Cutting sheets

[ksabet]

I am curious in the Mastro thread it was mentioned that virtually every sheet is being purchased in order to cut it up.

Question: If a card is hand cut in 2015 or factory cut from a sheet in 1933 what is the difference. All sheets were meant to be cut into cards so is there a real issue with it being done at a later date.

I see a big difference between this and what Topps and Donruss does to bats or jerseys.

This question is purely for my own education.

[Jobu]

My thought on this is that these cards may not be hand cut. I assume that the types of cutting instruments used are still around and perhaps even still used today. So it is entirely possible that someone is cutting sheets using the same, or highly similar, technology. As far as I know, this would be difficult, if not impossible, to detect. I might be way off base on this, but I have always wondered about it.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Jobu

My thought on this is that these cards may not be hand cut. I assume that the types of cutting instruments used are still around and perhaps even still used today. So it is entirely possible that someone is cutting sheets using the same, or highly similar, technology. As far as I know, this would be difficult, if not impossible, to detect. I might be way off base on this, but I have always wondered about it.

Sure I get that but as far as the ethics go, does it matter if it was cut in 1933 or 2015?

Its not fake or a reprint it is an actual card just cut in a different era. I am just curious why this would be frowned upon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It may sound circular, but an original card is one cut contemporaneously at the factory. Someone hacking up a sheet decades later is not creating original cards one reason being that alhough the doctors are good the cut will not be the same. Nor will the historical imprecision of centering problems rough cuts etc. be the same. It's just more card doctoring plain and simple, even if they look pretty.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It may sound circular, but an original card is one cut contemporaneously at the factory. Someone hacking up a sheet decades later is not creating original cards one reason being that alhough the doctors are good the cut will not be the same. Nor will the historical imprecision of centering problems rough cuts etc. be the same. It's just more card doctoring plain and simple, even if they look pretty.

but back in 1933 someone chose not to cut the sheets knowing they could get cut later...I don't see a problem in cutting them later.....the sheets are part of the additional population out there..it not like they are cheap to buy ..I thought they actually sell for more than the cards would go card for card anyway... I do see the other side to it...its a close call ....I would buy the holder not the card here..if size is right and its authentic and in a PSA holder.is a real card..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

but back in 1933 someone chose not to cut the sheets knowing they could get cut later...I don't see a problem in cutting them later.....the sheets are part of the additional population out there..it not like they are cheap to buy ..I thought they actually sell for more than the cards would go card for card anyway... I do see the other side to it...its a close call ....I would buy the holder not the card here..if size is right and its authentic and in a PSA holder.is a real card..

One man's ceiling is another man's floor. To me they are doctored cards. And if the grading services know they are sheet cut they won't grade them. PS Sheets survived for various reasons by historic accident, but not because the intent was to cut them later.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One man's ceiling is another man's floor. To me they are doctored cards. And if the grading services know they are sheet cut they won't grade them. PS Sheets survived for various reasons by historic accident, but not because the intent was to cut them later.

I understand your point and subconsciously I feel uncomfortable with it as well. Not sure why though, it seems different from adding paper or trimming below size requirements or soaking.

I don't want to debate "The Card" again but would this fall into the category of sheet cutting? If it meets all the requirements just done at a later time is it really "altered"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As I understand the history the Wagner was already sheet cut when Mastro trimmed it. Or people think so anyway because of the reverse only existing in sheet cut form.

And sure, some alterations may be more offensive than others but that doesn't mean they aren't alterations.

[icollectDCsports]

I'd rather own a pristine pre-War card, knowing that it was obtained from original packaging and carefully preserved over the years than the same "card" that was cut from a sheet yesterday. It's not just about the image, or repros would suffice for many more of us; it's about the history (and what we can imagine about it) of the object itself.

[bnorth]

Like most things everyone has a different opinion. I own several full sheets and over the years have cut several of them up.

From my experience in telling everyone the cards being sold are professionally(hand) cut from a full sheet. Very few wont buy the card but most wont pay the same for the hand cut cards as they will for factory cut cards.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

I'd rather own a pristine pre-War card, knowing that it was obtained from original packaging and carefully preserved over the years than the same "card" that was cut from a sheet yesterday. It's not just about the image, or repros would suffice for many more of us; it's about the history (and what we can imagine about it) of the object itself.

id like to know if cards are soaked or not too but noone says it......as far as sheets and why they exist now..noone really knows the intentions...

i just dont see it as a problem on value cause sheets go for huge prices on old cards...good luck with the cutting...if its 'trimmed' you just killed the value..

[conor912]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Like most things everyone has a different opinion. I own several full sheets and over the years have cut several of them up.

From my experience in telling everyone the cards being sold are professionally(hand) cut from a full sheet. Very few wont buy the card but most wont pay the same for the hand cut cards as they will for factory cut cards.

