Piedmont, Liggett & Myers, and ATC: A Clarification

[White Borders]

I believe there might be a misconception about the Piedmont brand, Ligget & Myers (L&M), and the American Tobacco Co (ATC).

Apparently it is thought by some or perhaps many that upon the breakup of ATC in 1911-1912, L&M was formed and was given the Piedmont brand.

Actually, L&M was incorporated in the 1870's as a St. Louis based company.

In 1899, L&M was aquired by ATC, but there is no evidence that L&M ever ceased to exist.

In 1905, the Piedmont brand was created with the manufacturer being L&M.

Reference: Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988

In 1911-12 ATC was broken up into 4 companies: American Tobacco, L&M, Lorillard, and RJReynolds. Piedmont remained with L&M.

Liggett & Myers was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market:
Piedmont
Fatima
American Beauty
Home Run
Imperiales
Coupon
King Bee
Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend
and the cheap straight domestic brands.

P. Lorillard received 15 per cent of the nation's business:
Helmar
Egyptian Deities
Turkish Trophies
Murad
Mogul
and all straight Turkish brands

American Tobacco retained 37 per cent of the market:
Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played.
Sweet Caporal
Hassan
Mecca

R. J. Reynolds received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade.

Reference: Tobacco Timeline: The Twentieth Century 1900-1949


All four of the companies formed from the breakup existed before falling under the ATC umbrella and I believe they all continued to exist throughout their time with ATC.

What I'm still working out is that ATC appears to have been the controlling company, holding a majority in stock of Consolidated Tobacco and Continental Tobacco. In turn Consolidated and Continental appear to have held the controlling stock of most of the other companies. But I'm not sure if Consolidated and/or Continental existed until the breakup of ATC.


Best Regards and Happy Collecting
Craig

[Jlighter]

This is some interesting information. What became of these brands?

[Blitzu]

Ahh, but when the ATC owned LM they also put their names on the piedmont boxes. Only until after LM was formed did the piedmont box bear the LM name. So basically the piedmont boxes with ATC are from the T206 era and the LM boxes were from after.

This is the ATC box...

[Blitzu]

This was the LM non-T206 box

No one I think is disputing that LM didn't exist, but it's name wasn't put on these boxes till after the company was split up.

[White Borders]

Something I just came across to answer my question about Continental and Consolidated:

"1904: Duke forms the American Tobacco Co. (ATC) by the merger of 2 subsidiaries, Consolidated and American & Continental. The only form of tobacco Duke does not control is cigars--the form with the most prestige."

Tobacco Timeline Relevant to Durham, North Carolina

[canjond]

Craig-

Some of the confusion probably comes from my use of the word "acquired". It is my understanding from factory records that Piedmont (as well as other brands that were owned by the ATC prior to the trust dissolution) were distributed in cigarette packs bearing the American Tobacco Company designation. It was only after the trust was split up and certain manufactures re-emerged that cigarette boxes would start to bear different manufacturer marks, such as L&M. Accordingly, I don't believe there are any Piedmont cigarette boxes prior to the year 1912 that would bear an L&M name. Additionally, there is undoubtedly Piedmont cigarette boxes post-1912 that still bear the ATC designation as inventory was used-up before being reprinted with new designations.

One other interesting thing to note with the "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" information posted. As it relates to Piedmont, I believe the date 1905 relates to the start of the brand. I also believe the Liggett & Myers designation relates to who controlled the brand post- break-up of the ATC (I could be incorrect, but I was unable to find page vi to verify (not sure if you have access to it)).

In other words, I'm not sure it's technically correct to say that in 1905, Piedmont was created with the manufacturer being L&M. I actually believe Piedmont was created in 1905 with the manufacturer being the ATC. In fact, I actually believe that L&M and other various brands acquired by the ATC sat dormant, without every producing a product in the intervening years, until the trust was split. At that point, certain brands had the opportunity to be "reborn"... L&M being one of those brands.

