Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Modern

All the stuff going on on that side of the hobby has been a revelation to me. I am not in the least bit surprised, I just didn't know the names or the extent of it.

[sportscardtheory]

It's almost as though some people can't see that it's not ONLY about altered cards. It's also about how a business REACTS to these findings. And PWCC, PSA and BGS' responses and lack thereof speak volumes to their complicity and that severely damages their credibility in the areas of the hobby in which they reside. It's about trust, and I no longer trust PWCC, PSA or BGS in any way. Pointing out other instances of such malfeasance among the hobby doesn't CHANGE that, so you're confused if you think it does. Pointing out some stuff about Probstein doesn't make THIS go away, sorry.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

It's almost as though some people can't see that it's not ONLY about altered cards. It's also about how a business REACTS to these findings. And PWCC, PSA and BGS' responses and lack thereof speak volumes to their complicity and that severely damages their credibility in the areas of business in which they reside. It's about trust, and I no longer trust PWCC, PSA or BGS in any way. Pointing out other instances of such malfeasance among the hobby doesn't CHANGE that, so you're confused if you think it does. Pointing out some stuff about Probstein doesn't make THIS go away, sorry.

It isn't about it going away.

I am just laughing at all of the self righteous people that think they are somehow noble for not bidding in PWCC auctions when funny business has been going on forever.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It isn't about it going away.

I am just laughing at all of the self righteous people that think they are somehow noble for not bidding in PWCC auctions when funny business has been going on forever.

You are laughing at people for 'doing their best'? That's YOUR sentiment. I can't tell if your'e trolling or just dumb, because it's obvious you don't believe a word you say.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

You are laughing at people for 'doing their best'? That's YOUR sentiment. I can't tell if your'e trolling or just dumb, because it's obvious you don't believe a word you say.

I am certainly not dumb. You don't get to the position in life that I am at and be dumb.

No trolling. I just think you guys are fooling yourselves if somehow boycotting PWCC is going to save you.

If PWCC goes down the consignments will flow elsewhere and the process starts all over.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I am certainly not dumb. You don't get to the position in life that I am at and be dumb.

No trolling. I just think you guys are fooling yourselves if somehow boycotting PWCC is going to save you.

If PWCC goes down the consignments will flow elsewhere and the process starts all over.

Seems like you don't care at all. So why are you even in these threads? To tell everyone there is fraud in the hobby and that you couldn't care less.

KthanksBye

[sportscardtheory]

Guy's got a huge PSA collection. No wonder he's running shadow interference/deflection. Many of the nay-sayers are just people with huge investments in PSA/BGS, have spent a ton with PWCC and are just here to protect their investments.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Seems like you don't care at all. So why are you even in these threads? To tell everyone there is fraud in the hobby and that you couldn't care less.

KthanksBye

To participate just like you. It seems the only opinion that is allowed is I won't do business with PWCC.

I am one of the collectors who simply will look at all cards that come for sale.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

All the stuff going on on that side of the hobby has been a revelation to me. I am not in the least bit surprised, I just didn't know the names or the extent of it.

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

The same name I sent you in a PM yesterday sends to both. It is common knowledge.

Like you I am not naming names on this board.

Anyone who thinks that somehow this is relegated to one auction house is dreaming. One of the reasons I think it is more prevalent to PWCC is they run a very serious business and do it well. The cash advances and use of cards as credit to buy more just leads to more submissions and the more submissions they get the more bids they get and once more the more submissions they get. It isn't rocket science.

Probably six years ago I got a serious warning on the CU message board from the moderator because I had accused someone of bidding on their own cards in a Probstein auction. The next day the person came into the thread and admitted it and the bids were canceled. This was at a similar time when Rick kept having a guy from NJ win auctions that he previewed in person and they would get sent to PSA and bumped and back in the next months auction.

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

Yet here you are sticking up for entities within the hobby who are clearly not on the up and up.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Yet here you are sticking up for entities within the hobby who are clearly not on the up and up.

I am not really sticking up for anyone. I realize the landscape and it is what it is.

I am simply saying I will continue to bid because they get the best stuff and I think others will too.

[Collect Equity]

So I've been thinking about this and I feel like trying to stop people from bidding is a losing battle because there is always a buyer/flipper/shiller who will prop the prices up.

So where you need to stop it is at the consignment level. I think most people like me who won't stop bidding because we don't want to miss a card we've been hunting for years, would be willing to not consign.