Professionally hand cut?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by conor912

Professionally hand cut?

Lol yes. A friend own a framing gallery so I use his professional really expensive matting cutter to cut sheets. When I cut them using that all the cards are 2 1/2" X 3 1/2" like they should be not various sizes like most hand cut cards.

[rgpete]

What would be an accepted or general tolerance to the standard size of a particular issue such as 1935 Goudey 4 in 1 to being long and short

[t206blogcom]

An old card cut today was never distributed in a pack. That's a big difference in my opinion.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It may sound circular, but an original card is one cut contemporaneously at the factory. Someone hacking up a sheet decades later is not creating original cards one reason being that alhough the doctors are good the cut will not be the same. Nor will the historical imprecision of centering problems rough cuts etc. be the same. It's just more card doctoring plain and simple, even if they look pretty.

Maybe we should go with 'Type 1' vs 'Type 2' cut?

[MacDice]

Why would you want to cut it from a sheet? Isn't an uncut sheet harder to find than a single card?

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

An old card cut today was never distributed in a pack. That's a big difference in my opinion.

So you don't think 1915 CJ's are not worthy of collecting? No TPG should ever grade a Lajoie either.

Neither were ever in packs.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by MacDice

Why would you want to cut it from a sheet? Isn't an uncut sheet harder to find than a single card?

Harder to find maybe but not nearly as valuable as high grade singles

[drcy]

The rule is you disclose information and let the buyers decide. One collector may not care, one may care, one may it think the date of the cut doesn't matter, one may think it does matter-- and personal sentiments are a perfectly valid reason for determining a buy price. There are a lot of personal taste, personal aesthetics reasons for a valuation.

P.s., if there's nothing wrong with it and it shouldn't effect value, then there should be no problem in disclosing it. The reason people don't disclose things is because they believe the disclosure will lower sales price.

Disclose, disclose, disclose. It's not up to the seller to decide which value-effecting material information the buyer should receive, in particular as it relates to how an item has been physically altered decades after it was made. The seller doesn't get to "rationalize away" all the information the seller "doesn't need," especially when (by pure unforseen coincidence, of course) that disclosure would lower the sell price.

And if you think there's nothing wrong with a 1933 card sheet cut in 2015, great. If you want to specialized in modern cut cards because you consider them just as valid, go for it. That's a perfectly valid personal collecting sentiment. And if you think a 2015 reprint is just as pretty and is just as valid to you as a 1933 original, that's perfectly fine personal judgment-- but that doesn't excuse you from disclosing that a card you're selling is a reprint.

In short, if you think modern sheet cut vintage cards should be worth the same as vintage cut cards, that's fine. If you think modern sheet cut vintage cards should be worth the same as vintage cut cards so you don't have disclose to potential buyers that a card was modern cut, that's not fine.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by drcy

Disclose, disclose, disclose.

How close were ya again? Dat close?

(sorry, Friday after a looooong week)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

The rule is you disclose information and let the buyers decide. One collector may not care, one may care-- and personal sentiments are a perfectly valid reason for determining a buy price. There are a lot of personal taste, personal aesthetics reasons for a valuation.

P.s., if there's nothing wrong with it and it shouldn't effect value, then there should be no problem in disclosing it. The reason people don't disclose things is because they believe the disclosure will lower sales price.

Disclose, disclose, disclose. It's not up to the seller to decide which value-effecting material information the buyer should receive, in particular as it relates to how an item has been physically altered decades after it was made.

And if you think there's nothing wrong with a 1933 card sheet cut in 2015, great. If you want to specialized in modern cut cards because you consider them just as valid, go for it. That's a perfectly valid personal collecting sentiment. And if you think a 2015 reprint is just as pretty and is just as valid to you as a 1933 original, that's perfectly fine personal judgment-- but that doesn't excuse you from disclosing that a card you're selling is a reprint.

Once a card is in a holder, there is no such thing as disclosure.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Once a card is in a holder, there is no such thing as disclosure.

Its unfortunate but you are correct

[Peter_Spaeth]

I should qualify my statement slightly. I have seen REA descriptions where Rob has opined that despite being graded, a card is trimmed. That may have been confined to the Harris Collection, I don't recall now. But in any event, I don't think I have seen anyone else offer an independent opinion (unless it be that the card is undergraded). EDITED TO ADD I also remember that Rob identified some numerically graded Ramlys as sheet cut.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by MacDice

Why would you want to cut it from a sheet? Isn't an uncut sheet harder to find than a single card?

A sheet is harder to find, but some collectors that cut sheets hope to get 132 perfect cards for centering & corners or however many cards are on that particular sheet. The sum of the prices for "perfect" cards, if graded would probably be substantially more than the sheet cost.

Z