Doug Allen and John Rogers Cooperated with the Feds!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by brob28

Andy what article are you referring to that mentions the Plank?

This one:

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I assume we got this link off Peter Nash's website I'm sure he reported on this first.

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/arti...-raid?page=all

Classic.

From the article:

Allen's plea agreement included acknowledgment of shill bidding to artificially inflate bidding and detailed three instances of fraud:
...
The sale in 2004 of a T206 Eddie Plank baseball card for $51,518 without disclosing that it has been altered in a way that would lower its market value.

[brob28]

Thanks, I didn't see that one.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Dan, collectors aren't taking the pain because it's a comfort zone and if the crooks left they would feel lost and alone. They are taking it purely to get their stuff, and they will rationalize their behavior until the cows come home.

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

No doubt that's a strong factor in all of this madness.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

The PSA 8 Wagner gets a lot of press about being altered... I had no idea about the PSA 6 Plank that is mentioned in the article.

Was this a well known fraud card also and I just missed it or is this a new revelation?

Was the alteration trimming like the Wagner?

We know the owner of the Wagner has said he won't do anything about the Wagner, but now the Plank has come out also could this hurt PSA in the long run that two major cards are now admitted trimmed cards in PSA numbered holders?

Yes - there's another black-eye for PSA and this Plank card and the Wagner are probably only the tip of the iceberg. I wonder what's become of this Plank PSA 6?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Yes - there's another black-eye for PSA and this Plank card and the Wagner are probably only the tip of the iceberg. I wonder what's become of this Plank PSA 6?

Protect me from the people who would protect me from myself.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you still think that "streak bat" was the real deal? I have no idea, but I remember having doubts at the time when the principal supporting evidence was a leading interview with a 90 plus year old Tommy Henrich.

Yes, there was more evidence besides Henrich's own word that it was a streak bat. Would I stake my life on it...nope. Nothing in this hobby ever surprises me. It seems unfathomable to me that no one ever thought to ask Joe D what he did with that final streak bat...you would think that his old pal Barry Halper would have asked that question.

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Pure and simple: there is a rationalization that 'everyone is doing it', and such rationalization causes the auction houses to do it, and causes collectors to accept it.

Call me naive, but I believe there are more honest auction houses and collectors out there than those committing obstruction to justice,fraud and shilling. I believe it is greed and a disrespect for laws that causes a few individuals and AH's to engage in criminal activity rather than some rationalization that causes these issues which harm the hobby. I find it hard to accept such cause and effect and believe any AH who engages in this type of criminal behavior own the repercussions of their behavior and placing blame anywhere else is misguided.
I would never bid in a Legendary Auction.There is no piece of paper I need that would change that.
Thankfully there are plenty of great auction houses that don't accept this type of rationalization. I hope nobody takes offense with this opinion.
Paul C.

[Runscott]

Hopefully no one else misinterprets my comments. I think they were fairly straight-forward and certainly did not indicate that I feel most (or all) collectors or auction houses are dishonest.

My opinions just offered an explanation as to why the dishonest AH's might be behaving as they do, and why some collectors look the other way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Yes, there was more evidence besides Henrich's own word that it was a streak bat. Would I stake my life on it...nope. Nothing in this hobby ever surprises me. It seems unfathomable to me that no one ever thought to ask Joe D what he did with that final streak bat...you would think that his old pal Barry Halper would have asked that question.

I dunno Dan, you were there and obviously are in a far better position to assess, but between Bushing's self-interest, some aspects of the chronology that just did not add up to me, the "edit" of the Henrich tape, and what we now know of Doug's credibility, I still have my doubts.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I dunno Dan, you were there and obviously are in a far better position to assess, but between Bushing's self-interest, some aspects of the chronology that just did not add up to me, the "edit" of the Henrich tape, and what we now know of Doug's credibility, I still have my doubts.

Rightfully so...they would have also had to have altered the Louisville Slugger records as well, and the edit of the tape would have had to have been masterful, while they did edit out the long pauses Henrich did state the bat was given to him by DiMaggio.

And you know this taping also got me to thinking about the "gypsies" that burglarized Lionel Carter's house. That whole incident has always struck me as "off"...something is not right about that.

