T207 Napoleon backs from 1912

[kmac32]

this has probably been hashed over before but is there a premium on T207 Napoleon backs? They seem fairly rare compared to the typical Recruit backs, and less common than Broadleaf and anonymous backs. Does anyone have some type of system for determining the value of the different T207 backs? Thanks,

Kmac

[caramelcard]

Hi Ken,

They're pretty tough to find. You'll find them with the same subjects as the recruits which is in my opinion one of the reasons why they're not as valuable as the other class of backs.

There's no system for value, but it's a good time to collect them.

Rob

[frohme]

Hey Ken,

I think Rob pretty much covers it. Previous survey numbers have them as pretty scarce/low-pop, but no one really seems to care ... in the same way that no one gives two hoots for the anonymous back in the Recruit series either. Those are on par difficulty-wise with the Napoleon-backed cards, but since they're all the same fronts, the only people that care are those putting full front/back runs together, either by player or team or position or a type set of backs, or ... whatever.

As for the backs, and valuations... its a tough call, primarily because there's a good bit of variation of difficulty within each class and back. No hard/fast rules
apply, per se. The Broadleaf class cards (Broadleaf, Cycle, Anon 25 backs, and the Anon 3 backs with the same 50 fronts) are harder (generally) than the Recruits, but the difference between, say, Mogridge and Benz in Broadleaf is significant. Cycles command a small premium as has been noted here before, likely due to the color, and (slight) scarcity difference. Within the recruit class, sure, Napoleon-backed cards are more difficult than the Recruits, but you;ll see ones that sit on eBay with BIN for a while, even with a fairly small multiplier for the back.

Whether or not its a good time to collect them or not is another question. Maybe some day, T207's will feel the love, but its been a while. Caertain cards seem to do well, and certain backs have some following, but T207s generally plod along, and there's not any real sign that they'll pick up any time soon. Maybe that means it *is* a good time to buy them, don't know.

Am I pessimistic? Sure thing. After buying as a "collector", thinking about the likely loss when divesting leaves me a little cold... sure won't be going out Gangnam style.

Hey Rob - hope you're well.

--
Mike

[caramelcard]

Hey Mike,

Yeah, that's what I meant by good time to collect. They seem to be pretty cold right now. It's refreshing to collect a set that's not hot. Too bad I'm not collecting them anymore. When a few of us were accumulating a lot of them of course they were on fire. At this year's national, I did not see any T207s trading. I didn't have that many at my table, but we had a few really nice ones and sold none. Didn't even show any to collectors.

Over the last 15 years or so, I can think of only a couple of folks that have collected Napoleon backs specifically. Always thought it was a good niche though.

Rob

[kmac32]

reason for the question is I am trying to complete a T207 Cubs subset. I have all 10 cards and now I am going for an example of each of the backs as a type set. Picked up Chance in Napoleon back and seem to have a fair deal but more curious if there was any multiplier on price. The book I have talks about Broadleaf and anon supposedly going for 1.5 times a recruit back but it really did not address the Napoleon backs. Only one missing in my back type set is a Cub with Broadleaf back.

[bcornell]

Agree with the points made by Mike and Rob.

I'm not sure anyone knows for certain if there are also Napoleon backs for each of the 150 cards that can have Recruit backs. My guess would be not. I think there's a subset of harder Recruit backs that aren't found with Napoleons.

As for the multiplier, that's in the eye of the T207 beholder. Say 2-3x what a Recruit would get, maybe. The hardest back of all (other than Red Cross, of course) is the Anon. from Louisiana, but I don't think anyone cares.

Bill

[RCMcKenzie]

T207 Napoleon backs are hard to find. I have about 6 or 7 of these and when I see them I am usually outbid on them. Not everyone would pay a premium, but if the T207 collectors see them they go for (as stated above) 2 or 3 times what a Recruit back would go for, sometimes more..

[frohme]

Hey Ken,

Hard part about the back multipliers like that is there aren't any cards available in both Recruit and Broadleaf, for the multiplier to have any real comparison. A multiplier for Cycle (over Broadleaf) makes sense, or Napoleon (over Recruit), but not for cross-class cards. I think Bill's estimate is allright on average, but there's such a wide disparity on cards within the Broadleaf class it really is a card-by-card call. Check out the (few) threads on the relative difficulty of cards in T207 and you'll see what I mean.