Lastly, for reference is a Piedmont pack (with complete tax stamp) bearing the ATC designation on the box.

[canjond]

FYI - here is a bit more information on the continued manufacturing of the former trust brands (Piedmont included) after the dissolution of the ATC:

http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/pa...gett_duke.html

Finally, with respect to the pack in question, I was actually a bit surprised it's a 10-count pack. The packaging looks more akin to 12-count packaging (i.e., the tax stamp would say twelve along the bottom, not ten). Also, the "reg. u.s. pat. off." stamping on the front is interesting. I'm not sure when packagin frst began bearing that language (maybe someone else knows), but that may help better date the pack to a specific year.

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by canjond

In fact, I actually believe that L&M and other various brands acquired by the ATC sat dormant, without every producing a product in the intervening years, until the trust was split. At that point, certain brands had the opportunity to be "reborn"... L&M being one of those brands.

Correct... and after the dissolution each company struggled to stay afloat since each one was only just a name under the ATC Trust. Their divisions for handling certain aspects of the Trust were spread all over the U.S. and now each one had to work completely independent of one another. So many struggled to build the same infrastructure that existed under the Trust.

It's also important to note that L&M wasn't even listed on the dissolution lawsuit as a company that existed under the ATC. That shows that it was just a name and carried no weight after the ATC took it over in the mid 1900's. Read if curious http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/sgc80e00

Jon, I posted an observation on this subject and several other packs a little bit ago on this board and I brought up a question based on Leon's Carolina Brights box. On the side it said it was manufactured by Wells-Wighthead tobacco through L&M.

That leaves me to believe that the box was manufactured after 1911, and after the T206 run. I put it out there to see if anyone had a box of Carolina Brights with the ATC printed on the side of it? Do you have an example?

Thanks,
Jared

[Blitzu]

I also have a theory on how the L&M could exist on the sides of the box prior to 1911...

If you read this page http://www.jimsburntofferings.com/pa...nabrights.html

You'll see that Duke wanted to keep the ownership of a union made cigarette being sold in the south so he may have put and kept the name L&M on the box instead of the ATC to avoid outrage.

Yet I still don't think the box listed above was from the T206 era since it bears the name "L&M successor". That still makes me believe that it was produced after the Trust was dissolved.

Thoughts?


UPDATE: I think I found my answer on the side of one of the T91 cards which were produced by Carolina Brights in 1907... if you look at the pack on the side it says Well-Whitehead Tobacco Co. then underneath, instead of L&M it says Wilson N.C. USA.

That fits inline with the theory above that they left he name Well-Whitehead on the boxes and never printed the ATC name... so it's safe to say that the Carolina Brights boxes with Wilson N.C. USA printed on the side of the boxes with a 1910-11 tax stamp could have contained a T206 card.

See the picture

[White Borders]

Kewl stuff guys - I'm beginning to understand how much effort you've put into this and it's most appreciated.

I've got a "Bright" question: It's my understanding that the Piedmont brand was named after the tobacco producing region in south central Virginia that extended into north central North Carolina. It's also my understanding that the Bright region was also in Virginia, hence the brand Virginia Brights. In what part of Virginia was the Bright region? Did it extend into North Carolina and is that what lead to the brand Carolina Brights?

Thanks
Craig

[tedzan]

Jared and Jon have correctly described the scenario regarding ATC's divesture in 1911. The following pictures are simply intended to illustrate this scenario, as reflected
by the T206 cards....circa 1910 - 1911.

This PIEDMONT pack of mine is the American Tobacco Co. Factory #25, Richmond, VA version (circa 1910). The PIEDMONT Liggett & Myers version (Factory #42) of the
same pack begins in the early months of 1911. Correspondingly, the PIEDMONT advertising on T206's changed to Factory #42 to reflect the anticipated break-up of ATC.