So let's start a petition and collect signatures of people who vow not to consign with PWCC. Something like:

We the undersigners will not consign with PWCC until Brent Huigens allows an independent 3rd party auditing company hired by a GoFundMe campaign to audit his full records of:
a) all payments to / from Gary Moser,
b) all consignments from Gary Moser,
c) all email interaction to / from Gary Moser,
d) all text messages to / from Gary Moser
e) all shipping records to / from Gary Moser.
f) all PWCC ebay accounts
g) all PWCC submitted cards for grading (PSA, BGS, SGC)
h) all communication with other dealers / collectors related to Gary Moser cards

This 3rd party will then state their opinion of:
1) Did PWCC know that Moser washed cards
2) Did PWCC know that Moser trimmed / colored cards
3) Was PWCC giving Moser hints about which cards to buy based upon their opinion of which would be cleaned easier
4) Was PWCC giving Moser cards special treatment with High-End labels
5) Was PWCC influencing bidders to bid on Moser treated cards
6) Did PWCC receive extra kick-backs or pay out Moser cards different than other sellers
7) Did PWCC knowingly shill bid or allow shill bidding on Moser cards
8) Did PWCC submit cards to PSA on behalf of Moser
9) Did PWCC send cards to Moser for cleaning
10) Was there any other unethical behavior in PWCC and Moser's relationship
11) Did PWCC shill bid their own auctions
12) Did PWCC sell their own cards

Until we get an answer on this, we the undersigners commit to not consign with PWCC:
Name or Alias, Ebay ID, Net54 ID, Blowout ID, PSA Registry ID, Collectors Universe ID, etc.
[We will collect any given of the above info]


If we as a community seek to get every member of Net54, Blowout, PSA Registry, Collectors Universe, etc. to sign up, it might put pressure on Brent to allow a 3rd party audit.

Maybe we could even start a GoFundMe and advertise the boycott on Net54 and other sites where PWCC has banners

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

So I've been thinking about this and I feel like trying to stop people from bidding is a losing battle because there is always a buyer/flipper/shiller who will prop the prices up.

So where you need to stop it is at the consignment level. I think most people like me who won't stop bidding because we don't want to miss a card we've been hunting for years, would be willing to not consign.

So let's start a petition and collect signatures of people who vow not to consign with PWCC. Something like:

We the undersigners will not consign with PWCC until Brent Huigens allows an independent 3rd party auditing company hired by a GoFundMe campaign to audit his full records of:
a) all payments to / from Gary Moser,
b) all consignments from Gary Moser,
c) all email interaction to / from Gary Moser,
d) all text messages to / from Gary Moser
e) all shipping records to / from Gary Moser.
f) all PWCC ebay accounts
g) all PWCC submitted cards for grading (PSA, BGS, SGC)
h) all communication with other dealers / collectors related to Gary Moser cards

This 3rd party will then state their opinion of:
1) Did PWCC know that Moser washed cards
2) Did PWCC know that Moser trimmed / colored cards
3) Was PWCC giving Moser hints about which cards to buy based upon their opinion of which would be cleaned easier
4) Was PWCC giving Moser cards special treatment with High-End labels
5) Was PWCC influencing bidders to bid on Moser treated cards
6) Did PWCC receive extra kick-backs or pay out Moser cards different than other sellers
7) Did PWCC knowingly shill bid or allow shill bidding on Moser cards
8) Did PWCC submit cards to PSA on behalf of Moser
9) Did PWCC send cards to Moser for cleaning
10) Was there any other unethical behavior in PWCC and Moser's relationship
11) Did PWCC shill bid their own auctions
12) Did PWCC sell their own cards

Until we get an answer on this, we the undersigners commit to not consign with PWCC:
Name or Alias, Ebay ID, Net54 ID, Blowout ID, PSA Registry ID, Collectors Universe ID, etc.
[We will collect any given of the above info]


If we as a community seek to get every member of Net54, Blowout, PSA Registry, Collectors Universe, etc. to sign up, it might put pressure on Brent to allow a 3rd party audit.

Maybe we could even start a GoFundMe and advertise the boycott on Net54 and other sites where PWCC has banners

Its a lot easier than that for me. I will not ever bid again with PWCC. Since I have never consigned, nor will I, that part is easy. About a week ago, PWCC had some cards that had been on my want list for years, but I just wasn't going to do that. After I made that decision, I slept well that night and did not worry at all about not winning the cards. Those cards are now someone else's problem.