[Brian Van Horn]

Please don't make it a minimum security prison. Here is what I hope they find out during sentencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Please don't make it a minimum security prison. Here is what I hope they find out during sentencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4

I'm sure it will be a relaxing environment sort of like a day at the spa.



Lunch should be fun...

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

I'm sure it will be a relaxing environment sort of like a day at the spa.



Lunch should be fun...

Bravo!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Rightfully so...they would have also had to have altered the Louisville Slugger records as well, and the edit of the tape would have had to have been masterful, while they did edit out the long pauses Henrich did state the bat was given to him by DiMaggio.

And you know this taping also got me to thinking about the "gypsies" that burglarized Lionel Carter's house. That whole incident has always struck me as "off"...something is not right about that.

Yeah, posted my reservations about that particular story a couple of days ago.

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Please don't make it a minimum security prison. Here is what I hope they find out during sentencing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzvMLW0ii4

It will most likely be a minimum security prison, or a camp. People like Mastro, Allen, and other white collar, non-violent defendants, who have a criminal history category I wind up in those types of prisons.
At the change of plea hearing, the parties set a date in October for a status. The big fight at sentencing, as I'm sure Jeff will agree, is on the loss amount attributed to Mastro and Allen. that will drive the sentencing guideline range, and in effect, the sentence.
I will say this, the judge will definitely take a negative view of the post-indictment obstruction.

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

It will most likely be a minimum security prison, or a camp. People like Mastro, Allen, and other white collar, non-violent defendants, who have a criminal history category I wind up in those types of prisons.
At the change of plea hearing, the parties set a date in October for a status. The big fight at sentencing, as I'm sure Jeff will agree, is on the loss amount attributed to Mastro and Allen. that will drive the sentencing guideline range, and in effect, the sentence.
I will say this, the judge will definitely take a negative view of the post-indictment obstruction.

Hopefully he gets to meet the "tossed salad" guy.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah, posted my reservations about that particular story a couple of days ago.

I should clarify that the taping reminded me of the Lionel Carter dvd that Mastro made when they were selling off his collection....I haven't watched it in a while, but that whole thing seemed odd to me.

[Runscott]

Why in the world would the government tell Doug that they were about to search Rogers' home?

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Why in the world would the government tell Doug that they were about to search Rogers' home?

Based on one of the articles I read, I think he figured it out as they were asking about the layout, rooms whether he had dogs etc.

[wonkaticket]

Can we all chip in and help John Rogers make his payments please.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/m...miumvideo.html

[calvindog]

Jesus, it gets worse.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus, it gets worse.

So can I count on you at the say $25 dollar pledge level Jeff?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus, it gets worse.

What I don't get is how does a guy with Wagners, less fun Wagners and just Wagners everywhere so many he forgets which ones he sold...fail to pay a little old lady the 85k a month you promised.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

What I don't get is how does a guy with Wagners, less fun Wagners and just Wagners everywhere so many he forgets which ones he sold...fail to pay a little old lady the 85k a month you promised.

Because he knows nothing will happen to him. These guys are garbage and deserve more than they will ever get in court. Two years at camp walk away is nothing for the literally millions of dollars they stole from honest collectors. I vote for a stoning pit at the next national, but that may be a little extreme.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Because he knows nothing will happen to him. These guys are garbage and deserve more than they will ever get in court. Two years at camp walk away is nothing for the literally millions of dollars they stole from honest collectors. I vote for a stoning pit at the next national, but that may be a little extreme.

That's a bit much but this seems about right to me:

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

That's a bit much but this seems about right to me:

Adam,

Thank you! I was trying to find the clip on Youtube, but with no success.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Reading this article below, this type of deal was programmed for disaster by getting the entire collection upfront and paying a substantial balance in the distant future. Even if she gets most of the negatives back, if Rogers copied them all, then he's actually got what he wanted at a fraction of the cost. I hope the family comes out of this OK.

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/arti...yment?page=all

[Peter_Spaeth]

The article quotes an email from Rogers' lawyer saying she advised him not to make the payment. May be more to the story.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Can we all chip in and help John Rogers make his payments please.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/m...miumvideo.html

Must not be that big of a deal...I've read nothing about this on Haulsofshame.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Must not be that big of a deal...I've read nothing about this on Haulsofshame.

Be careful Dan, the last time we said anything. We were exposed in the brilliant investigative journalism that is Peter Nash for attacking an innocent wonderful "Hobby Big Shot" like John Rogers.

