cards in Silver Spring, Maryland has a large supply of vintage singles and out of every 100 customers, maybe 10% purchase pre-1960s cards.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball View Post

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?
I think this post is spot on, and I have had many of the same thoughts in recent years. I just turned 40, and I wonder how much the lack of interest among younger people is the perception that it is a shady hobby. Obviously, I am not painting everyone with the same brush and there are many wonderful and ethical collectors and dealers out there.

But it does seem at times like everywhere you turn, someone is trying to perpetrate a scam or rip buyers off.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:23 AM
Matthew H Matthew H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanman7baseball View Post
I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?


There have been many threads on this subject. In my opinion, there are many collectors in that age group partially because it's more likely an age group that could afford to spend what it takes. I'm 32 years old and would have been collecting much much longer if I could have. I used to go to card shows with my brothers and drool all over the showcases... Cards were so beautiful in their late 80s-raw glory

Most well-to-do adults collect stuff. Maybe not BB cards, but something... BB cards are americana and will always be collected IMO. So in 40-50 years, you will probably be selling to guys in the 45-55 age group, just like how it is now.


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Old 04-01-2013, 01:34 AM
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All I know is when I was young I was sold a Mickey Mantle baseball. Turned out fake and turned me off from collecting for a long time. Ten years later I just had to start collecting again. And yet again, I ended up buying another fake autograph. This time it happened to be Jackie Robinson. Talked to a dealer for hours at the card show. Trusted him enough to buy an auto without a COA. Obviously I recognize my ignorance and lack of knowledge for being the sole reason I ended up buying it, but how is someone new to the hobby going to handle that? I don't collect autographs anymore because of that incident... I went to a card show and thought he was a trusted dealer. Honestly, I believe people most people my age are too lazy to look up and learn the overwhelming information needed to become a knowledgeable collector. Hence, why they don't care to collect.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:41 AM
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There have been many threads on this subject. In my opinion, there are many collectors in that age group partially because it's more likely an age group that could afford to spend what it takes. I'm 32 years old and would have been collecting much much longer if I could have. I used to go to card shows with my brothers and drool all over the showcases... Cards were so beautiful in their late 80s-raw glory

Most well-to-do adults collect stuff. Maybe not BB cards, but something... BB cards are americana and will always be collected IMO. So in 40-50 years, you will probably be selling to guys in the 45-55 age group, just like how it is now.


-
Good point. I know to collect these cards you need money. My age = not that much money yet. I will point out though that the collectors like yourself who drool over these cards when they were young, do not exist in nearly the amount they used to. Rarely do I see kids drooling over vintage cards at card shows. I was usually the only one back 10 years ago when I'd go to semi-annual Hollywood Park Casino card show. I'm just saying people in the 45-55 year old age group used to dream about having these cards as a kid so now that they can afford them they are buying them. Less kids drooling today means less older men buying tomorrow.

All in all, I'm not saying that the hobby will die but in my opinion the population of dedicated vintage collectors will decline dramatically. But for card prices they will surely rise... I hope.

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Old 04-01-2013, 01:57 AM
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Good point. I know to collect these cards you need money. My age = not that much money yet. I will point out though that the collectors like yourself who drool over these cards when they were young, do not exist in nearly the amount they used to. Rarely do I see kids drooling over vintage cards at card shows. I was usually the only one back 10 years ago when I'd go to semi-annual Hollywood Park Casino card show. I'm just saying people in the 45-55 year old age group used to dream about having these cards as a kid so now that they can afford them they are buying them. Less kids drooling today means less older men buying tomorrow.

All in all, I'm not saying that the hobby will die but in my opinion the population of dedicated vintage collectors will decline dramatically. But for card prices they will surely rise... I hope.

They're not drooling on the vintage because of all the shiny foil bat chip 1/1s and jersey swatches. But which ones do they covet the most? Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. Eventually they are going to grow up and want career contemporary cards of these players. My opinion.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:03 AM
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They're not drooling on the vintage because of all the shiny foil bat chip 1/1s and jersey swatches. But which ones do they covet the most? Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, etc. Eventually they are going to grow up and want career contemporary cards of these players. My opinion.
Touché. Once again, good point! For some reason I forgot the reason why I even knew anything about Pre-war players and it was because of SP Legendary Cuts. Bought so many boxes that I finally learned to recognize and tell you the significance of most Hall of Famers. But I will add the only reason I was privileged enough to buy these cards was because my grandpa funded my addiction...

