blank backs

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Posted By: Kevin

"I'd say its highly unlikely that any of them are doctored to make them look like blank backs."

Collectors are always willing to pay a premium for anything that is different or considered errors. Of course high grade pre-war cards sell for more but what would a blank back Cobb T205, T206 C-series etc. in low grade would sell for? Here are some examples. I'll let you guess the issue(s).



As I mentioned before, imagine what is not (will not) being shown. "Anyone can doctor a card, it's the one who can undoctor a card and get it authenticated that has the real skill."

For most, these normally taboo topics may be new, perhaps a bit of a shock. I hope you are enjoying them.

Kevin


edited to say - oppps this was meant to be posted as a reply on another thread.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I own a number of blank back proof cards I purchased in the 1980s directly from Topps archives and have a COA/provenance from Topps Archives and the original auction catalog.

What's the documentation of provenance (sales history, ownership, past existence) on your blank backs? Do you have a receipt from when you bought them?

Why can't a collector, any collector, ask the seller where the rare variation came from? Was it purchased from Rob Lifson or Mastro or was it in the Barry Halper auction? Was it purchased on eBay in this state? And, if the seller can't provide proof that he bought it from a reputable seller or that it was sold in reputable auction, why can't the say, "No thanks. I only buy rare cards that has fair documented history of existence, and if you can't even show me where you bought it from, I'm not interested"? If a forger made the card himself or took it out of a holder, fixed and resubmitted it for higher grade, he won't be able to show where he bought the card. If he bought the card in Gem Mint, he should have no trouble showing that he bought card in that condition. If he didn't buy the card in Gem Mint 10 or blank backed, how's he going to show that he bought it in Gem Mint 10 or blank backed. And if he can't do something as simple as show where he bought it, why does a collector have to purchase it?

Why isn't the collector's mantra, "Show me where you purchased this card? And if you can't, I'm not buying. I'm not even asking you to show that the card was around for fifteen years. I'm asking you to show me that you bought this card in this state."

If someone came to me with a Mickey Mantle autographed baseball, I'd say "Where'd you get this?" If the owner shows me he purchased it in a Mike Gutierrez Auction I might purchase. If he won't tell me where he got it or it has a history that makes me confident, I'll pass.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

From a collecter that has been in the market for a blank back t206, I find this a bit disturbing. Under the assumption that one of the cards in Kevin's post is a t206, it would bring many t206 blank back cards under suspicion. While provenance is ideal, the blank back cards are not that rare to the extent that most ebayers (including myself) would demand it. Kevin already showed in the previous thread that writing and colors can be removed. Although, none of us have reviewed Kevin's doctored card up close to see if the alterations are undetectable, it certainly raises questions.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Will the grading services put blank back T206's in "Authentic" holders?

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Posted By: Brian

Kevin,

Presuming there are blank backs that are authentic, are you able to identify them as such? Knowing that you (and others) can create blank backs, can you identify those cards that have been doctored? Based on your knowledge, can the grading companies?

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Posted By: Lee

from my experience, only GAI will encapsulate a blank back t206

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Posted By: Brian

Barry,

I have a blank backed T212-1 that SGC refused to holder, but this was before their AUTH service. I know they slab and grade E blank backs regularly.

Perhaps I will let Kevin look at my obak in person to get his opinion.

Brian

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Barry, I was just about to edit my post and ask the same question. Even if the grading companies could detect the alteration, would it be labeled as "Authentic"? Most of these blanks backs are labeled as such anyway due to an irregular cut. So I guess thats a problem with this designation since the slab labels do not indicate the alteration. Or do they?

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Posted By: Lee

GAI will not give a numerical grade to my blank back t206, just encapsulate as authentic.

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Posted By: barrysloate

A blank backed card can't be labelled "Authentic" if the inks or a layer of paper have been removed. To qualify for "Authentic" it would have had to leave the factory without printing on the reverse. The graders should be able to determine this.

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Posted By: Richard

"A blank backed card can't be labelled "Authentic" if the inks or a layer of paper have been removed. To qualify for "Authentic" it would have had to leave the factory without printing on the reverse."

Barry - are you sure? SGC and PSA will slab cards that have been trimmed, or have undergone other types of doctoring, as "authentic." Then why not a card that has been doctored to remove ink?

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Posted By: Brian

Barry,

I am thinking that the grading companies can't detect what Kevin has discovered, I don't believe he is removing paper.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Richard- fair point, but I know that they will draw the line somewhere. When they reach a gray area and are not sure what they are looking at, they prefer not to holder. Clearly, I don't know exactly what that threshhold is.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

That's good to know. But it brings up another question. Are these alterations good enough to pass by the grading companies? Have you ever attempted this Kevin and if so are you willing to share this information?

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Posted By: Richard

Edited out a stupid comment.

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Posted By: Kevin

So many questions, as expected (LOL).

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"What's the documentation of provenance (sales history, ownership, past existence) on your blank backs? Do you have a receipt from when you bought them?"

Serious(LOL)? The blank backs, blank fronts and completely blank cards in my collection have great provenance. I can certify and say with certainty each have been doctored into their current condition.
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"I am thinking that the grading companies can't detect what Kevin has discovered, I don't believe he is removing paper."

True. They have not had any paper removed and are undetecible. Each has passed the scrutiny of the hobby's top grader(s). Yikes, I know this is a topic of debate and personal opinions, so please let's not go there. Some comments were; never before seen, scary and cannot detect.

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"To qualify for "Authentic" it would have had to leave the factory without printing on the reverse. The graders should be able to determine this."

There is no way to tell since they look factory authentic...not a fiber disturbed. I'm quite sure graders are not able to determine this. Keep in mind, I have been told many of these doctoring examples are new and unique.

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"Perhaps I will let Kevin look at my obak in person to get his opinion."

Many collectors do just that. I've looked at countless cards to render an opinion, most of which are slabbed. At this point the opinion is based on idividual interpretation of objective findings. Not all doctored cards are obvious.

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"it would bring many t206 blank back cards under suspicion"

IMHO anything blank from any year (even modern) should be considered suspicious.

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(from another thread) "I think Kevin should be working for one of the grading companies."

Ironically I live about 25 miles from PSA and am a contributing writer. My guess is they would claim they already employ the best and keep up to date with the latest doctoring techniques.


Kevin

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Posted By: Kevin

Since you now know blanks, print variations (ghost images) and errors can be created without detection, here's another area I'm sure many probably thought could not be done.

As mentioned before, because of cost, most of the time I display non-sport beater cards but this is usually after it has successfully been done to a sports card. Here is an example of a card with an overprint. For this particular example the back of one was "overprinted" to the front of another.



As you can see (although not read) there is writing on the front. Again, this was a rush job but I think you understand.

Enjoy!

Kevin