1991 Topps variations

[YazFenway08]

i am putting together a ‘91 topps set and trying to include all the main variations, including the light/dark logos and print code variations

i dont seem to have a single “dark logo, print code A/B” variation.

does anyone know where these come from? certain factory sets, wax/cello/rack, etc?

thanks in advance

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

i am putting together a ‘91 topps set and trying to include all the main variations, including the light/dark logos and print code variations

i dont seem to have a single “dark logo, print code A/B” variation.

does anyone know where these come from? certain factory sets, wax/cello/rack, etc?

thanks in advance

There's a few completists on the site for this monster. If you truly want to do master on 91' including back variations, it's going to be a project and a half...good luck! Personally I have only bothered with Desert Shield and the double fronts for 91, so I don't have a ton of info.

Junk Wax Gems has a list of known A/B he keeps up - https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/ta...ps-master-set/

[YazFenway08]

thanks justin. that was super helpful. i had no idea those AB variations were rare…just thought they came from a type of packaging that i never opened. those might have to just come off my target list of there are only 10-15 of each.

[ALR-bishop]

Agree with Justin. Assuming you do not limit yourself to "hobby recognized variations", I do not think I have ever seen a full "master" list of all the possible front and back variants of this set. But if one exists I would expect Dylan to have it

[jacksoncoupage]

RE: the A*B* cards there should be 132 subjects since they affect the A* sheet only.

To date, no concrete info exists on what packaging type(s) they come from.

Topps printed cards for two different destinations: hobby and retail and there are distinct variations between those runs and they each had their own set of correction runs as well.

For example: boxes marked 'PICTURE CARDS' had certain errors initially that boxes produced at the same time marked 'BUBBLE GUM CARDS' did not. And visa-versa. Over time and updates to the plates, these eventually had some of the same versions in each box. To further complicate things, there are variations that only exist in one type or the other.

This set is probably the most complex in Topps' (flagship) history, there is no real defined master set list to work off of, which, to me, makes it more fun and allows some flexibility. I went further into this in a Beckett article a few years ago.

Happy to answer any questions I can about this set. I've spent way too much of my life with these cards.

[YazFenway08]

thanks guys for all the great information. i truly had no idea how far down the rabbit hole i would be going with this set! i am going to read all the suggested articles and do a bit more research…but maybe now i will try to tackle it…or parts of it.

mike

[steve B]

The fun is that there's still room to discover something "new" in 91 Topps.

And with differences of opinion about what's a variation or not, there probably won't be a truly complete list.

For example, I separate out a third version of the backs that under UV is a very dark red. It's reactive, but in an odd way.

I also have set aside cards with what I think are stock differences also UV related. And a couple potential gloss differences.

And my list for varieties that can be seen has stuff that isn't on other lists.

It's a fun set if you're both cheap and insane.

[ALR-bishop]

I have another question for you 1991 Topps collectors. I think this has been previously discussed. It is my understanding that prior to the issue of the set in packs Topps went into the market and got at least 3 full sets of each prior issue. Someone could win a complete run as the grand prize in the instant win game insert contest ( you can collect a set of the instant win cards as well. I have a set minus 3 which I think may have been single issue big winner cards....not sure). Anyone know if the grand prize was collected

I think you could also win a complete set of each the individual sets as well, right ?. Anyone know if all sets were claimed/won ?

Finally you could get individual cards inserted into the 91 packs. ( I do not think 1951 was included). The oversized cards ( 52-56) were not included as inserts and had wo be claimed with winner cards. I think some pos 56 cards with a recognized higher value at the time also had to be claimed by winner card. Not sure. Anyone know if all cards were claimed ? Wonder if some decent value cards still remain out there in unopened packs

The inserts cards I have seen, many possibly bought on the secondary market for the promotion, were not "mint" condition cards

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have another question for you 1991 Topps collectors. I think this has been previously discussed. It is my understanding that prior to the issue of the set in packs Topps went into the market and got at least 3 full sets of each prior issue. Someone could win a complete run as the grand prize in the instant win game insert contest ( you can collect a set of the instant win cards as well. I have a set minus 3 which I think may have been single issue big winner cards....not sure). Anyone know if the grand prize was collected

I think you could also win a complete set of each the individual sets as well, right ?. Anyone know if all sets were claimed/won ?

