the list (of criminals) is revealed

[Yoda]

After all this horror, intrigue, second-guessing, finger pointing and what else, it just occurs to me that the themes underlying the whole sordid Mastro business are just those old human traits of greed, jealousy and hubris which turned what seemed, when I first got involved outside of my boyhood, from a pleasant, harmless hobby into something that has taken on a life of its' own. My one comforting thought is that, where I am right now, they aren't making any more pre-war cards (real ones, anyhow) and I still love looking at them. John

[Tennis13]

Hello All. I am a New Jersey-based semi-serious collector. I am the owner of a few, higher-end graded 1933 & 1934 Goudeys. I am obviously reading this board with keen interest. I collect with my dad, and we enjoy it -- it's nothing more, nothing less.

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

I have read this document many times the past 48 hours. I have read most, but not all of the replies to this thread. A few things jump out. Yes, there are typos in this document. I believe that's because the filing is from the defense, not the prosecution. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I'm also not as entrenched in this industry as many of you are. I have been Googling as many of the shill bidders to try to unravel and connect the dots across various industries. The vertical integration on the business front is quite astounding, given the audacity that these people have, and the connections they have to other industries! I'm really intrigued to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Thanks for your help.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As has been mentioned several times, the main document people are focused on was created by the government.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As has been mentioned several times, the main document people are focused on was created by the government.

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

[sago]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I was wondering, a few people had posted the links to some of these 2000+ auctions, and the actual products that were auctioned. Do these exist in a database somewhere? Has anyone done the work over the years to identify the exact memorabilia for each of these auctions (maybe DoJ or FBI has published this)? How could I go about identifying each of these auctioned items in a timely fashion?

Hi,
This should get you started. The archived snapshots may contain the auctions listed, and you can plug in the descriptions.

D@v1D
https://web.archive.org/web/20070101...roauctions.com

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

+100
I to feel that you should take a little time off Peter. At least your friend Ron has made one comment and gone away. But you continue to act like you were just "used" You are on the list for better or worse and many people think much less of you now. Remember a Lawyer with a big mouth is no worse than one with a small brain. Lick your wounds and stay quiet for awhile...
Al S@meo@e

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

You continue to post in a thread titled "the list (of criminals) is revealed," where the list it's referring to is one you are specifically named as one of the criminals.

-Ryan

b

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by sago

Hi,
This should get you started. The archived snapshots may contain the auctions listed, and you can plug in the descriptions.

D@v1D
https://web.archive.org/web/20070101...roauctions.com

Thank you for this. I have seen it alluded to -- but not backed up with specific documentation anywhere -- is there any firm documentation that quantifies how much, if any, financial backing Mastro gave during the creation of PSA, and whether he ever owned any equity in that company, and for how long?

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sanctimonious people like you are not going to intimidate me. If you have never made a mistake in your life, then you are a better man than I am, congratulations. To repeat, a friend used my ID to place a very low bid on one lot in one auction and paid thousands to get it back when it did not sell. Nobody was hurt, nobody was run up. Knowing what I know now, I would not have allowed it, and I am sure in the context of today Ron would not have asked. But what's done is done. I've fully disclosed what happened, I have nothing to hide, and I don't really care what you or the other perfect people here say. If you don't like it, put me on ignore, or ask Leon to ban me see where that gets you.

Oh, stop. Now you're just being shilly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

+100
I to feel that you should take a little time off Peter. At least your friend Ron has made one comment and gone away. But you continue to act like you were just "used" You are on the list for better or worse and many people think much less of you now. Remember a Lawyer with a big mouth is no worse than one with a small brain. Lick your wounds and stay quiet for awhile...
Al S@meo@e

x

[Jason]

^^^^ If it walks like a entitled jackass and talks like a entitled jackass. Nice comment on the ask Leon to ban me and see where that gets you. I think a ban from the live auction bst is at least in order.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

See my post to Ryan. I don't need your advice, thank you.

I did but I guess even stupid Lawyers or let me re phrase that stubborn ones dont take anyone elses advice even when its good advice.

[BBSD]

Peter- Have you let Ron or anybody else use your ID to bid in other auctions?

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by elcabron

oh, stop. Now you're just being shilly.

[leaflover]

As one "Flipper" said to the other......"This shilling is killing me."

[68Hawk]

Daniel Enright


It's nauseating.