It's obvious we were so wrong about John Rogers...I always tip off my innocent pals with nothing to hide about upcoming FBI raids on their businesses while I'm ratting on my other hobby friends. Poor John Rogers just caught in the middle I guess.

In the end I guess I'm just that an internet troll and Lifson fan boy. Because I sure don't have the FBI at my front door, people tipping me off about raids...or arrest warrants out for me like hobby icons Peter and John do...I guess I just haven't arrived in the hobby yet. Well there's always hope...

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Be careful Dan, the last time we said anything. We were exposed in the brilliant investigative journalism that is Peter Nash for attacking an innocent wonderful "Hobby Big Shot" like John Rogers.

It's obvious we were so wrong about John Rogers...I always tip off my innocent pals with nothing to hide about upcoming FBI raids on their businesses while I'm ratting on my other hobby friends. Poor John Rogers just caught in the middle I guess.

In the end I guess I'm just that an internet troll and Lifson fan boy. Because I sure don't have the FBI at my front door, people tipping me off about raids...or arrest warrants out for me like hobby icons Peter and John do...I guess I just haven't arrived in the hobby yet. Well there's always hope...

Ha! I sense another "Sources say..." article is in our future.

[wonkaticket]

Ahhh yes the sources he has so many....

[tbob]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I expect greed from people; what I don't expect is obstruction of justice which strikes at the heart of what this free country is about. That crime dwarfs the fraud in my eyes.

Well said, Jeff.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Obstructing while 'cooperating'; unreal. Nixonian arrogance.

Excellent comparison.

[chernieto]

UH OH !!!

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/catalog.aspx?sortby=7

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by chernieto

UH OH !!!

http://www.legendaryauctions.com/catalog.aspx?sortby=7

Wow! That's amazing. They're stilling running auctions. Who's officially running Legendary now?

[sago]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Be careful
In the end I guess I'm just that an internet troll and Lifson fan boy. Because I sure don't have the FBI at my front door, people tipping me off about raids...or arrest warrants out for me like hobby icons Peter and John do...I guess I just haven't arrived in the hobby yet. Well there's always hope...

Or, Lifson straight up is ratting you out.

Speaking of Nash, how is the Cooperstown Forger investigation coming along?

Da.vid dav,is

[slidekellyslide]

They will do whatever it takes...if that means running an auction from prison then that's what they're going to do.


http://www.legendaryauctions.com/aboutus.aspx

"Whatever it takes.
Legendary Auctions offers generous cash advances for significant collections. And to provide the unparalleled service of a Legendary Auctions event, we invest not just money, but the time your material deserves. We don't cut corners. Our goal is your total satisfaction with the presentation of your fine collectibles. We do whatever it takes. "

[turtleguy64]

they had to run another auction just before the court date.how are the lawyer's bills going to get paid ? with money from the pockets of Joe the Plumber."extended bidding" suddenly takes on an urgent meaning for the accused.need more dough.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Wow! That's amazing. They're stilling running auctions. Who's officially running Legendary now?

I believe they are down to Chekov running the "wessel."

[Fred]

I think the part I found the most amusing was the part where Doug tried to double cross the government by tipping off Rogers and then having Rogers rat him out to the government for doing so. Wow, that had to have been mortifying to find out you've been double crossed by someone you were trying to help out by double crossing the government and then you find out you were being ratted out by the person you were trying to help. So, I guess Rogers made the most of it and Doug is going to get the worst of it.

Truly a sad story. So, what's been the impact on the hobby?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I believe they are down to Chekov running the "wessel."

Oh that's good!

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

I believe they are down to Chekov running the "wessel."

Had to think about that one for a while.

[Davino]

Sounds like some shady business there.

[Wite3]

I will say this...Legendary is taking a hit...as most of you know I am a Phillies collector when not chasing t205s and seeing some of the hammer prices on those lots I was surprised. Many were under what I would have paid a more reputable auction house (lotg or sterling or rea). Some way under. I do not bid in their auctions because of what has happened in the past.

Joshua

[bcornell]

I won the one lot I bid on at a decent price. Sorry, Brian Van Horn et al, I'm unable to be pious when it's on my wantlist. I'll resume my moral outrage now.

Bill

[HRBAKER]

One man's piety is another man's self-restraint.