..
.................................................. .................................................. ....... Factory #25 VA (Richmond) ......................................... Factory #42 N.C. (Durham)



DITTO ...... for the AMERICAN BEAUTY brand
..
.................................................. .................................................. .................... Factory #25 VA (Richmond) .......................... Factory #42 N.C. (Durham)




Liggett & Myers Factory #42 in Durham, North Carolina



TED Z

[tedzan]

ATC registered the PIEDMONT brand in the beginning of the 20th Century. By the T206 era, PIEDMONT tobacco had become the "flagship" brand of ATC.
It was producced at the large tobacco plant in Richmond, VA. PIEDMONT tobacco products were distributed throughout the South; and, as far north as
Philadelphia, PA.





TED Z

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by canjond

One other interesting thing to note with the "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" information posted. As it relates to Piedmont, I believe the date 1905 relates to the start of the brand. I also believe the Liggett & Myers designation relates to who controlled the brand post- break-up of the ATC (I could be incorrect, but I was unable to find page vi to verify (not sure if you have access to it)).

Hi John, I was able to find another copy of "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" that contains Page VI.

It says that the Manufactures "... are generally the most recent manufacturer of the brand."

Best Regards,
Craig

[White Borders]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your posts. I noticed on the Fact 42 postcard it says "Home of Chesterfield". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chesterfield wasn't an ATC brand and L&M introduced it shortly after the ATC breakup? Am I starting to catch on?

Best Regards,
Craig

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your posts. I noticed on the Fact 42 postcard it says "Home of Chesterfield". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chesterfield wasn't an ATC brand and L&M introduced it shortly after the ATC breakup? Am I starting to catch on?

Best Regards,
Craig

Craig

The origin of the Chesterfield brand is 1873 (Drummond Tobacco Company of St. Louis). It was named after a County in Virginia.

In 1898, James Buchanan Duke (ATC) bought the Drummond company; and, Liggett & Myers became part of Duke's trust in 1899.
ATC continued to produce Chesterfield cigarettes until the ATC divesture in 1911, in which this brand became an L & M product.

What I'm not sure of....is why the Chesterfield brand was not a part of the T206 scenario ?


T-Rex TED

[Rob D.]

Ted,

Which building is the tobacco plant in the Richmond postcard?

Thanks.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Which building is the tobacco plant in the Richmond postcard?

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

Thanks, Jason.

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The origin of the Chesterfield brand is 1873 (Drummond Tobacco Company of St. Louis). It was named after a County in Virginia.

For what it's worth, Chesterfield is also a city in Virginia, south of Richmond, north of Petersburg.

[canjond]

Originally Posted by White Borders

Hi John, I was able to find another copy of "Directory of Cigarette Brands, 1864-1988" that contains Page VI.

It says that the Manufactures "... are generally the most recent manufacturer of the brand."

Best Regards,
Craig

So this makes sense then that L&M would be listed. I believe L&M controlled Piedmont (after the break-up) until the brand was discontinued.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

For what it's worth, Chesterfield is also a city in Virginia, south of Richmond, north of Petersburg.

Jason

Very true. Thanks for identifying the old Factory #25 in my postcard of the Richmond waterfront on the James River. I should've placed a pointer to identify the building.

Incidently, the postmark on this p/c is dated Oct 8, 1908, Richmond, VA.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Thanks for identifying the old Factory #25 in my postcard of the Richmond waterfront on the James River. I should've placed a pointer to identify the building.

Thanks,

TED Z

No worries, Ted. I figured that you meant to do that.

Rob

[Blitzu]

Here's a price list from 1897 for Drmond brand tobacco. You can Chesterfield's came 10 to a pack. This list is one of my favorite Drummond pieces.

Ted, good question regarding chesterfield, but here's a theory... As you can see by the prices even in 1897, Chesterfield's cost 2 times per cigarette than their Drum line. Maybe Chesterfields were targeting an upper class that were turned off by baseball cards or other advertisments. Maybe they consider it their "luxury" line of cigarettes.

[Blitzu]

Here's the back...