I know the precedence is established with T206 and there aren't any cards with *all* the backs, but there are enough different backs for the same cards for the "multiplier" to make at some (relative) sense in that set. Hard to say that it transfers cleanly, as there are fewer cards and a wide range of prices.

FWIW, I think you picked up the Chance Napoleon at a good price - had watched the card be relisted multiple time with slowly decreasing start/BIN (if I recall), and thought that someone would get a decent deal - glad to hear it was you.

I agree with Bill on the current uncertainty of anyone knowing that they all exist with Napoleon back - though I suspect someone could. My personal take is that all 150 Recruit-class cards are available with a Napoleon back, and will be confirmed ... many have simply been glossed over (pun intended) due to having the same front.

On your task, given that you only have two possible cards w/Broadleaf back (Saier, W. Miller), and both are a PITA ... you have a continuation of your previous fun in trying to complete the team set (congratulations on that, BTW). At least this time, you only need one or the other, not both... unless you want to be masochistic and go for the 32 card front/back Cubs master set:

• Recruit class - 24 cards - 1 ea of Recruit Fac 240, 606, and Napoleon for 8 players: Chance, Cole, Lennox, McIntire, Needham, Reulbach, Schulte, Tinker
• Broadleaf class - 8 cards - 1 ea of Broadleaf, Cycle, Anon Fac 25 and Fac 3 for 2 cards: Saier, W. Miller

Here's one to help you out

--
Mike

[kmac32]

Originally Posted by frohme

Hey Ken,

Hard part about the back multipliers like that is there aren't any cards available in both Recruit and Broadleaf, for the multiplier to have any real comparison. A multiplier for Cycle (over Broadleaf) makes sense, or Napoleon (over Recruit), but not for cross-class cards. I think Bill's estimate is allright on average, but there's such a wide disparity on cards within the Broadleaf class it really is a card-by-card call. Check out the (few) threads on the relative difficulty of cards in T207 and you'll see what I mean.

I know the precedence is established with T206 and there aren't any cards with *all* the backs, but there are enough different backs for the same cards for the "multiplier" to make at some (relative) sense in that set. Hard to say that it transfers cleanly, as there are fewer cards and a wide range of prices.

FWIW, I think you picked up the Chance Napoleon at a good price - had watched the card be relisted multiple time with slowly decreasing start/BIN (if I recall), and thought that someone would get a decent deal - glad to hear it was you.

I agree with Bill on the current uncertainty of anyone knowing that they all exist with Napoleon back - though I suspect someone could. My personal take is that all 150 Recruit-class cards are available with a Napoleon back, and will be confirmed ... many have simply been glossed over (pun intended) due to having the same front.

On your task, given that you only have two possible cards w/Broadleaf back (Saier, W. Miller), and both are a PITA ... you have a continuation of your previous fun in trying to complete the team set (congratulations on that, BTW). At least this time, you only need one or the other, not both... unless you want to be masochistic and go for the 32 card front/back Cubs master set:

• Recruit class - 24 cards - 1 ea of Recruit Fac 240, 606, and Napoleon for 8 players: Chance, Cole, Lennox, McIntire, Needham, Reulbach, Schulte, Tinker
• Broadleaf class - 8 cards - 1 ea of Broadleaf, Cycle, Anon Fac 25 and Fac 3 for 2 cards: Saier, W. Miller

Here's one to help you out

--
Mike

Beautiful Saier. At least I know what cards to look for. Saier would certainly be more in the budget. Currently I have Saier in red cycle and anonymous. I have Miller in anonymous from the Louisiana find. Don't quite understand why T207 cards are not that popular because they are unique and in their own way beautiful. All of mine are in SGC slabs and they are really fun. Finding a Broadleaf would be easy, the challenge is finding it with a Cub on it. I will probably end this quest when the Cubs do win a World Series.

[frohme]

Originally Posted by kmac32

[...]
Don't quite understand why T207 cards are not that popular because they are unique and in their own way beautiful.

Amen - others have said it more succinctly, but there's a certain haunting beauty to them, especially ones with proper color and registration. It is truly a love/hate thing.

Maybe if more people appreciated them ...

Originally Posted by kmac32

[...]
Finding a Broadleaf would be easy, the challenge is finding it with a Cub on it.

Yep ... PM sent.

--
Mike