Finally you could get individual cards inserted into the 91 packs. ( I do not think 1951 was included). The oversized cards ( 52-56) were not included as inserts and had wo be claimed with winner cards. I think some pos 56 cards with a recognized higher value at the time also had to be claimed by winner card. Not sure. Anyone know if all cards were claimed ? Wonder if some decent value cards still remain out there in unopened packs

The inserts cards I have seen, many possibly bought on the secondary market for the promotion, were not "mint" condition cards

I opened a ton of 91 Topps wax pack back in the day. I pulled one 88 common out of a pack. Nobody else I actually knew pulled anything out of a pack back then.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I opened a ton of 91 Topps wax pack back in the day. I pulled one 88 common out of a pack. Nobody else I actually knew pulled anything out of a pack back then.

I ripped a fair amount back in '91 and never found anything. There were stories like "my friend two states over found the Yount rookie!", or "my mother's best friend's uncle's barber's nephew found the 1970 Clemente" - hard to verify at best. With my luck, if I had found anything it would have been a checklist from 1990.

For a brief time in 91-92, Topps published it's own magazine and I distinctly recall a photo of the lucky guy who was the grand prize winner posing about albums full of cards. I think it said he'd be selling the collection.

[swarmee]

But this was also back when every gas station had a case of cards on the shelf and Sam's Club was selling pallets.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

But this was also back when every gas station had a case of cards on the shelf and Sam's Club was selling pallets.

LOL, pretty sure you can still buy pallets of 91 Topps.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by steve B

The fun is that there's still room to discover something "new" in 91 Topps.

100%! And while I do think we are nearing the end of discovery of new things, I absolutely believe there are a few more surprises to be uncovered.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have another question for you 1991 Topps collectors. I think this has been previously discussed. It is my understanding that prior to the issue of the set in packs Topps went into the market and got at least 3 full sets of each prior issue. Someone could win a complete run as the grand prize in the instant win game insert contest ( you can collect a set of the instant win cards as well. I have a set minus 3 which I think may have been single issue big winner cards....not sure). Anyone know if the grand prize was collected

I think you could also win a complete set of each the individual sets as well, right ?. Anyone know if all sets were claimed/won ?

Finally you could get individual cards inserted into the 91 packs. ( I do not think 1951 was included). The oversized cards ( 52-56) were not included as inserts and had wo be claimed with winner cards. I think some pos 56 cards with a recognized higher value at the time also had to be claimed by winner card. Not sure. Anyone know if all cards were claimed ? Wonder if some decent value cards still remain out there in unopened packs

The inserts cards I have seen, many possibly bought on the secondary market for the promotion, were not "mint" condition cards

I believe it was and it was reported in Topps magazine.

The Instant Win Sweepstakes cards with X on them were winners for various prizes. One of them turned up recently on Facebook but the seller wasn't interested in moving it. It was the first time I'd actually seen one.

I believe the vintage card redemptions are a different thing and I have yet to see a copy of any redemption. Im assuming any pulled were mailed in, the question is whether any remain in packs.

[ALR-bishop]

Thanks Dylan. I have all the Topps magazines. Guess I need to go back and read them

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I believe it was and it was reported in Topps magazine.

The Instant Win Sweepstakes cards with X on them were winners for various prizes. One of them turned up recently on Facebook but the seller wasn't interested in moving it. It was the first time I'd actually seen one.

I believe the vintage card redemptions are a different thing and I have yet to see a copy of any redemption. Im assuming any pulled were mailed in, the question is whether any remain in packs.

I bought a case of the 91 cello boxes. I opened half of them, never saw a single X on any of them, never pulled any vintage cards. I still have 6-7 cello boxes left. Gonna do something with them, just don't know what yet.

Butch T.

[insidethewrapper]

The instant game card indicates "1991 Topps Retail Packs ". Chance for a winner 1/1000. This would come to around 24,530,000 packs . Divided by 36/box, about 682,000 retail boxes !!!!

[saucywombat]

I pulled a 1962 Topps Dallas Green about 10 years ago looking for errors/variations.

[Harliduck]

Originally Posted by saucywombat

I pulled a 1962 Topps Dallas Green about 10 years ago looking for errors/variations.

I pulled a VERY OC 1970 Topps Cito Gaston...after opening a ton I had bought at Costco, I was pretty excited to actually get something.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

RE: the A*B* cards there should be 132 subjects since they affect the A* sheet only.

To date, no concrete info exists on what packaging type(s) they come from.

Topps printed cards for two different destinations: hobby and retail and there are distinct variations between those runs and they each had their own set of correction runs as well.

For example: boxes marked 'PICTURE CARDS' had certain errors initially that boxes produced at the same time marked 'BUBBLE GUM CARDS' did not. And visa-versa. Over time and updates to the plates, these eventually had some of the same versions in each box. To further complicate things, there are variations that only exist in one type or the other.