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Blitzu

Here's a price list from 1897 for Drmond brand tobacco. You can Chesterfield's came 10 to a pack. This list is one of my favorite Drummond pieces.

Ted, good question regarding chesterfield, but here's a theory... As you can see by the prices even in 1897, Chesterfield's cost 2 times per cigarette than their Drum line. Maybe Chesterfields were targeting an upper class that were turned off by baseball cards or other advertisments. Maybe they consider it their "luxury" line of cigarettes.

Great stuff there, guy. And, your theory is as good as any. I grew up in the 1940's thru the 1950's. My Dad and Uncle exclusively smoked Chesterfield cigarettes.
They frowned at any other brand.


Anyhow, thought you would like to see this.






TED Z

[Blitzu]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Great stuff there, guy. And, your theory is as good as any. I grew up in the 1940's thru the 1950's. My Dad and Uncle exclusively smoked Chesterfield cigarettes.
They frowned at any other brand.


Anyhow, thought you would like to see this.






TED Z

That's pretty cool right there. Nice!!!

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

I'm pretty sure it's the brown one on the far right with the smokestack. That area is known as Tobacco row. I believe the old tobacco factories in Richmond have been converted the into condos/apartments. Here's a link to some of the properties. I have no clue whether any of these are the original Piedmont factory.

Hi Jason,

I don't believe the brick building with the smoke stack, on the right of the postcard, was American Tobacco. The view of the city on the postcard would have been from the Manchester side of the James river looking back across at downtown Richmond. The major tobacco factories were located in the Shockoe Bottom area of the city which isn't pictured in the postcard. As you said many of the old factories and tobacco buildings in this area have been converted into apartments/lofts/condos.

[t206blogcom]

Hi Tim,

I respectfully disagree. Manchester is south of Richmond on the other side of the James. This picture is as if you're looking N/NE across the James River. You are correct that the majority of the old tobacco factories were located in Shockoe Bottom, which is on the far right of this postcard and within site from Manchester.

Jason

[Abravefan11]

Jason-I happened to be in the right place for this today so I just stood on the southside of Mayo's Bridge (14th Street, Manchester) and looked back at the city. This is very close to the vantage point of the postcard. Using historic buildings as references for sight lines, Shockoe Bottom is not pictured. I can add some pictures later that will better help illustrate this.

[t206blogcom]

Tim - I look forward to the pictures!

[Abravefan11]

Jason - There are two railway bridges running from Manchester across the river to Richmond. I believe pictured on the postcard is the one just north of 14th Street.

On the postcard two easily identifiable Richmond buildings are the State Capitol building and the old City Hall. The tallest building in the photo is the new City Hall, which will help as a reference point.




On the following map I placed red sight lines for the postcards image using the buildings and railway as reference points. Of course we can move the vantage point north or south on the Manchester shoreline, but it won't have a drastic effect. That is unless we move it so far that the image itself would be completely different.

Further south on the map is a red box. This is the location of tobacco row in Shockoe Bottom. Based on the site lines I believe you will see how it's not possible for those buildings to be pictured in the postcard.



Here is a photo I took today from the 14th Street bridge. Notice it is looking across the river turned slightly north. The new City Hall and railway are visible in similar positions as on the postcard.



This is a photo from the opposite side of the bridge looking back at tobacco row. Notice how much further south down the river the angle is. The tallest smoke stack on the right still has Lucky Strike painted on it.



One of the most iconic Richmond Landmarks is Main Street station. If the postcard image included both the Capital and tobacco factories in the Bottom, Main Street Station would be right between the two. Anyone ever traveling north or south on 95 through Richmond has driven right past it.



I have not definitively identified the address of ATC Factory #25. Finding any documentation that uses this factory tax number is difficult. The period addresses for ATC factories in Richmond that I have found are located within the red box on the map.

I do love the Richmond postcard and want to do some more research on some of the buildings pictured in it.

