Why doesn't SGC have......

[Vegas-guy]

After looking (and reading) a post about a card in the BST section (Scott and Dean) I wondered why SGC doesn't have 1/2 grades all the way up? Does anyone know why? Just wondered why other TPGs do and they don't????

[Ronnie73]

I noticed that too when I was listing the number of Hindu backs sold in the last year in a previous post. I questioned what a PSA 6.5 would crossover to since SGC has no 82 grade. I have no idea why they don't have certain half grades. I also don't like the fact that they list no qualifiers. I see alot of SGC 10's that would never crossover to a NQ PSA 1.

[glchen]

I thought SGC was the first major TPG to come out w/ the 1/2 point scale. (I don't know why they didn't do it all the way, however.) Then when Beckett started grading, they also used the 1/2 point scale, and finally PSA came around to half points a couple of years ago.

Many people just don't like qualifiers on their flips, so SGC gives that option to those people. They lower the grade accordingly. However, obviously, you pretty much can't go lower than Poor (other than Authentic), so a card in a Poor SGC flip w/ writing won't cross into a NQ PSA 1 holder.

[DeanH3]

Hi Reg,

I too wish SGC gave 1/2 grades. That was my conundrum when I bought that Young card. It was in an older PSA holder. I was torn on what to do with it. Attempt a 4.5 grade, which I believe it deserves, or cross it to SGC. At the time I had no intentions of selling it and so I decided to go SGC because I like the way cards look in their holders compared to PSA. And talking to a few people at the time they felt that even though it's not in a 4.5 holder, the card would speak for itself. I'm sure SGC had its reasons for the grading scale they use. One possibilty is that maybe when TPG originated the focus of many collectors, me included, was on the higher end (7 plus) grades. So the need for 1/2 grades on lower end grades (2-4) was not perceived as important. Now with more focus on mid-grade examples there is a market for it but it's probably too late for SGC to change. Just a thought.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

Many people just don't like qualifiers on their flips, so SGC gives that option to those people. They lower the grade accordingly.

SGC doesn't offer that option. They've never used qualifiers.

[E93]

THey are planning on initiating half grades for some of the levels where they do not currently have them. I just spoke with them last week and they said they needed to do some computer changes, but that it is in the planning.
JimB

[Vegas-guy]

Originally Posted by E93

THey are planning on initiating half grades for some of the levels where they do not currently have them. I just spoke with them last week and they said they needed to do some computer changes, but that it is in the planning.
JimB

Good to know! I wonder how much more $$$ they will get from people cracking out cards and resubmitting?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Vegas-guy

Good to know! I wonder how much more $$$ they will get from people cracking out cards and resubmitting?

I don't think it would be much because their higher grades already use a half point system so there's no reason or incentive to crack those...and I just don't see people cracking out a lower grade card to get a half point bump (unless it's a rare/expensive card).

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't think it would be much because their higher grades already use a half point system so there's no reason or incentive to crack those...and I just don't see people cracking out a lower grade card to get a half point bump (unless it's a rare/expensive card).

http://www.sgccard.com/grading_scale.htm

The biggest hole to fill is the before mentioned 82 (6.5), but I can see resubmissions at a SGC 55 (4.5) grade.

[4815162342]

Why not really go all the way and count each increment between 1 and 100? From Pristine (100) all the way down to Impecunious (1).

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Why not really go all the way and count each increment between 1 and 100? From Pristine (100) all the way down to Impecunious (1).

"We" generally can't agree between a 40 and a 50 in many cases! I'd hate to see the thread as to why my card got a 47, it should have been at least a 49...

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

SGC doesn't offer that option. They've never used qualifiers.

Personally, I think qualifiers are stupid. I don't there is anything dumber than grading a card PSA 8 (oc) in my opinion. If the card is OC, how can you say it's an 8! Just another gimmick!

[E93]

It seems to me that one finds the widest range of condition variation at the lower range. Grades of 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 seem the most useful to me.
JimB

[glchen]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

SGC doesn't offer that option. They've never used qualifiers.

Yea, I didn't word that very well. I meant options from other TPG's that use qualifiers. For example, I don't think that SGC uses qualifiers like Altered for Authentic cards (in most cases) while PSA and BVG do. It makes for a cleaner flip.

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by YankeeCollector

Personally, I think qualifiers are stupid. I don't there is anything dumber than grading a card PSA 8 (oc) in my opinion. If the card is OC, how can you say it's an 8! Just another gimmick!