If others feel differently, that's their call, but for me, stuff doesn't and shouldn't trump everything. I want to have some level of respect for the seller if I'm going to shell out a bunch of money for a card, or at least not detest their ethics, and I also want to have some degree of confidence that the card I am purchasing is actually what it purports to be. With PWCC, I no longer have either. I can wait. If I have to wait for a while, I can live with that. What I can't live with is buying from someone who I am now convinced is not on the up and up. So I'm done. Life's too short for that BS.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Its a lot easier than that for me. I will not ever bid again with PWCC. Since I have never consigned, nor will I, that part is easy. About a week ago, PWCC had some cards that had been on my want list for years, but I just wasn't going to do that. After I made that decision, I slept well that night and did not worry at all about not winning the cards. Those cards are now someone else's problem.

If others feel differently, that's their call, but for me, stuff doesn't and shouldn't trump everything. I want to have some level of respect for the seller if I'm going to shell out a bunch of money for a card, or at least not detest their ethics, and I also want to have some degree of confidence that the card I am purchasing is actually what it purports to be. With PWCC, I no longer have either. I can wait. If I have to wait for a while, I can live with that. What I can't live with is buying from someone who I am now convinced is not on the up and up. So I'm done. Life's too short for that BS.

This. Because of my pre-existing level of distrust I had not been buying anything I viewed as significant, but after the latest revelations, confirming I was lied to a couple of years ago, that's it. I'm done and like Kenny I don't really care what it is. I'm not going holier than thou, I'm not judging anyone who has a different perspective, just stating mine.

[Bram99]

They say the safest time to fly is after an air disaster, because companies will be more vigilant the day after than the day before. So could it be that Brent will be less likely to continue to put fraudulent cards up for action now than he was before BO members uncovered this situation?

Maybe buying from PWCC is safer now than it has been in years...

For the record though, I am furious about PWCC, PSA, and anyone who participated in the fraud / incompetance involved in this card doctoring scandal.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

This. Because of my pre-existing level of distrust I had not been buying anything I viewed as significant, but after the latest revelations, confirming I was lied to a couple of years ago, that's it. I'm done and like Kenny I don't really care what it is. I'm not going holier than thou, I'm not judging anyone who has a different perspective, just stating mine.

This sums up my outlook as well. Were it not for Net54 and the knowledge I have gained here, I probably would have bought several cards from PWCC and been subjected to shilling and no telling what else. Thanks to those of you who helped spread the word back a couple of years ago. I listened. Stuff does not trump all for me. I enjoy baseball, baseball cards, and history. However, I decided long ago to be selective regarding what I purchased and from whom I purchased it. And as much as I enjoy all of this, I won't let it be my only, all-consuming hobby because if I did, it would likely lead to bad decisions and lapses of judgment on my part. In situations such as these, a person has to be really honest with himself. Thanks, guys.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

The same name I sent you in a PM yesterday sends to both. It is common knowledge.

Like you I am not naming names on this board.

Anyone who thinks that somehow this is relegated to one auction house is dreaming. One of the reasons I think it is more prevalent to PWCC is they run a very serious business and do it well. The cash advances and use of cards as credit to buy more just leads to more submissions and the more submissions they get the more bids they get and once more the more submissions they get. It isn't rocket science.

Probably six years ago I got a serious warning on the CU message board from the moderator because I had accused someone of bidding on their own cards in a Probstein auction. The next day the person came into the thread and admitted it and the bids were canceled. This was at a similar time when Rick kept having a guy from NJ win auctions that he previewed in person and they would get sent to PSA and bumped and back in the next months auction.

The card business is a dirty business and you just have to do your best.

It's difficult to navigate for sure. I avoid quite a few sellers on anything significant, but that only gets you so far because cards circulate and I am sure I don't always spot the bad ones. Buying lower grades than I used to might have helped some or at least limited the exposure, but again, likely an imperfect solution.

[sportscardtheory]

I can't stand dishonest people and this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He says we have to be careful in this hobby then says he laughs at people for being careful in this hobby. Seems legit.

[HRBAKER]

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

That seems to be his logic. That and he says be careful in this hobby, but if you are he's laughing at you.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

Thank you, then they aren't all self-righteous.

Also, based on what appears to have been going on I would not agree that the same level of risk exists everywhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Thank you, then they aren't all self-righteous.

Also, based on what appears to have been going on I would not agree that the same level of risk exists everywhere.

I hope you're right Jeff but my thinking is that the nature of the search being done on BO is, understandably, skewed to one relationship which left an easier to follow paper trail. I think lots of venues are high risk depending on material.