What I'd like, and what doesn't really ever happen, is for the big players - those directly involved in the activity described, or their buddies who hang with them - like Leon Luckey, to get down and dirty with us and describe the activity in full.
Tell us when, how long, what the pathetic reasoning was, and how you managed to excuse the behavior to yourselves and your hangers on, while completely disregarding the financial, emotional, and ethical toll you handed out to so very very very many???
Did you sleep well at night? Did you not have anxiety, or at least a little throw up rising to think about the hundreds and thousands of people you screwed over? Time and again.....

I find it so hard to believe you're sitting there even now, reading all these posts, and pretending in your personal life you're a good person. When you tell your wife or kids something about life, about how you treat people, what's worth fighting for, what's right or wrong.......and you have participated in violating your fellow man - many who in encounters think you are their friends - of money and time and experiences they had heavily invested in.

Why do you remain silent?
Why can't you step up now and show the loved one's in your lives you can be more than the basest of human compulsions?

I'm directing this part at you Leon, and the other Leon's in this hobby.
You've covered for big time hobbyests for many years, telling everyone not to believe everything that was whispered, that was spilled......

Are you too soiled in all this to not want to come clean.
Are those friends you made in this hobby so much better people than the ones who have been ripped off?

I never post on this forum anymore, not for many years, because I got run off.
Told I was too negative.
That's because I asked for people to act in a way that was decent, that could be respected.
Sure, easy to tell one guy to piss off.

How about the foxes come out and tell us how many chickens they ate while we weren't watching.

[Leon]

Your post is nauseating to me!!


I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?


And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Daniel Enright


It's nauseating.

What I'd like, and what doesn't really ever happen, is for the big players - those directly involved in the activity described, or their buddies who hang with them - like Leon Luckey, to get down and dirty with us and describe the activity in full.
Tell us when, how long, what the pathetic reasoning was, and how you managed to excuse the behavior to yourselves and your hangers on, while completely disregarding the financial, emotional, and ethical toll you handed out to so very very very many???
Did you sleep well at night? Did you not have anxiety, or at least a little throw up rising to think about the hundreds and thousands of people you screwed over? Time and again.....

I find it so hard to believe you're sitting there even now, reading all these posts, and pretending in your personal life you're a good person. When you tell your wife or kids something about life, about how you treat people, what's worth fighting for, what's right or wrong.......and you have participated in violating your fellow man - many who in encounters think you are their friends - of money and time and experiences they had heavily invested in.

Why do you remain silent?
Why can't you step up now and show the loved one's in your lives you can be more than the basest of human compulsions?

I'm directing this part at you Leon, and the other Leon's in this hobby.
You've covered for big time hobbyests for many years, telling everyone not to believe everything that was whispered, that was spilled......

Are you too soiled in all this to not want to come clean.
Are those friends you made in this hobby so much better people than the ones who have been ripped off?

I never post on this forum anymore, not for many years, because I got run off.
Told I was too negative.
That's because I asked for people to act in a way that was decent, that could be respected.
Sure, easy to tell one guy to piss off.

How about the foxes come out and tell us how many chickens they ate while we weren't watching.

[ElCabron]

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

+1. Leon may well be the biggest tool in all the Hobby [ or not ] but there is not a shred of information that he was involved in this.

As for the "I did it once but never again and I didn't hurt anyone" nonsense, it is about as believable as "I didn't inhale".

[nsaddict]

Ryan, you had me laughing out loud literally. Where did you acquire your Phd in sarcasm? Or self taught? I do recall the Dave Kohler situation but won't mention his name!

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Leon

Your post is nauseating to me!!


I never shilled, never had anyone shill for me. Maybe you should direct your angst towards the culprits? I was a victim and, if the other years were seen, I bet I was a victim many, many more times. And do you really think if I did something wrong that someone (like you) wouldn't have turned on me? I sleep well at night, I hope you do with your ignorant statements. I did stick up for some of the culprits, before evidence was shown, and I was wrong and made mistakes in that area. But I never joined in their reindeer games and don't remember being asked to... Once proven wrong then all bets off and I hope they get what they deserve. BTW, I don't just post about it. I did something. I wrote a letter.. Did you?


And, If BY reading the last 500+ posts doesn't help you understand what went on, I don't think I can help you. As for you not posting anymore, why lie? Over the last 3-4 mos you have posted plenty. Whatever you say is fine just quit lying.