This set is probably the most complex in Topps' (flagship) history, there is no real defined master set list to work off of, which, to me, makes it more fun and allows some flexibility. I went further into this in a Beckett article a few years ago.

Happy to answer any questions I can about this set. I've spent way too much of my life with these cards.

I pulled A*B* cards from 2 separate cello boxes (bought from same person). Sold most of the cards for $5 each. I have 3 A*B* McGwires, and all are diamond cut with a print line. If I remember correctly, there is a manager card (or 2) that doesn't have the A*B* copyright (but should have had it).

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

I pulled A*B* cards from 2 separate cello boxes (bought from same person). Sold most of the cards for $5 each. I have 3 A*B* McGwires, and all are diamond cut with a print line. If I remember correctly, there is a manager card (or 2) that doesn't have the A*B* copyright (but should have had it).

Very helpful, thank you.

I believe that Tom Trebelhorn is one of the managers and the only way that you can find his A* variation is with the A*B* run. Im curious about the other MGR card.

[aredsfan]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

i am putting together a ‘91 topps set and trying to include all the main variations, including the light/dark logos and print code variations

i dont seem to have a single “dark logo, print code A/B” variation.

does anyone know where these come from? certain factory sets, wax/cello/rack, etc?

thanks in advance

I've been putting my Topps complete sets into binders. I have 76-93, 2000, 2008, 2021 and 2022 flagship and 2019 and 2022 Heritage. When I started putting my 1991 set into a binder, I, too, got sucked into this rabbit hole. I actually put the set together from packs back in 91, and I have my marked checklists to prove it. I actually made my own checklist of variations, based on what was being reported in Beckett at the time, I believe. I don't think the Mark Whiten variation was known then. I remember thinking there was something about those dark logos on the back of some cards, but all of my doubles got dispensed with somewhere along the way. I wonder now if I had any A*B* variants, but it seems unlikely.

I'm going to go with the variations that are on Trading Card Database for now. I'll just leave blank spaces in my binder sheets for all of those A*B* (and probably the Whiten and Drabek) variations. I've bought unopened wax, cello and rack pack boxes, plus a few complete sets (factory and hand-collated) in an attempt to get all of the more common variations before I give it a rest for a while.

I did actually pull at least one vintage card from a pack. It was a 1970 Terry Harmon, I believe. I still have it. It will go in the binder at the end of the (massive) complete set.

[ALR-bishop]

Welcome aboard redfan

[ALR-bishop]

Double post

[ALR-bishop]

Dylan likely has several more

[gawaintheknight]

If anyone needs a few thousand more to sort through please make me an offer....

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Dylan likely has several more

Whiten was a quick get for me but Drabek took a bit of time. And I ended up getting both for reasonable prices, which is always nice. I just wish the cello case I bought back in 91 has these in them. But alas, nope.

[bnorth]

I found these and a couple Dennis Boyd with the pink tip. The backs show the regular and error version. The Segui is the error corrected inner border error. The Drabek is a color variation the inner border is grey and has a purple background on the color variation.

Too bad this thread wasn't posted a few months ago. I recently threw away a 800 count box full of most of 91 errors except the AB sheet code errors.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Dylan likely has several more

Al,

There is another Whiten variant where his hand is over the thin black border. Not to be confused with the hand extending into the white area error. But his flesh is over the thin black line. Not easy to spot and therefore not too desirable to most, Im sure.



Sadly, I need a Whiten, Hoiles and Drabek for a working "master set."

[YazFenway08]

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all. That seems odd to me...and I'm not seeing it with any of the other cards with similar characteristics. I don't think I have this one card that perhaps came out of a busted factory set of vending...but would that explain why only one is different? I am sure the other 14 came from various stages of print runs throughout late '90 and '91.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all. That seems odd to me...and I'm not seeing it with any of the other cards with similar characteristics. I don't think I have this one card that perhaps came out of a busted factory set of vending...but would that explain why only one is different? I am sure the other 14 came from various stages of print runs throughout late '90 and '91.

My memory sucks so hopefully someone else can comment. I believe the glow back and non glow backs are from different packaging. I know I was putting both sets together from the silly amounts of 91 Topps I had. Then someone told me it was just the packaging they came in so I stopped sorting.

[YazFenway08]

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout

and on the related topic of Desert Shield...I spent some time looking on Blowout at some of the fakes they had uncovered along with high -res closeups of the stamps.