[SMPEP]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

It sounds good to say I won't bid on PWCC cards. It is noble to put ethics above the pursuit of cards. That said I am not boycotting any one seller because the same risk exists everywhere.

No, actually it isn't.

Is there risk everywhere? Yes

Is it the same level of risk at every source? No.

You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows.

So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent.

Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we live in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by SMPEP

No, actually it isn't.

Is there risk everywhere? Yes

Is it the same level of risk at every source? No.

You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows.

So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent.

Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we line in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs.

So let me get this straight. From what I read you think that the other auction houses would have declined some of these bigger vintage cards.

Is this correct?

I fall on the side that they would have accepted them and so many of these cards can be sold anywhere. They have over 8,000 listings this auction. That is a ton of cards. Many of the cards that have been sold in their auctions turn over again somewhere else.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have actually probably bought more cards via Probstein.

He does a fine job but their packaging is awful compared to PWCC.

For those of you who've been around a while...

Mastro's packaging was also by far "best in class". 10 - 12 years ago, everyone here raved endlessly about their wonderful packaging and the fancy paper.

A very nice diversion tactic.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by perezfan

For those of you who've been around a while...

Mastro's packaging was also by far "best in class". 10 - 12 years ago, everyone here raved endlessly about their wonderful packaging and the fancy paper.

A very nice diversion tactic.

I don't pretend to know Brent's outcome but if he were a stock I still would be betting its going up.

PWCC core business is untouchable. The problem is all of the directions they are going in and time will tell how it plays out.

I have spent less than $1,000 dollars in their auctions and have never once consigned an item. I just won't restrict myself for the so called greater good.

I do like the fact that the transactions I have had all went extremely smoothly and this is the norm so not hard to figure out why they get so many repeat buyers.

[JeremyW]

Dave- Would you feel different if you had purchased a $2,000. card that had a before & after picture confirming alterations?

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

Dave- Would you feel different if you had purchased a $2,000. card that had a before & after picture confirming alterations?

No.

I could buy an altered card from anyone.

I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal.

Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards.

I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

No.

I could buy an altered card from anyone.

I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal.

Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards.

I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents.

You're living in Fantasyland and stand for nothing. Carry on minion.

[VoodooChild]

Due to a new job and moving from MD to AL, I haven't posted much in the past couple of years. Only 420 (ha...nice!!) posts in the past 6.5 years. Although I have still been actively collecting/buying.

I both purchased from and consigned to PWCC in the past. I did VERY well with my consignments. I do not buy anywhere close to high-end/graded cards and while I still collect modern, I don't even pay attention to graded modern stuff. That concept doesn't even make sense to me. Look, I have defended PWCC in the past but only when the accusations were just shilling. I knew that shilling had some effect on the prices realized but that was a problem with the eBay format as a whole. I thought factors such as having auctions every month that spanned pre-war to modern in all sports, being able to combine shipping and not having to pay until auction close, and being able to set snipes and not having to stay up all night/early morning to see if you won, all played into the prices people were willing to pay. I still believe all of that by the way.

However, I answered this poll that I won't buy from or consign to PWCC again and I won't. They should have to pay some serious consequences for their role in this fraud scandal but I'm skeptical. I probably won't buy from Probstein either and I may just be done buying pre-war from eBay altogether. I may actually be done with PSA too. I don't need any "hard" evidence to make up my own mind that PSA is involved with all this shady stuff. Somebody got paid off I'm sure of it. So, where does that leave me? Do I only buy SGC? I like Al's response to all of this, so do I only buy from LOTG? I don't know what to do yet. I'm pretty pissed off but I am not naive. I knew this stuff was going on since I was a kid in the early 80's. There were rumors about my local card shop owner trimming cards back then. And even though Gary/and all card "doctors" are really to blame for this, the thing that pisses me off the most is how PSA spends 10 seconds "examining" a card, slaps a b.s. grade on it, charges way too much, and somehow most people (including me) consider them the experts in the field. Ha....I think I just talked myself into being done with PSA and maybe even graded cards in general.

Life is too short. I got back into this hobby for fun and I am going to return to that. I'll keep my pre-war collection in tact and enjoy it when I can. I'll still enjoy buying raw modern cards and keeping up with the hobby as well. I'll stay connected with my favorite teams (Pirates, Steelers, Penguins) through this hobby but will not consider it a financial investment ever again. It's just cardboard, right.