But yes, point taken. The only reason I bought the new stuff when I was young was because it was the only way I could get a Mickey Mantle for under $20.

Last edited by Tanman7baseball; 04-01-2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:54 AM
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I remember a primarily vintage shop near Orange County, CA back about 10 years ago. It closed down (don't remember when) but it only carried extremely high-end cards and memorabilia. Literally I can only remember things being in the thousands... Since I was only 12 years old I obviously couldn't afford anything. I'm assuming it closed down because it just turned into a museum instead of a card shop. Sadly, I feel most shops are like this.

I have been thinking about our hobby a lot lately. I am in my early 20s and rarely do I find a vintage collector that is my age. Now this makes me think...what is the average age for a vintage baseball card collector? 45-55 years old or so?

I collect cards, because I love baseball. I have yet to sell anything I own, but I know there will come a time when I will. My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?
I think Leon did a poll of the average age of collectors on the board, maybe he can pull it up. But, as far as the card prices plunging; I think this is where you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing- how much your cards may be worth in the future, or, how much you enjoy collecting regardless of what happens down the road? I'm sure we all hope our cards will retain at least what we put into them-but, you have to accept the fact that anything can happen. 20 years from now that $1,000.00 card may be worth $100.00,,,,,or that $1,000.00 card may be worth $2,000.00. I just enjoy trying to put together the set because it's thrilling to me, and whatever happens in the future happens. It's a little easier if you don't look at the cards as an investment

As far as the card shops, I've had mixed luck locally. A few years ago, the oldest cards you would see would be '50's cards. Now, they are carrying some pre war cards. I know one of the shop owners told me he has to sell on ebay to stay afloat (this was a few years ago). I would love to see a card shop 100% devoted to pre war cards !!! That would be awesome.

Sincerely, Clayton

Last edited by teetwoohsix; 04-01-2013 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:03 AM
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My question is, what is going to happen to the card market when the average 45-55 year old "kicks the bucket"? Will card prices plunge? I know about 2 other people who enjoy collecting vintage baseball cards that are my age. I am finishing up college here at Oklahoma State University and have talked to hundreds of people about the baseball card world. No interest. The last 6 months I have tried to help a man start up a local card shop. Within that 6 month span I did not meet one person my age who collected baseball cards (modern or vintage).

My ultimate question is who will I sell to in 40 or 50 years?
I think that overall the demand will fall as people forget who the more obscure players were. However, the big names will always draw a big dollar.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:39 AM
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I think this post is spot on, and I have had many of the same thoughts in recent years. I just turned 40, and I wonder how much the lack of interest among younger people is the perception that it is a shady hobby. Obviously, I am not painting everyone with the same brush and there are many wonderful and ethical collectors and dealers out there.

But it does seem at times like everywhere you turn, someone is trying to perpetrate a scam or rip buyers off.
I'm 41 and your post resonates with me. While third-party-grading has its limitations, on some level that is what gave me the confidence to re-enter this hobby (especially for online transactions). I'm not sure that I ever had a good experience at a card shop. I grew up in south St. Louis and I remember card shops in the 80's-90's having no use for kid's small change. The operators were almost always surly a-holes. I do not bemoan their demise. I do love card shows. Between shows, web sites like this, and web auctions, I'm not sure I need anything else.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:39 AM
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Magic and the other incarnations of gaming cards help keep my 3 shops I haunt open so I can find the occasional gem. Kids love that stuff, not sure they'd be open without 'em...:what:
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:31 AM
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Nice post and thread John. I took the liberty of moving it to the forum front page so more folks could see it. We have one decent card shop within an hour of where I live but even he has limited vintage. I haven't been there in probably a half a year or more. The internet, for all it's good and bad, casts a wide net.
If you don't mind me asking, is Nick's your shop of choice in the Dallas area?
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:33 AM
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you might see somewhat of a crash, but all that means is lower prices for new collectors or people who are already collecting, one mans loss is another mans gain.

if prices come down enough, more might enter a hobby which for a lot of people right now seems out of their pocketbook range. but there will be no time in the future when a nice clean sandy koufax rookie card will be worth nothing, or 20 dollars. its always going to be worth a nice amount, the question is just how nice compared to the past?

we have had card booms before and resurgences, but a card plunge is seen by many as a market correction.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:37 AM
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If you don't mind me asking, is Nick's your shop of choice in the Dallas area?
Yes,That is the only one I am familiar with since the JW's? over in Addison closed (or does something different now)....I think Rich knows of another small one in Frisco that he used to do a little work at. But Nick's is the only one I know of now.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:23 AM
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There used to be a shop off of South Cooper in Arlington, Texas that I remember being pretty good.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:18 AM
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Default There are stores near where Leon and myself live

or within a half hour

One is Triple Cards in Plano (15th and Ave K) east of Central (75) -- not much pre-1980 in the store and he definately stays in business with new boxes, supplies etc.