[t206blogcom]

Tim - Good pictures and research. I see what you mean about the angles and how Shockhoe Bottom is out of view. If that is in fact the Piedmont factory in the postcard, then it wasn't in Shockhoe Bottom.

With that said, I just recalled a conversation I had with a long term resident of the greater Richmond area. There's a hole in the wall card shop in Williamsburg that I frequent a few times a year. The last few times I was there, the owner and I talked at length about t206s. During one of our conversations, he mentioned the old Piedmont factory was torn down years ago. I had completely forgotten about that conversation until my wife mentioned it (we were talking about this during dinner and she was with me when the shop owner was talking about the old factory).

I have no proof his comments are accurate or not, but he seemed knowledgeable. If his comments are accurate and if the Piedmont factory was in Shockhoe Slip and not Shockhoe Bottom, then the brown smoke stack and building in Ted's postcard could have been the Piedmont factory.

I wish we could find some sort of property records or address of the original Piedmont factory. It would be interesting to see what's in its place today.

[Abravefan11]

Jason-I stop in that card shop in Williamsburg once every few months just to check in. Next time I'm in their I'll be sure to ask the owner about it.

I've been working on locating Factory #25 off and on for a while and this has given it a shot in the arm. I've come across some new information (new to me anyway) tonight that may be a step in the right direction. It cold lead to the factory being pictured in Ted's postcard, but I still don't think it would be the brick building in the lower left. We'll see where it goes.

[t206blogcom]

Tim - The shop owner's name is Guy. He used to go to the show in Chantilly, but hasn't been in years. I guess my secret little card shop isn't as secret as I thought.

Keep us posted if you unearth anymore information.

Do you live down in that area? I'm in NoVa (Loudoun County).

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by t206blogcom

Keep us posted if you unearth anymore information.

Do you live down in that area? I'm in NoVa (Loudoun County).

Yes, I live in the Richmond area. I have family that live in Loudoun County as well.

The original brick building you thought may be a tobacco factory wasn't at the time the postcard was produced, but it would become a tobacco building eventually.

According to a magazine article and a few other sources, it was built in 1901 for the Union Envelope Company. Last to occupy the building was R.J. Reynolds. After they left the building remained vacant for years. Renovations are currently converting the building into apartments. A before shot of the building from a few years ago, and another I took today are below.

The smoke stack was part of the power plant owned by the Virginia Passenger and Power Company. Also still standing.

This research has led to the location of Factory 25. More on that soon when I have it all together.

[t206blogcom]

Great stuff Tim! When you find factory 25, I'll have to make a trip down to Richmond to check it out.

[Mountaineer1999]

What ever happened with this? Was this in fact the Factory 25 building? Have any of the factories been identified and are they standing today?

[t206blogcom]

I was down in Richmond a few months after these posts and took a segway through the old tobacco rows, but didn't take any pics. I haven't had the time to do any further reasearch.

Perhaps Tim continued his research?

[Matvoo]

I wish one of these factory has scraps and all the rarities
That be super cool
Ill just keep dreaming

[t206blogcom]

Originally Posted by Matvoo

I wish one of these factory has scraps and all the rarities

The cards were printed by the American Lithographic Company in New York, shipped to the various factories and inserted into the packs at the factories. Therefore I doubt any factory would've had print scraps. But I understand what you mean. It would be an awesome find if something like that actually existed.

At one point in time, before the factories were converted into other types of structures such as apartments/condos or torn down, they could have had extra cards sitting around. We'll never know.

For more information on the American Lithographic Company, I refer you to these two Net54 threads:

http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=151290 (This one includes modern pictures of the ALC building in NYC.)

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...raphic+Company

[Matvoo]

Thanks for the info Jason

[Mountaineer1999]

Thanks for the info and links Jason, a good read and a great history lesson.

[ZachS]

In New Orleans there was the W.R. Irby Branch of Liggett & Myers. I'm guessing this would be Factory 3 Dist of LA?




The building is still standing today... it's owned by a lawfirm.