I strongly disagree with this opinion. I prefer to have greater transparency in understanding why a certain grade was assigned. Especially in the imperfect eBay marketplace. I rely to a certain extent on a third party opinion when considering a purchase. If i find a listing for a card with a grade of psa 4mk I can make a buying decision based on the knowledge that the card has a mark on it. I do not have that assurity with an sgc 50. I have bought several cards in sgc 50 holders with marks on them that have no chance to cross to an psa 6 mk. The assertion that sgc takes this into account and drops the grade accordingly is simply not true in many cases. In extreme cases, yes but not always. I prefer the extra information the psa qualifier provides. In a perfect world where I had the card in hand pre-purchase it might not matter but I buy less than 1% of my cards face to face.

[YankeeCollector]

In my opinion, a severely OC card shouldn't be an 8! A card with a mark on it shouldn't be a 4! Slight paper loss can make cards that appear 4s and 5s be 1s and 2s! Can someone please tell me how a card that's been miscut or have a mark on it or it severely OC be a PSA 7 or PSA 8?

[BleedinBlue]

A psa 8 oc is not the same as a psa 8. Nobody considers them the same. The card is an 8 but it is oc. Hence the psa 8 oc. This is clear to everybody and is clearly stated on the flip. You can request psa grade w/o qualifiers if it bothers you that much. What bothers me is when a card with a mark gets an sgc 50. It is not but that is what they assign it.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

A psa 8 oc is not the same as a psa 8. Nobody considers them the same. The card is an 8 but it is oc. Hence the psa 8 oc. This is clear to everybody and is clearly stated on the flip. You can request psa grade w/o qualifiers if it bothers you that much. What bothers me is when a card with a mark gets an sgc 50. It is not but that is what they assign it.

My problem is that how can a card that is OC be an 8 even though they state 8(oc)? what purpose do they serve by calling it an 8oc? How stupid is that. the card is obviously flawed. Why assign it such a lofty grade even though it's OC! I'm pretty sure that PSA includes centering in its analysis of it technical grade.

[BleedinBlue]

Technical grade is separate from qualification. Corners, edges & surface make the card an 8. 60/40 or better centering make it an unqualified 8. Worse than 60/40 gets the oc designation. 100/0 gets the mc for miscut designation. Their system grades the physical characteristics of the card then the characteristics of the image. I hear plenty of complaints of oj cards with practically invisible images getting high technical grades from sgc and not properly taking image into account.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

Technical grade is separate from qualification. Corners, edges & surface make the card an 8. 60/40 or better centering make it an unqualified 8. Worse than 60/40 gets the oc designation. 100/0 gets the mc for miscut designation. Their system grades the physical characteristics of the card then the characteristics of the image. I hear plenty of complaints of oj cards with practically invisible images getting high technical grades from sgc and not properly taking image into account.

I understand but I don't think a card with 80/20 centering or 100/0 centering should ever have an 8 in their slab even though it's 8oc.

Many buyers would tend to agree bc an 8oc usually sells at a 5or 6 price. therefore, I didn't understand the need to put an 8 in the slab. what is the point if you are going to get a price that is 2-3 full grades below.

[BleedinBlue]

Because buyers know an 8oc is not the same as an eight and pay accordingly. Would you rather a card with 61/39 centering get a 6 and then have to wonder why it got marked down? And again, a 100/0 card dies not get an oc. It gets a mc. Sgc has no problem ignoring mc cards and failing to mark down for it. I'd rather have the info clearly on the flip rather than having to guess what sgc saw or didn't see.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

A psa 8 oc is not the same as a psa 8. Nobody considers them the same. The card is an 8 but it is oc. Hence the psa 8 oc. This is clear to everybody and is clearly stated on the flip. You can request psa grade w/o qualifiers if it bothers you that much. What bothers me is when a card with a mark gets an sgc 50. It is not but that is what they assign it.

I've got a bunch of crease-free SGC 40s with soft corners... Are those PSA 8 SC? Or what about a card with nice registration an strong corners, but a tiny corner crease... PSA 9 CC?

All kidding aside, I think the point of view of many SGC collectors is that any flaw brings down the technical grade...

[BleedinBlue]

I just sgc would tell me what the flaw is rather than me having me try to guess what the grader was seeing. Sgc also does not downgrade for miscut t206s. How many miscut American beauty backed cards do you see that do not downgrade for the miscut?

[chaddurbin]

being OC is not the same as a wrinkle or a soft corner. most likely it was a defect from the factory and the cutting was wonky. i can absolutely see how a near mint/mint can be cut OC...and thus graded an 8oc.

if you want to pick on qualifiers, go with marking or staining or even print defect...OC is legit and confirmed OG.