Nicks is at Coit and Campbell in Richardson and that is closer to an old school store with more older cards where clients can actually look at those cards.

Both owners are good people and while they make a profit, neither are outrageous on their prices

Regards
Rich
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:06 PM
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I think Leon did a poll of the average age of collectors on the board, maybe he can pull it up. But, as far as the card prices plunging; I think this is where you have to ask yourself what is the most important thing- how much your cards may be worth in the future, or, how much you enjoy collecting regardless of what happens down the road? I'm sure we all hope our cards will retain at least what we put into them-but, you have to accept the fact that anything can happen. 20 years from now that $1,000.00 card may be worth $100.00,,,,,or that $1,000.00 card may be worth $2,000.00. I just enjoy trying to put together the set because it's thrilling to me, and whatever happens in the future happens. It's a little easier if you don't look at the cards as an investment

Sincerely, Clayton
I agree with you. I have never had any desire to sell. I am very passionate about collecting baseball cards and I love the history. I will say that since I have joined Net 54 I think I might start liquidating my 50s and 60s to start buying pre-war . I know that the big names will hold value, but to justify spending thousands of dollars on cards instead of putting into the stock market I like to think that if I have potential increased value in these cards.

Lastly, if there is ever a time in my life where I am in dire need of money I will sell my car and everything else I have before my cards...

Sorry guys for straying off the topic of B&M. But if anyone is in Oklahoma and you are itching to go to a card shop I would reccomend Al's Sports Cards. One small showcase filled with vintage but he will occasionally get in pre-war. Prices are usually high, but occasionally you will find some reasonable deals. He treats his customers with respect and will reward his loyal customers with better pricing. Probably why he is basically the only card shop left in Oklahoma...
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:34 PM
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This is a different era; a shop owner cannot get away with ridiculous pricing. Information is easily found and prices are readily analyzed. I was at a show last year and had a potential buyer scoping out prices on his iphone to figure out what to buy from my table. A dealer cannot just slap a ridiculous tag on everything [especially mainstream cards] and hope that ignorance prevails.

The other thing I cannot understand is the unprofessional, short-sighted attitude. It just blows my mind how parochial the thinking can be. There is a local shop I go to for supplies and occasionally for cards [usually just a pack rip]. I and a couple of other guys are running a local card show in May [you've seen our banners here...I hope]. We are trying to revive face to face collecting, looking at starting a card collectors club for locals, and generally trying to revitalize the hobby as a personal and social thing. We are offering card shops cooperative advertising: carry our flyers for the show and we will put out your flyers for the store at our show. No costs involved, just an effort to build community. I explain all of that to the shop owner and he says no to the offer. Nevermind that the collecting base has declined markedly over the last 20 years and that part of it may be the loss of personal relationship-based hobby events, and that we are looking to get people involved locally and off their computers.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:41 PM
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The other thing I cannot understand is the unprofessional, short-sighted attitude. It just blows my mind how parochial the thinking can be. There is a local shop I go to for supplies and occasionally for cards [usually just a pack rip]. I and a couple of other guys are running a local card show in May [you've seen our banners here...I hope]. We are trying to revive face to face collecting, looking at starting a card collectors club for locals, and generally trying to revitalize the hobby as a personal and social thing. We are offering card shops cooperative advertising: carry our flyers for the show and we will put out your flyers for the store at our show. No costs involved, just an effort to build community. I explain all of that to the shop owner and he says no to the offer. Nevermind that the collecting base has declined markedly over the last 20 years and that part of it may be the loss of personal relationship-based hobby events, and that we are looking to get people involved locally and off their computers.
Adam,

I totally understand what you are saying here regarding the short-sighted attitude. In the past (pre-internet days) it may have made some sense for a store owner to view themselves as "the only game in town", but these days their "town" has grown quite a bit larger, essentially world-wide. People don't even have to LOOK in the B&M store anymore, let alone wonder/worry if they will even find what they are looking for.