I read every post.
What you're saying is that you never overheard, never had the conversation, never knew that many of these people whose business you extolled and lent advertising and brought people to their businesses.....never heard knew anything about what was going on?
If so, then good on you. You did absolutely zero wrong.

But I remember a super early thread I posted on, many many years back, and it involved the chopped down Wagner.
From memory you suggested you knew what had happened, as did others, direct from the source, but were unwilling to call them on the carpet for it, to name names.
I suggested that was as poor as any other action, because to allow the criminal act to continue as mere rumor and mythology hurt many and the hobby as a whole.
You went, phhfft, and told me I could mind my own business.

I have gotten that feeling many times reading this board, that there is a sense that some in the know of things that aren't kosher are willing to keep their hobby friends clean of a thorough dousing in the shit.

You're suggesting you're not that person.
OK. I'll accept it at face value.
Strange to me still you have posted such little thought and opinion on this site on such an important hobby topic.

I also made point to address my post to any other 'Leon' type hobbyists who were big player friends of many who have committed the criminal acts that they have. Not just you.

As to my posting.
I was referring to being an active participant on this board, rather than posting the odd picture of a card or piece of memorabilia in a thread every so often.

For a couple of years I read these boards daily and participated regularly in discussion and opinion, most of which I was the learner of - not leader of. It was fun, but became less so because of the caustic nature of some posters.

Interesting that out of what I wrote, all I see is knee jerk reaction around Leon's name, and little to do with wanting to find out more from any and all who could tell it.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Why in the world is Leon being attacked in this thread? I didn't see his name on that list and I haven't seen him defend anyone that's on it. But I've read plenty of posts about how so and so shouldn't be on the list because there's no way he'd ever do anything like that, only to find out that so and so was guilty. I've been asked to give the benefit of the doubt to guys on the list. I've been told not to jump to conclusions, because perhaps there's some logical explanation for someone's buddy to have bid on 80 of his friend's consignments. Perhaps he just really REALLY liked his collection, right? I've even had to read post after post about the topic of shill bidding by one of the shill bidders named on the list! And the whole time, anyone on the list could very easily come here and defend themselves and tell us about their innocence. But they won't because others are ignorantly defending them, and, more importantly, they are freaking guilty!

If you have issues with Leon, that's fine. In this particular thread, however, I can't understand why those issues would have to come up, other than to deflect form the original title and spirit of the thread. There are people not on the list that I don't like and have ripped me off, but there's no reason to bring them up here. Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.

Anyway, There seems to be a lot of misdirected anger here. It's not difficult to figure out where it should be directed. THERE IS LITERALLY A LIST OF THEIR NAMES!!!!

Let's start there and move on beyond the list after that. But let's not ignore the list or let it fade into the archive afterlife just because the thieves named in it are too cowardly to come here and speak for themselves.

Don't let this blow over and revert back to business as usual again.

-Ryan

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!

[Rich Klein]

Look, Leon has made plenty of mistakes in his life and usually owns up to them pretty quickly. And as he has posted, some of his mistakes are pretty severe

But in this specific case

As a buyer, why would Leon want to pay more than other people because his bids were pushed up. Why would he want to spend more money than he has to, so everyone in Chicago could get a new addition to their houses.

And B&L auctions used software to prevent things like this from occurring.

It's OK to call him out for his mistakes, but NOT OK to call him out for things he was the victim on.

Regards
Rich

[glchen]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

.... Do you see me bringing up Dave Kohler? No. Why would I bring up Dave Kohler just because it wouldn't have surprised me at all to see Dave Kohler on the list? Even if I think the same list could be made based on a different auction house that would probably have Dave Kohler's name on it, there's still no reason for me to bring Dave Kohler's name up in a thread about a list of criminals that doesn't even have Dave Kohler's name on it? Make sense? Dave Kohler. Dave. Kohler.
...

-Ryan

No idea what happened with Dave Kohler, but I thought this was hilarious.

Saying that, I do think that folks can evolve in their thinking over the years. I mean, hey, most of these auctions were ~9 years ago. There may have been some gray area where someone might have thought if they paid the full BP, it was okay to put a "hidden reserve" on their own items especially if they did not know the max bid for other bidders, especially if this only occurred 1-2 times and wasn't something that happened over and over again. I agree that this was wrong in 2007 and it's wrong now, but sometimes it takes a while for that view to become more obvious. I would be more concerned if these folks were trying to defend shilling as something that should still be okay to do.