I thought I was pretty comfortable after reading all the help you and ZachWheat had provided over the years...but now I think I give up. If those slabbed DS cards are really fakes, it means the scammers have learned all they needed and have perfected their craft...I cannot discern much of a difference anymore.

I really had hoped that cards in the most recent slabs would come with some more intelligence from the TPGs...(yes, I realize how ridiculous that sounded before I even finished typing it)

did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout

and on the related topic of Desert Shield...I spent some time looking on Blowout at some of the fakes they had uncovered along with high -res closeups of the stamps.

I thought I was pretty comfortable after reading all the help you and ZachWheat had provided over the years...but now I think I give up. If those slabbed DS cards are really fakes, it means the scammers have learned all they needed and have perfected their craft...I cannot discern much of a difference anymore.

I really had hoped that cards in the most recent slabs would come with some more intelligence from the TPGs...(yes, I realize how ridiculous that sounded before I even finished typing it)

did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

Because it is just a foil stamp on the DS cards the fakes showed up pretty quickly. The grading companies are horrible at grading them. I have noticed way more of the fake Chipper cards getting graded. For fun I just checked eBay and to me the majority of the high graded ones are fake. Unfortunately they started grading one of the obvious(to me) fakes and now there are a lot of that version in slabs.

[bnorth]

Just found another one. Found this Robin Ventura in a binder with what looks like a brown inner left border. I believe this to be the one Dylan has listed as red with grey overprint.

[YazFenway08]

hey Ben. here is the raw chipper i have had for 30 years….spurred the questions about when the “fakes” started. the picture admittedy isn’t great

[bnorth]

Here is your Chipper next to a known real one with the shield on similar condition. With the fuzzy pic and the weird tilt of the shield on the card I don't like it, a clearer pic would help. I do like it more since I put the other one beside it than when I first looked at it. I would bet PSA would like it though. What does everyone else think?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Just found another one. Found this Robin Ventura in a binder with what looks like a brown inner left border. I believe this to be the one Dylan has listed as red with grey overprint.

Yes, I believe that Topps originally printed with gray, then added a red layer over it before changing to solid red. Very apparent when all are together in person.

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

the different packaging makes sense...just weird that I have the single standout


did the fakery start immediately in 1991? the reason I ask is that the bulk of cards I have are from early accumulated lots...maybe halfway into 1992. I had always "hoped" that they were legit

I recall hearing/learning about them being faked in 1991 or 1992. I purchased a Robin Ventura miscut around then and I remember the dealers talking about counterfeits of them going around.

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

so I have been chipping away at variations and a desert shield set. even modestly invested in a handheld UV/blacklight to try and help identify fakes in DS. That's just been a whole other story...but I digress

I did find something weird in the base topps set backs.


I have maybe 15 Chipper rookies. There isnt a "bold logo" variation for this and they all have the same sheet IDs. 14 of the cards fluoresce on the back around the edges and on the light logo...but one literally doesnt light up at all.

There is no Chipper with Bold 40th logo because that variation only affects A* and B* sheet players. Chipper can be found without ANY of the 40th logo on back.

There should not be any variations in the Desert Shield set since the cards were from a very distinct run. Whenever I have encountered an error or correted counterpart to a known DS variant, it is always a fake (Mike Walker, Efrain Valdez, Pat Borders etc). I believe that all DS cards should have glow backs but Zack Wheat found one or two oddballs in his stash. All A* and B* DS cards should he Bold 40th backs.

And on the topic of fake DS cards, if anyone stumbles on a fake Robin Ventura, please let me know, I'd love to own a copy if it uses the wrong border version or is non-bold 40th on back.

[YazFenway08]

Ben,

I know my Chipper pics arent very good...but my scanner is even worse. In hand, that one lesser known "tell" that I think I know about from corresponding with you and ZachWheat looks ok...and on the known fakes it really stands out

the other thing about timing...Chipper was certainly a known guy in '91...but he ceretianly wasn't Chipper Chipper yet...would someone really have spent time faking a prospect and selling it for $5...I mean with inflation, thats like $60 today, but still

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by YazFenway08

Ben,

I know my Chipper pics arent very good...but my scanner is even worse. In hand, that one lesser known "tell" that I think I know about from corresponding with you and ZachWheat looks ok...and on the known fakes it really stands out

the other thing about timing...Chipper was certainly a known guy in '91...but he ceretianly wasn't Chipper Chipper yet...would someone really have spent time faking a prospect and selling it for $5...I mean with inflation, thats like $60 today, but still

People forge $1-$5 autographs all the time, eBay has a ton of them listed right now. It is a popular misconception that only expensive stuff is faked. Absolutely everything is faked. It is way easier to sell the fake cheap stuff because so many think nobody would fake that to make a couple dollars.