[4815162342]

High grade qualifiers are PSA's way of acknowledging creaseless, very sharp cornered cards with other flaws.

[insidethewrapper]

Should be graded 1-100. Look at centering, corners, creases, focus, notches , print marks, color or eye appeal etc. For example :if a crease on the card the highest # would be 40 and go from there. If good 55-45 centering with crease gets around 40, if centering is less continue to go down maybe 35, etc.

Cards with borders should be computer analyzed with laser to determine precise centering ( no qualifiers ) ! If 80/20 then maybe 65 would be the maximum grade with other factors lowering this number ( such as a crease etc).

If a grading company would do this ( 1-100 scale with computerized guidelines and remove the human element) I would send in my cards. I would think the card could be placed under a measuring device and a computer readout could get a precise reading.

[freakhappy]

I'm not a big fan of qualifiers, but I don't usually let them bother me too much.

One of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to qualifiers is when people try to sell their PSA 8oc for a PSA 8 price. I know it was said earlier that buyers know how to distinguish the price difference between the two, but that statement is false sometimes (Qualifiers and BccG). Believe it or not, we have many people that are uneducated in the grading scale and the qualifiers make it that much more difficult. That being said, it's common sense for most of us, but many, many people use the qualifiers to their advantage to make more money. If you need a qualifier to tell you why you got the grade you did...I feel sorry for you it's not that hard to tell why you got the grade you did. At least Beckett tells you why you got the grade you did on modern and some older cards.

So realistically, qualifiers are present to tell us we have an otherwise very nice card other than this one defect...just don't get it...give us the real grade and leave off the bs. So let's say that a card grades a PSA 8mk because of a pen mark on the back. What would that card grade if it didn't have the qualifier? PSA 1.5 or 2??? So how can we assess the qualifier properly on marks? We can't simply knock the grade down two notches like the general rule of thumb for other qualifiers? Probably not. Just something to chew on...

[teetwoohsix]

I see all points made, I don't like the "qualifiers" though......I mean, one can usually see what the issue is that would designate the qualifier....mark, off center, etc...

Would someone fairly new to collecting get thrown off by what a qualifier was, and pay the price of an 8 on an 8oc? I think it's possible.

Sincerely, Clayton

[BleedinBlue]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I see all points made, I don't like the "qualifiers" though......I mean, one can usually see what the issue is that would designate the qualifier....mark, off center, etc...

Would someone fairly new to collecting get thrown off by what a qualifier was, and pay the price of an 8 on an 8oc? I think it's possible.

Sincerely, Clayton

I think it's much more likely that somebody will pay SGC 50 pricing for a card with a mark on the back the the seller doesn't show a scan of than somebody paying PSA 8 prices for a PSA 8 OC card. Sure it happens. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

[insidethewrapper]

I think one of the biggest problems with grading is how to treat the back of the card and it's affect on the total grade. A very nice presented card can be lowered significantly because of some slight pencil mark on the back etc . I really don't know how to grade a card like that.

Any ideas of how to approach this grading issue ?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

I think it's much more likely that somebody will pay SGC 50 pricing for a card with a mark on the back the the seller doesn't show a scan of than somebody paying PSA 8 prices for a PSA 8 OC card. Sure it happens. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

You've mentioned this several times now and I am calling BS. Show me one SGC 50 card with a mark. You said you had several. I just want to see one.

[MilBraves]

Does anyone know if SGC gives hand cut cards a numerical grade? I know for sure PSA does.

[freakhappy]

Braves,

SGC does merit number grades on hand cut cards...they have a standard just like PSA when it comes to how much "dotted line" needs to show. I believe the line has to be present. I'm not an expert on it and you might want to search the SGC website to get exact specification.

[BleedinBlue]

I'm eating some crow on this one. This came out of an SGC 30 holder which would make it a PSA 3 MK equivalent. Not sure how this ended up in my collection to be honest with you because it's not on my purchase list. There are light pen marks on the front that didn't show up in the scan when I bought it. So, I don't appear to have an SGC 40/50 with a MK. But I do have MC cards. Tonight I can provide scans of MC cards that I know where the flips are.

Question about this card though. As I look at this scan it appears it may be a ghost image on the back. Anybody else see the image and a theory on who it may be? How should this card be graded?

[Bunker]

I thought "OC" stood for "Outstanding Card"

j/k

[AndyG09]

Anybody else see the image and a theory on who it may be? How should this card be graded?

[/QUOTE]


Could that possibly be Conroy Fielding?

