Photo question: Gehrig/Ruth July 4, 1939

[Snapolit1]

I love the Gehrig Ruth "hug" photo from the day Gehrig retired. Does anyone know how rare Type I photos are of the Ruth/Gehrig hug? Seems like they come up for auction not infrequently. I'd like to get one but don't want to overpay. Thanks for any intelligence you might have on this.

[Lordstan]

Steve,
They are not rare, but are very desirable. Most advanced photo collectors really want one in their collection as the photo is so iconic in baseball lore. Expect to pay anywhere from $3K to probably in the $6K range depending on which pose, horizontal vs vertical, and the condition.
my 2c
Mark

[Snapolit1]

Mark - thanks. Really appreciate the info. As a follow up question: are they not rare because many photographers had that access, or are they not rare because many copies were generated soon after it happened? I guess I am wondering why, if the primary purpose of these was to get them into the newspaper the next day, why there would have been a major effort to print scads of full size copies?

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Mark - thanks. Really appreciate the info. As a follow up question: are they not rare because many photographers had that access, or are they not rare because many copies were generated soon after it happened? I guess I am wondering why, if the primary purpose of these was to get them into the newspaper the next day, why there would have been a major effort to print scads of full size copies?

Define "rare". All type 1 photos are rare in the fact that if you are looking for one in particular, they could range from 0-10 most of the time with some exception(type 1s that lasted the test of time).
This particular day was a big/known event. It wasn't a nonscripted hr for example. Therefore, multiple news services were there. Hence, multiple angles/shots. It was also newsworthy so multiple photos were distributed.

Some photographers captured the hugging scene better then their counterpart. If you don't care which shot it is, then I guess that would be less rare than if you wanted one specific shot.

If you are in the market, I would hold out for either the "horizontal shot" that was used for items of memorabilia such as the cover of sleeve of the record from that day or the "vertical" shot used for the 1962 topps card(like I noted in my pm). Depending on your price point, I would also Try and get one in good shape.

[Lordstan]

My assessment of rarity has more to do with how often I see things up for sale than an absolute number of items available. Since I have been collecting photos of Gehrig(around 7-8yrs now) I would estimate that one of the various examples of these photos comes up for sale around once or twice a year. Considering there are plenty of photos that come up far less frequently than that, I don't consider this photo rare, even though there might only be a handful of each pose.
Now that fact does not make it less desirable to own one, but if there were only one known it would probably sell for waaay more money. As a comparison, the only know type 1 of Cobb sliding into third, which is certainly equally iconic sold for $49K recently. If there was only one of these, it could be the same.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

My assessment of rarity has more to do with how often I see things up for sale than an absolute number of items available. Since I have been collecting photos of Gehrig(around 7-8yrs now) I would estimate that one of the various examples of these photos comes up for sale around once or twice a year. Considering there are plenty of photos that come up far less frequently than that, I don't consider this photo rare, even though there might only be a handful of each pose.
Now that fact does not make it less desirable to own one, but if there were only one known it would probably sell for waaay more money. As a comparison, the only know type 1 of Cobb sliding into third, which is certainly equally iconic sold for $49K recently. If there was only one of these, it could be the same.

The Cobb is certainly an extreme example..and I believe there is more than 1 and I believe it went for 77k(if you're talking about the Conlon). That said, I totally get your point and agree with it.
I actually thought I addressed it when comparing to a non scripted event in differences of rarity(the other end of spectrum would be "the babe bows out shot").
1-2 a year is prob about right. Especially if you include "the holy grail" example which has come up 4 times now with 4 different sellers since February. Yikes! You could have got a bargain on that one..

I think these have come out more in the last 5 years with archives being sold. Personally I think it has given a false sense of their rarity. That said, if you go in the mindset of 5-10 of each pose, I think that would be a good starting point answering the question of "how rare" regardless of how many times they have shown up in recent years.

I hope the op finds an example they are happy with. It is certainly a special "snapshot" of baseball history.

Ps: 7-8 years already Mark? 2008? Wow.. Time flies .. You are becoming a photo, senior citizen all of a sudden. Unfortunately, there are no discounts on photos with old age

[Snapolit1]

Thanks guys. Much appreciated. You know about 100 times more about these things than folks who make a living selling them.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

I think these have come out more in the last 5 years with archives being sold. Personally I think it has given a false sense of their rarity. That said, if you go in the mindset of 5-10 of each pose, I think that would be a good starting point answering the question of "how rare" regardless of how many times they have shown up in recent years.

Totally agree with you on this point. The pricier pieces always tend to trade hands more often as they become more of a commodity or investment piece, and collectors' grips are loosened in conjunction with the rising price point. You can't really estimate the rarity of something based on how often it changes hands unless you're paying very close attention (as Ben clearly is) and take note of when the same piece flips owners multiple times.

