PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

[pgconboy]

This entire situation looks incredibly dire.

[Rhotchkiss]

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

[swarmee]

Cancel the entire auction, and sell your vaults to cover the losses.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

Let’s make a note of whether that card is indeed removed. If that auction is terminated, then maybe that’s a tiny first step in the right direction.

[AddieJoss]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

[swarmee]

"WE'RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER LIST!" CaptainSpaulding on BO says that he has another 16 submissions tied to this scandal.

Brent, how do you like my new PSA slogan: "IN ON IT OR IMPOTENT?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

That's so sweet of him after polluting the hobby with altered cards for a decade and a half or however long it's been.

Why not just let bygones be bygones and we'll all get along, eh?

[bounce]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

[pgconboy]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

I'd bet my house that internet detectives will find cards missing from any list they provide unless its a giant .csv file of every card ever sold.

[swarmee]

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.

A lot of collectors are just in it for the money and ego though, at the high end of things. Not all of course.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

Hi Peter - yes, I've seen those. I've pretty much read every post of every relevant thread. I contributed a very small amount of the research to find original sales of some of the cards. Big kudos to those other blowout guys, though - they deserve all the credit.

I'm highly skeptical that an entire list will ever be produced, and here are a couple reasons why.

#1 - Money. Neither PWCC or PSA is going to want to refund on these cards. I think PWCC will selectively try and take the hit, but there are very likely going to be thousands of cards just from Moser. Who knows what else is out there, but I think it's pretty safe to assume there is way more than we've seen. As good as those Blowout guys are, they just don't have enough info to find it all and the Moser relationship alone goes back 7-8 years AT LEAST. That's not the only one out there, we just don't have great proof of others yet but I would imagine they are out there. I just don't believe PWCC will be able to take the hit across all the cards by themselves, so a flip numbers release is a low probability event. I don't see any way PSA agrees to admit they missed anything. As a public company, their ONLY real course of action is to defend their graders. Any flip number release from them is a no probability event. Get used to these words - "within tolerance", as that will be the key phrase. So then, is PWCC going to sue PSA to force them to contribute? That to me is also a going out of business strategy.

#2 - The Set Registry. I know a lot of people think the Set Registry is one of the reasons we are in this mess, but can you imagine the upheaval there is all of a sudden PSA were to actually decertify a bunch of cards? That's basically an invitation to make the claim for market difference with them, which again I see is a no probability event.

#3 - Data. In order to cross reference anything that comes out, you'd need the consignor and sales data from PWCC, all the submission data from PSA (and/or other TPGs) and all the bidder/sale data from eBay so it could all be cross-checked. There is NO WAY eBay is going to release all that data to anyone, and I don't see PSA releasing submission owner data to anyone. Once again, the public companies aren't going to assist this effort unless they are compelled to do so by a government agency of some kind, which is a fight that could take years and even if they had to do it the public market would NEVER get to see any of it.

So with that as your backdrop, I think the easiest choice is that PSA fights everyone to the death over their grades and backs their graders 100%, PWCC tries to take the financial hit and hopes the weight of lost consignment revenue and refunds for questionable cards doesn't sink them. No way PSA contributes to this, otherwise they are just inviting the refunds to pass over to them. PWCC isn't likely to fight that if they ever want to be able to submit again, otherwise they'd have to sue PSA which is essentially a going out of business plan as well.

There's no clear path here, but ultimately the easiest path seems to be this is PWCCs problem, and everybody else just kind of walks away. That's my take anyway.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

I've asked the exact same question in multiple threads. Like you, not justifying what happened or defending anyone, I'm just not sure what laws were broken.

[cdogstu99]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.



I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

Negligence. And if they knowingly knew that it was altered...well there’s your crime. Not saying they did but hard to ignore the volume from at least one trimmer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe I’m missing something obvious here, but what crime is being committed by someone who buys a baseball card in a PSA case and then cracks it out, trims the edge, and resubmits it to PSA, which then takes a fresh look at it (either realizing or not realizing they’ve seen the card before) and then assigned it a better grade on the basis that the card still meets their criteria. Or if Brent receives a card from a guy who got a card regraded from PSA.

I not justifying any of these shenanigans. Just wondering what LE is doing with this?

I was not aware that trimmed or recolored cards meet PSA's criteria for getting numerical grades. And that's the point. If the cards are submitted with full disclosure what was done to them, then that would be fine. But they are being submitted under a guise that such work was not performed, with the intent the cards be eventually purchased by collectors believing they are unaltered.

You see nothing fraudulent in that?

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

Is the near future here yet?
How long does it take to print a list of cards connected to Gary Moser?

[swarmee]

Still no word from PSA or PWCC on which law enforcement agency(ies) they claim to be working with.

[Republicaninmass]

"1952 Bowman Stan Musial #196 PSA 9 to 10: Value gain of $25,300.03"

Ouch, seem to remember someone posting about buying this card.

[swarmee]

UFFDAH posted about it on the PSA message board at the time; I linked it on Page 106 of the Mantle thread, and they said it was just featured in his collection article in the SMR.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

UFFDAH posted about it on the PSA message board at the time; I linked it on Page 106 of the Mantle thread, and they said it was just featured in his collection article in the SMR.

He posted here too.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...6&postcount=70

And he had this to say about it.

Peter - sellers like Brent, Steve Hart and some others are straight shooters. They build successful businesses because they are trustworthy. No different than my company taking care of our customers/consumers because we stand behind our product, you have to for repeat long term business. Brent does not hesitate to tell me to pass on one of his auction cards if he feels I should be patient and wait for a little stronger example knowing my goals and tastes. Sometimes my itchy trigger does not want to listen to him but I almost always do.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

"1952 Bowman Stan Musial #196 PSA 9 to 10: Value gain of $25,300.03"

Ouch, seem to remember someone posting about buying this card.

Starting to wonder wherever brent described a card ad having “impossible” corners or “ impossible “ centering...maybe this was a hint like his stupid stickers a card had been tampered with??

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

Is the near future here yet?
How long does it take to print a list of cards connected to Gary Moser?

probably at least a month. Imagine 1000 cards 4 times a year for 15 years... That's 1 guy. PWCC is VERY CROOKED. Someone will wipe the glossy white smiles off the faces of those 2 imbeciles