I just got lucky because usually my pics are way worse than yours on the DS cards.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

People forge $1-$5 autographs all the time, eBay has a ton of them listed right now. It is a popular misconception that only expensive stuff is faked. Absolutely everything is faked. It is way easier to sell the fake cheap stuff because so many think nobody would fake that to make a couple dollars.

I just got lucky because usually my pics are way worse than yours on the DS cards.

Yep. And people werent forging Chipper so much as the 1991 cards in general. The DS cards were scorching hot.

And...for the record, Chipper was literally the #1 overall draft pick in 1990. He was cheap in 1991-1992 (I bought every card that Burbank Sportscards had in stock back then and most were $0.30-40/ea) but a major prospect.

[jacksoncoupage]

Just revised the checklist/article for 1991 Topps with a lot of supplemental information.

https://junkwaxgems.wordpress.com/20...ing-checklist/

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

I believe it was and it was reported in Topps magazine.

The Instant Win Sweepstakes cards with X on them were winners for various prizes. One of them turned up recently on Facebook but the seller wasn't interested in moving it. It was the first time I'd actually seen one.

I believe the vintage card redemptions are a different thing and I have yet to see a copy of any redemption. Im assuming any pulled were mailed in, the question is whether any remain in packs.

The grand prize was claimed and the lucky winner bought a bunch of stuff at the 1992 National Convention. That information was discussed in some detail in, I think, Pete Williams' Card Sharks book

I think amongst other things he purchased a 1982 Topps Traded Case and a 1952 Topps Mantle.

Regards
Rich

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

The grand prize was claimed and the lucky winner bought a bunch of stuff at the 1992 National Convention. That information was discussed in some detail in, I think, Pete Williams' Card Sharks book

I think amongst other things he purchased a 1982 Topps Traded Case and a 1952 Topps Mantle.

Regards
Rich

rich,

I do know about the grand prize winner, he was also featured in Topps Magazine at the time. Also, according to an ad run around late 1991, Mr. Mint bought his collection!

To clarify, I don't think any expired/unredeemed redemptions have turned up for sale - I dont know anyone who owns one. There are two types of redemptions that Topps inserted:

(1) For oversized/high value vintage cards

(2) For Sweepstakes Game prizes (cards with X on front)

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

rich,

I do know about the grand prize winner, he was also featured in Topps Magazine at the time. Also, according to an ad run around late 1991, Mr. Mint bought his collection!

To clarify, I don't think any expired/unredeemed redemptions have turned up for sale - I dont know anyone who owns one. There are two types of redemptions that Topps inserted:

(1) For oversized/high value vintage cards

(2) For Sweepstakes Game prizes (cards with X on front)

I have collected error and oddball stuff before 91 and I have also never once seen any of the redemption cards for any high end or oversize cards.

Also want to add I like many others greatly appreciate all the effort Dylan has put into his website.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by bnorth

My memory sucks so hopefully someone else can comment. I believe the glow back and non glow backs are from different packaging. I know I was putting both sets together from the silly amounts of 91 Topps I had. Then someone told me it was just the packaging they came in so I stopped sorting.

Ben, I think the glow backs were from the UV brightener added to the ink and not distinguishable from packaging (not certain), although that would make sense. DS cards should be in wax packs only, but we know DS cards come in both varieties. I have a DS card where the ink wasn't mixed completely so some of the red ink on the card is a glow back and the remainder is not. Glowback=does not fluoresce under UV light

[ALR-bishop]

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

This card I have is from 1990, right ?

1990 Major Legue Debut (corners of the sheet)

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have collected error and oddball stuff before 91 and I have also never once seen any of the redemption cards for any high end or oversize cards.

Also want to add I like many others greatly appreciate all the effort Dylan has put into his website.

Thanks Ben!

[judsonhamlin]

Didn’t see the 124 Bush no print code listed on the newest version of the’91 checklist. Is that still a real variant?

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Didn’t see the 124 Bush no print code listed on the newest version of the’91 checklist. Is that still a real variant?

It sure is. I own a single copy and have never found another. A few sold on ebay/comc a couple years back for very low prices.

[deweyinthehall]

A basic (dumb?) question from someone who already has 50-60 variations in his PC and is wondering how deep into this swamp to go....

Are ALL 792 cards available in light and dark logo versions?

Anyone want to speculate what the heck was happening at Topps in late 1990 and early 1991 that caused this insanity?