I agree too with there being a perceived abundance of supply due to so many archives being opened up in a relatively short period of time. Drink up while you can, folks, because the well's bound to run dry at some point.

[prewarsports]

Just to quickly chime in, when we sold the Cobb Conlon photo we did pretty extensive research over several years and talked to just about everyone we knew of in the hobby. We also spoke with Henry Yee who confirmed to me that there was absolutely no other confirmed Type 1 examples of that photo known to exist that he or anyone else was aware of had ever seen as well. There are rumors that others exist, but none have ever been confirmed. If there is another one out there, it is very well hidden or likely not a real type 1. That is not say there isn't the possibility, there is just no other confirmed examples.

As for the Ruth/Gehrig photo being talked about here, it is a rare image and I have only ever seen a handful of type 1 examples of various angles in our experience. There are a bunch of type 2 and type 3-4 examples that were done in the 1940's through the 1980's as the event became more and more famous so be careful when looking to pick one up as these look old but are not type 1 examples.

Rhys

[Lordstan]

Ben,
I agree with you as well.
I used the Cobb as an extreme example as if there were only one of the Ruth Gehrig photo extant, considering the historical context of the moment, it certainly could rise closer to that type of price point.

Lance,
That is very true as well. Eventually, significant new archives will stop being found

[Snapolit1]

Rhys - you guys have great auctions. If only I could win one for a change. Been a bridesmaid a half dozen times. Looking forward to see what you have on deck. Steve

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Just to quickly chime in, when we sold the Cobb Conlon photo we did pretty extensive research over several years and talked to just about everyone we knew of in the hobby. We also spoke with Henry Yee who confirmed to me that there was absolutely no other confirmed Type 1 examples of that photo known to exist that he or anyone else was aware of had ever seen as well. There are rumors that others exist, but none have ever been confirmed. If there is another one out there, it is very well hidden or likely not a real type 1. That is not say there isn't the possibility, there is just no other confirmed examples.

As for the Ruth/Gehrig photo being talked about here, it is a rare image and I have only ever seen a handful of type 1 examples of various angles in our experience. There are a bunch of type 2 and type 3-4 examples that were done in the 1940's through the 1980's as the event became more and more famous so be careful when looking to pick one up as these look old but are not type 1 examples.

Rhys

This kind of got off topic with the Cobb photo example.
I believe we talked about that particular photo numerous times before auction and clearly I felt very highly of it too. The proof is in the run I made for it as you know
You/Rmy did a superb job in marketing and selling it. So good, I was unable to attain it seemingly at any cost. It is true that it is the only "confirmed" type 1. My comment had nothing to do with your listing. You did it up right.
However, I would never buy a photo thinking it was the only one.
I buy a photo knowing it is very very rare regardless if 1 or 5.

Regarding the babe and gehrig hugging: I have seen several of each sell over the years. That is not very many. Most have come out to the public in the last 5 years. If you like/want it, I would not be afraid to pay retail.

Attached is an example in my collection. I have owned it for just over 7 years. Before that, I wondered if I would ever add it as I never saw it for sale. Since, I have seen just 2 examples for public sale of this exact shot.

I will also add that, like a growing number of people today, I was on eBay for hours a day way back then looking for photos. I also was on top of all the major auctions. So I feel my number is pretty accurate coupled with trying to buy privately from others " in the know".
Type 1 examples are very rare. As rare as the Cobb? No.. but still very very rare.

[Snapolit1]

What a shot. Gehrig certainly was one seriously stoic sob. Looks like a guy with the world on a string.

[prewarsports]

I hear ya Ben, no issues whatsoever with what you said and I am sure there probably is another one out there somewhere.

Most of these famous photos had many (hundreds for sure) printed and distributed, its all just a matter of how many have survived. Just like baseball cards, these photographs had absolutely no value beyond the functional image itself and as such, they were given no respect by newsrooms, magazines, or institutions until the last 20-30 years.

When we got a newspaper archive in a few years ago (the one with all the Conlon images), I was blown away to hear that the newspaper threw away their entire archive of sports photos... IN 1996! You would think that SOMEONE by that time would have taken a look and thought to themselves, "hey there is some pretty old photos of some pretty famous people in here, maybe we should save these" but it was one lone sports editor who dumpster dived and saved all those things (but 50% of the archive still got put in a landfill, the stuff he did not want). You would have expected this in the 1940's, but 1996? Crazy. If this was happening in 1996, it is no wonder 99% or more of all the valuable older images ever taken and distributed to newspapers are now lost to history.

Photos as a whole are not rare, there are hundreds of millions of press photos in all the newspaper archives in the country, but quality images of specific events are many times rarer than the famed T206 Wagner! This is why the best images will continue to rise in value and remain tremendous investments compared to other collectibles out there.

Rhys