This is very similar to the idea of "trading areas", either at shows or at B&M stores (another thread I just started). Something oddly enough, which stores that deal in Magic and other gaming cards promote (or at least, don't prohibit) with seemingly large success during their gaming nights.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:32 PM
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The closest store to me has nice vintage selection but ridiculously over- priced and hates to haggle, I honestly don't know how he stays in business.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:52 PM
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In Red Bank NJ, there is still a baseball card store with incredible vintage stock from T201's cards to 1970s.. but of course the prices are sky high..., but its there..and he has been there forever..so he must be making money
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:02 PM
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I think that overall the demand will fall as people forget who the more obscure players were. However, the big names will always draw a big dollar.
I agree with this 100%. Collector's will always be interest in the big names/big cards. As far as high grade commons go... that is just throwing money away. Set collecting is a dying passion.

It is easy to gripe about card shops/owners but what about sellers at card shows. I attended my first card show in nearly two decades. Flew to Chicago for the Sun Times show. I found the cards I was looking for to have an asking price of 2 to 3 times current ebay auction prices.

Found the show to be nothing more than a live version of the overpriced BINs on ebay. I didn't buy anything and left after an hour. Needless to say I have no intention of ever going back to another show. What really irks me is passing on a few cards on ebay thinking I would spend money at the Sun Times show. After all, should be a better selection at the show. At that point I realized if the hobby was still card shops and shows I would not have re-entered it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 03:51 PM
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I am 65 years young and start collecting cards when there were penny packs and nickel packs had 6 cards. I would open the packs and move that top card very slowly to first view the team logo because that Yankee loge may be Mantle, or Red Sox could be Williams. However, my collection was thrown out by my parents while I was in the military, thousands of cards were gone.
I started collecting again when I viewed my first baseball card show in 1984, and made every garage sale and bought every collection I could until the 1990s when like everyone else, was turned off by the mass production.
I again have the feeling of collecting again since I found this site, it was like going to my first card show again. Only a member for several months, I have not made a decision of picking up where I left off or go vintage, but am learning a lot just by reading these threads everyday.
My point to this story, I believe the hobby will stay strong and the youth will mature and want to grab a piece of their past. Historical artifacts, like baseball cards, will always be that piece of their history, and draw them into the hobby. Many collectors do not even start until later in life, and so will they.
By the way, does anyone have any unopened penny packs? That's a stretch, but if there is any around, I am sure it would be here.

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Old 04-01-2013, 06:43 PM
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There was a card shop in the next city over that was open when I was a kid. I remember going there many times when I was 8-11 and the owner always treated me and any other kids as a nuisance/waste of time. I finally quit going to the shop and it closed eventually. Fast forward 15 years and I was living in that city and a card shop had opened. I had not collected cards in years but decided to go in and bought a few things. i would go in there 1-2 times a month and probably spend $50.00 a month or so. This went on for probably close to a year. I went in there for what turned out to be the last time and overheard another customer say the owner's first name. I had somehow never learned the owner's name. Anyway, it was the same name of the store that I went to as a kid. I asked the guy if the owner was the same one that had a shop in the late 1980 and early 1990s. He said it was. I remembered how the owner treated me as a kid and I walked out and have never returned. Jerk.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:03 PM
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This is what makes card shops fun as a parent with kids (My Son on the left and step-daughter on the right). Chris Heisey of the Reds stopped by the shop today. Chris was very nice!
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:30 PM
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That's so cool Hank, and to have the kids there enjoying it too.....you will have lasting, fond memories and so will they.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:37 PM
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In Red Bank NJ, there is still a baseball card store with incredible vintage stock from T201's cards to 1970s.. but of course the prices are sky high..., but its there..and he has been there forever..so he must be making money
I was wondering if Monmouth was still there. The guys who run it are getting up there but the inventory there is amazing. I did get a decent E98 Bridwell There a few years ago for a reasonable price.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:30 AM
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That's so cool Hank, and to have the kids there enjoying it too.....you will have lasting, fond memories and so will they.
+1

Awesome Hank!! Sounds like it was a great time. I hope your shop is a success and wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely, Clayton
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:01 PM
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I briefly visited a local hobby shop yesterday while waiting for a prescription at the pharmacy next door. It recently opening in a shopping center very close to my house so I wanted to see what they carried. The experience reminded me of this thread and, essentially, embodied all the stated reasons above why these stores struggle to survive.