I don't want to bring in politics, but there have been plenty of cases where at some point in history, there were laws that were not always in the right and most people's opinions supported those laws. However, in time, people's opinions changed and the laws followed. Therefore, I think folks should be allowed to fess up, especially if they say that they know that what they did in the past wasn't correct, and they realize it now.

[x2drich2000]

Maybe I missed it, but has any other auction houses come out publicly and indicated if they will continue to accept consignments/bids from anyone on the list?

DJ

[GaryPassamonte]

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me!

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If you suspect anyone who's not on the list, tie a pile of PSA-graded cards to them and then throw them in the lake - if they sink and drown, then they are innocent.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Watched the Holy Grail with my 13 and 11 year olds just a couple of weeks ago.....wanted to see if the humour still translated.

It did for me!

It will ALWAYS translate! I have nothing better to do, so think I'll watch Holy Grail right now.

I think this thread has been very cathartic (thus, necessary) for the board, but I understand how some got their catharticism taken care of quicker than others and are ready to move on. Too bad - it's a discussion board.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

Hey Ryan, just quickly.
Do you think that list of people exists in some sort of isolation?
That others didn't participate. That others knew and kept quiet?
Your fixation with a list of names is fine, I'm thinking any and all who know more and are willing to tell more should come and do so - regardless of whether they made your list, list, list, list, list......
See, I can do it too!

I'm officially invoking Leon's Law. If a thread goes on long enough, someone will bring up Leon's past and analogize it to the current topic.

BTW, I think 68Hawk is Peter Nash.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

I'm officially invoking Leon's Law. If a thread goes on long enough, someone will bring up Leon's past and analogize it to the current topic.

BTW, I think 68Hawk is Peter Nash.

no way...68hawk is too rational to be peter nice

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

For all you lawyers out there: Why doesn't any judgment in a case like this include restitution. This would both benefit the injured party as well as hurt the violator where it hurts most. Receiving a jail sentence counted in months as opposed to years, and without any restitution no less, doesn't remotely smell like justice.

Good question, the answer to which I don't know: my practice is civil law.

[Dpeck100]

Just curious.

With so many cards experiencing such a spectacular run up in price. Are there a lot of these victims that through market appreciation are no longer losing money?

I would think in a case for example of some of these major HOF stars that what were losses at this time have turned into windfall profits.

[ctownboy]

Ryan,

That reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried when he was roasting Bob Saget on Comedy Central.

David

[Griffins]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Ryan,

That reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried when he was roasting Bob Saget on Comedy Central.

David

Or Snoop Dogg in the Justin Bieber roast.

[Rich Klein]

68 Hawk has told me via PM we have met at a few shows over the years

If so, I can verify it's not Mr. Pete Nice whom I have never met.

Rich

[ezez420]

Removed

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

68 Hawk has told me via PM we have met at a few shows over the years

If so, I can verify it's not Mr. Pete Nice whom I have never met.

Rich

O my, broke into absolute fits lauging at the wording ....."If so...."
I've never been so underwhelmingly verified.
I appreciated your perspective Rich, all the best.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Removed

You should have left that Ed. I got a good laugh. GOD BLESS

[TheNightmanCometh]

I keep noticing it A LOT. How many of you guys are lawyers?

[Mark17]

Having read through this thread with interest, I've decided it's time for me to invite some abuse onto myself by offering my opinions (because I'm sure many will disagree... and I do understand the other side to this.)

First, the list of names doesn't give the nature of the shilling, and that is absolutely critical to determine what actually happened. There are degrees of seriousness here that are quite dramatic, depending on the type of shill bidding that occurred.

Consider these scenarios:
1. A collector is considering consigning some items to an AH, but is of course concerned that the items might end up selling at an unacceptably low price. So, the seller tells the AH that he'd be interested in offering his items, but he'd need to get certain minimum amounts, after shipping fees, consignment fees, authentication fees, and so on. The AH tells him they understand and will make sure he gets acceptable amounts for his stuff, or it'll be returned to him unsold. The consignor agrees, not knowing, caring, or having it even occur to him to ask, what mechanism the AH will use to establish those minimum price levels.

That mechanism could be a reserve, a hidden reserve, an in-house base initial (shill) bid, a bid from an active collector who would in fact like to purchase the item if he could get a great deal on it, and is perhaps considering placing larger bids later on to try to acquire the item, and so on. Bottom line: the consignor may not know which of the above methods will be used to protect his items. He may assume a generally accepted method will be employed - like a hidden reserve, but it might turn out the AH uses a method involving a shill bidder, without the consignor being aware of it.