Best,

Andy

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

I'm eating some crow on this one. This came out of an SGC 30 holder which would make it a PSA 3 MK equivalent. Not sure how this ended up in my collection to be honest with you because it's not on my purchase list. There are light pen marks on the front that didn't show up in the scan when I bought it. So, I don't appear to have an SGC 40/50 with a MK. But I do have MC cards. Tonight I can provide scans of MC cards that I know where the flips are.

Question about this card though. As I look at this scan it appears it may be a ghost image on the back. Anybody else see the image and a theory on who it may be? How should this card be graded?

If the card was an SGC 30, then that would make it about right. An SGC 30 is a 2. PSA bumped it up a grade, but gave it a qualifier. In other words, SGC probably thought the card was worthy of a 3, but lowered it a grade because of the mark. Speaking of which, it actually looks more like a stain to me. If that is the case, it should have received the ST qualifier, not MK. MK is usually reserved for pen/pencil marks.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by BleedinBlue

But I do have MC cards. Tonight I can provide scans of MC cards that I know where the flips are

Sure, SGC will grade a miscut card, but the MC will be taken into consideration in the final grade. Take this '68 Mantle for instance. It looks like it would have probably graded a 4 if it had decent centering. So SGC bumped it down a couple of grades for the MC. If it were graded by PSA it would have probably graded a PSA 4 MC. SGC doesn't use qualifiers. They just knock the grade down accordingly.

I guess I just don't see your point when you say SGC grades MC cards. Should they refuse to grade them? Do you not agree with the grade assigned to the Mantle?

[glchen]

I know when I sold this card raw, it had a light pencil mark on the back, and it found it's way into an SGC 50 holder. Unfortunately, I don't have a scan of the back in the holder.

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by glchen

I know when I sold this card raw, it had a light pencil mark on the back, and it found it's way into an SGC 50 holder. Unfortunately, I don't have a scan of the back in the holder.

Without a back scan, I'd assume that the pencil mark was erased. Can't imagine it would get a 50 with the mark on the back.

[philliesphan]

had an SGC 40 card [graded so low because of centering], cracked it out, got it regarded as PSA 9 MC, and sold it for about 3x what I originally paid for it.

We can all complain about not liking qualifiers, but sometimes they serve a great place in the hobby.

For example, doesn't John Wondaticket have a PSA 8 N172 Ed Delahanty that has the MK qualifier because it's literally among the nicest/strongest images Old Judge N172s I've ever seen, but it has writing on the back (which distracts in no way).

[Tom S.]

I was looking at the SGC pop reports today and noticed that they have added "35" (2.5) to their grading scale.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Braves,

SGC does merit number grades on hand cut cards...they have a standard just like PSA when it comes to how much "dotted line" needs to show. I believe the line has to be present. I'm not an expert on it and you might want to search the SGC website to get exact specification.

Just when I think I know what the standard is, I see something like this:



I guess it does go against the common argument that the difference btw an "8" and "9" is nearly undetectable.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Tom S.

I was looking at the SGC pop reports today and noticed that they have added "35" (2.5) to their grading scale.

That's great news! I always wondered why they issued some half-grades, but not to every one of them...didn't make sense to me. Glad to see them get on board!

[Peter_Spaeth]

The SGC scale always has confused me. Why is it 20 points from EX to EXMT but only 4 points from NM to NMMT?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The SGC scale always has confused me. Why is it 20 points from EX to EXMT but only 4 points from NM to NMMT?

I think SGC just was making things up as they went along. They succeeded in confusing everyone when they came up with this point system

However, you will have an easier time figuring out SGC's logic than figuring out how PSA actually comes up with some of their grades...

[CMIZ5290]

and only 2 points from mint to gem mint!

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I've got a bunch of crease-free SGC 40s with soft corners... Are those PSA 8 SC? Or what about a card with nice registration an strong corners, but a tiny corner crease... PSA 9 CC?

All kidding aside, I think the point of view of many SGC collectors is that any flaw brings down the technical grade...

Well said! I was thinking of how to put this into words... Then read your post...

Very Well Said!

[freakhappy]

How long before sellers on Ebay start including this in their description: "SGC 30, should be a 35, regrade!!??"

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by insidethewrapper

I think one of the biggest problems with grading is how to treat the back of the card and it's affect on the total grade. A very nice presented card can be lowered significantly because of some slight pencil mark on the back etc . I really don't know how to grade a card like that.

Any ideas of how to approach this grading issue ?

It's a Shame... but it iS what it iS! In my thoughts a Pin hole, a slight pencil mark or a stamp pad ink are all one's a, maybe two's. The Card could be Beautiful all the way around and still a 1 or a 2!

However, and we all know this, it's not going to effect the final hammer price of the card!