This was a general hobby store that sold only new cards, no vintage. But I am also fascinated by and respect other hobbies like model railroads so looked around. Only one other person in the store besides me. It was a nice store. Small but clean. I had not intended to buy any cards because I don't really collect new stuff, but out of courtesy I felt like I should buy a few packs rather than leave without spending anything. So I picked up two packs of modern stuff and went to check out.

I got the disdainful look for only buying two packs. If that was it then no biggie. Then I was told "for an order this small it will be cash only." I had not intended to use a card but I was still caught off guard by that. I understand the fees but that is the cost of doing business. There's no cash register. Just one of those ledgers that takes the guy 2 minutes to fill out by hand and then he uses the handheld calculator to tell me it is $5.28. I hand him a $20.

There is disgust on his face that I would try to pay for something so small with a $20 bill. He asks if I have anything smaller or a $1. No I don't. Only twenties and a five. He asks the other customer if he has any change! The other customer pulls out a $1 and gives it to the owner who then gives me $15 in change. Then he thanks the other customer for "helping this guy out" as if I am a peddler looking for hand-outs.

This was at 5:30pm...a full 7 hours after opening and you don't have change for a $20 bill after insisting the customer pay in cash? On top of that, the store was closing at 6! How can you close at 6pm and expect to make money? Is it inconceivable that people might want to go to a store after 6pm to spend the money they make while working during the day?

All this aside, virtually every time I go to a store I get that sense that I am doing something wrong or being watched. I remember the shame I felt as a kid when a store owner would say something dismissive. I loved going but my enduring memories now are of feeling empty after leaving the stores like I was out of my league as a kid. I did not feel welcomed.

Now I am an adult with extra money to spend and two young boys who will be getting into hobbies soon enough. But yet I still feel like these stores find ways to drive us away rather than cultivate the hobby. My anecdote may seem petty but I felt a strong desire to get out of that store and never come back as I left. I love the idea of going to hobby/card stores; generally hate the experience even as an adult.

By the way, the 2014 Topps pack I bought had a vintage insert in it...first one I have ever found in a pack. So there...
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:21 PM
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or within a half hour

One is Triple Cards in Plano (15th and Ave K) east of Central (75) -- not much pre-1980 in the store and he definately stays in business with new boxes, supplies etc.

Nicks is at Coit and Campbell in Richardson and that is closer to an old school store with more older cards where clients can actually look at those cards.

Both owners are good people and while they make a profit, neither are outrageous on their prices

Regards
Rich

Al at Triple Cards runs a very neat store; he is very nice and knowledgeable about the hobby, although his "bread and butter" is definitely the newer stuff. He has one glass case with vintage cards, mostly graded (a few Goudey, 1949, 50, 51 Bowman), and a few vintage football. He caters to the new crowd that loves hits, etc. I usually go there to pick up supplies, and my sons get a pack or two of Pokemon (Al is usually $1 cheaper per pack on those than the typical Walmart/Target, and that's what my sons collect mainly). He told me last week that it is not uncommon for a couple of his customers to come in and drop $5 grand on the Bowman Chrome line (WOW).

Only thing new I have bought recently (to satisfy that pack opening itch) is the Panini Cooperstown line (really good, as it is only older stars, and I got a Molitor autograph in the first pack I purchased) and the new 2014 Donruss (just for old times sake)…..

Have never been to Nicks, but will have to go, since he evidently has more vintage, etc. Neither store, though, stock BCW other than holders, just UltraPro (cheaper price point).
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:53 AM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
Larry
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southfield, Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
Nice post and thread John. I took the liberty of moving it to the forum front page so more folks could see it. We have one decent card shop within an hour of where I live but even he has limited vintage. I haven't been there in probably a half a year or more. The internet, for all it's good and bad, casts a wide net.
+++1. It used to be that if you were seeking a really rare item, you might have to attend all the nationals plus tons of regionals to find the card, and even so, the task might take years of effort. Now, no matter how rare, it will eventually appear either on ebay or through one of the auction houses (which have grown so tremendously in the past decade plus) if you simply have the patience to wait.

Best to all,

Larry
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