In this scenario you might see a seller listing multiple items that all employed the same shill bidder... but the consignor was unaware anything wrong was taking place.

2. I'm sure most will disagree with me, but when I am bidding on an item incrementally, it doesn't really matter to me whether I'm going up against a real bidder, a shill bidder, or trying to reach a hidden reserve. I know what an item is worth to me, and I bid accordingly. We aren't talking about putting food on our families' tables here, we're talking about bits of cardboard, pieces of wood (bats) and pieces of old cloth (jerseys.) Sometimes these items also have ink (autographs) on them. If I don't win an item I'd like to add to my collection, I deal with it and it isn't that hard to do. If I pay more than I should, that's on me and I'll remind myself to be more disciplined next time.

I understand that when shill bidders end up being the high bidder and give the impression an item actually sold at an inflated price, it sends a false value to the marketplace. But that also happens when two legit bidders go toe-to-toe bidding on something they both need for their specific collections.

For instance, I recently paid over $2,200 for a 1964 Jim Kaat 1964 flannel. A few years ago, I know someone who paid over $4,000 for a 1962 Twins common shirt. He was very unlucky in that he ran up against someone else who really wanted it badly (I seriously doubt that was a shill situation... no shill bidder in their right mind would've dreamed they could've pushed the price to that level.)

So... did the $4,000 sale tell the market that a Twins common shirt is worth that much? No, I don't think so but in any case that specific price anomaly happened in the marketplace, and that general scenario takes place regularly, naturally, without shill bidders involved.

3. The third type of shill bidding is way, way different. That's when an AH exploits bidders' maximum bids. I do not know if any of the instances on that spreadsheet are of this variety, but to me, IF an AH accessed max bids and then used that info against the bidder, to pump up their bids, that would be, or should be, outright criminal.

Most AH have rules stating that bids are considered legal contracts, and placing a bid thus obligates the bidder to pay for items won. So, suppose an AH sees that a bid is standing at $1,000 but the high bidder has a max bid of $2,500. They could, in theory, use shill bidders to push that up artificially to the max bid, and then require the bidder to pay the inflated price. To me, that's basically theft.

I do not know if any of the instances on that list are of this type. I'm just saying... IF any of them were, then that would be very, very serious.

So, in sum:
1. If a consignor doesn't know shill bidders are being used to protect his listings, I see no guilt on his part, and minimal guilt on the part of the AH. Using reserves would be a better, more transparent, method.

2. If shill bidders are being used during incremental bidding, I understand it's wrong, but if I'm the victim, I'm not too bothered by it. Would I like to get the item cheaper? Of course. But ultimately I need to be disciplined and only pay as much as I want to pay for something. And when the plan backfires on the shill bidder, and they end up eating the consignment fees, buyers premiums, and so on, well, that's justice.

3. If an AH uses maximum bids submitted by bidders to drive up the actual bid, this is, or should be, outright criminal and people should go to jail or be fined. The fallout, as this scandal unfolds, could be that bidders may be reluctant to place max bids if they don't have complete confidence in the AH, and this could really drive down realized prices, especially for those auctions that extend well into the early morning hours.

So, my personal opinion is basically that a list of names without knowing who actually did what, is not sufficient to assume everyone on the list is "guilty," and it certainly is not enough to determine who (if anyone) might be "really, really guilty."

[ElCabron]

Mark17,

Have you ever been a shill bidder or had an auction house or other person place bids on your consignments?

-Ryan

[Mark17]

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

The answers are "no." I don't beat my wife either (only because I'm not married.)

[ALR-bishop]

Well, would you..if you had one ?

[ullmandds]

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !

I agree. I don't see the point in discussing different scenarios of illegality.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What is the purpose of arguing degrees of breaking the law? Does it really matter if you kill a person with one bullet to the head or if you slice them open and let them bleed to death and then cut them into little pieces ? Murder is murder !

Yes, murder is murder, but jaywalking is not murder.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Yes, murder is murder, but jaywalking is not murder.

correct...jaywalking is jaywalking...and murder is murder...just as fraud is fraud...and shilling is shilling. lets not cross streams here.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I wondered if it would be possible to express an opinion here without being personally attacked........... guess not.

You have to expect it. The tough part is not lashing out when it happens.