This looks interesting indeed

[danmckee]

How could this have happened? A non paying bidder from the catalog auction maybe?? The auction just ended though.

Ok , got my response from my long time friend Bill Huggins

"House of Cards was the winning bidder in the auction. Is this the first item you have seen on ebay under House of Cards that was in one of our auctions? HOC wins stuff in almost every H&S auction. We pay the same buyers premium as everyone else. We do have a slight advantage in shipping charges!!!"



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-B...item4ab40abec4


http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=41648

[Leon]

Hey Dan
Sounds like you have a good question but what is the item?

[frankbmd]

I concur.

[danmckee]

ok I reposted

[Fred]

Readers may not understand the thread unless they know the assocation between H&S and House of Cards.

Edited to add name: Fred C()w1e$

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Fred

Readers may not understand the thread unless they know the assocation between H&S and House of Cards.

Id be one of those readers...

[glchen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Bill Huggins owns both the auction house (Huggins and Scott) and the card shop (House of Cards), which also sells on ebay.

[ScottFandango]

very interesting indeed

[ScottFandango]

i'd hate to be bidding against HOC in a H&S auction!

[slidekellyslide]

At least they don't hide it...not sure what difference it makes when he says they still pay buyer's premium...I'm sure they are separate businesses, but it's still the left hand paying the right.

[FrankWakefield]

It is wrong... the left hand will know whether to bid again or leave something alone. It's wrong for both hands. It should stop. Or folks should stop bidding...

[Jaybird]

It certainly makes me uncomfortable.

How is this not shilling? Bid an item up by HOC and then backoff or end up owning it and put it on ebay. Either the item gets bumped up to a higher price and they win or it gets bid up to a higher price and they win by getting a higher premium from the winner.

Not great...

[honus94566]

WTF? OK I am not going to be bidding at huggins and scott anymore. This really makes me mad. I have bought a few things from them and spent a significant amount of money. I have sent them an email requesting an explanation.

I just don't know about this hobby. As much as I enjoy it I am just getting sick of the dishonesty and fraud.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

At least they don't hide it...not sure what difference it makes when he says they still pay buyer's premium...I'm sure they are separate businesses, but it's still the left hand paying the right.

Looks like a pure shilling account....

Wow and they admit this?

[Griffins]

This is just plain wrong. Not the first time I've heard of something there that has raised an eyebrow, and I'm disappointed.

Anthony Nex

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

Looks like a pure shilling account....

Absolutely... and they have the audacity to claim "We pay the same buyers premium as everyone else"

Except for the general public pays the premium to you, while you are paying it to yourself.

This.is.so.wrong.

I am sure your consignors might not mind, but they might start thinking twice when realizing that H&S will lose BIDDERS over this. Fewer bidders = lower realized prices for the consignors. I for one am not going to do business with H&S and their shilling account anymore.

[Bugsy]

This is incredibly unethical!!! He profits on items where he bids and doesn't win the item. This is the same a shill bidding. I will have to think long and hard about ever doing business with them again.

[danmckee]

I spoke to Bill on the phone tonight, he guaranteed me that they cannot see who is bidding or how much. It is just a misunderstanding.

Like if he or one of his employees bid, they really couldn't see the bid history or the ceilings, they would just be like another bidder.

Dan

[Runscott]

Serious question: Not that this issue shouldn't be discussed, but it's gotten me curious - are there any auction houses that pass the 'integrity' standards of this board? I'd like to see someone's list of 'the good guys', and then see if any of them survive the scrutiny of other board members.

Looking at the list of auction houses that I bid have bid in, the Burkes are the only one I know of that have never been ripped apart on here before.

Edited to add: I've ripped apart several myself, no not trying to be a hypocritical

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I spoke to Bill on the phone tonight, he guaranteed me that they cannot see who is bidding or how much. It is just a misunderstanding.

Nice try.

No, it's not a misunderstanding at all. We understand exactly what is going on. You can try to spin this, but in the end a pig with lipstick on is still a pig.

Reality: The house account that is "bidding" is driving up prices for the other bidders.

Reality: "they would just be like another bidder" umm.... no. They would NOT be just like another bidder. Because they are not paying the buyer's premium like everyone else (OK, they are, but if they are paying the premium to themselves, they are not really paying it at all. Them claiming they are paying it is pure baloney.) So for a house account bidding, the playing field is not level. The house account is getting essentially a 17.5% discount on all items, since they do not pay the premium. Definitely dishonest and unethical.

[danmckee]

The Burks are as honest as can be, there auction just doesn't picture items very well. No backs pictured and minimal descriptions.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I spoke to Bill on the phone tonight, he guaranteed me that they cannot see who is bidding or how much. It is just a misunderstanding.

Like if he or one of his employees bid, they really couldn't see the bid history or the ceilings, they would just be like another bidder.

Dan

Misunderstanding? Bullsh*t! It does't matter. The fact the he or any employees are bidding is a complete conflict of interest and incredibly unethical. Let's say I enter a max of $1000 on a item and it is sitting at $400. He could jump in and bump it to $600. He is making a profit on the buyer's premium from that $2000 bump. None of the other bidders are in a position to generate revenue from bidding.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Nice try.

No, it's not a misunderstanding at all. We understand exactly what is going on. You can try to spin this, but in the end a pig with lipstick on is still a pig.

Reality: The house account that is "bidding" is driving up prices for the other bidders.

Reality: "they would just be like another bidder" umm.... no. They would NOT be just like another bidder. Because they are not paying the buyer's premium like everyone else (OK, they are, but if they are paying the premium to themselves, they are not really paying it at all. Them claiming they are paying it is pure baloney.) So for a house account bidding, the playing field is not level. The house account is getting essentially a 17.5% discount on all items, since they do not pay the premium. Definitely dishonest and unethical.

Well said! This is my point exactly.

[Leon]

Everyone needs to have their full names in their posts in this thread. Either put them in, delete your comments, or I will put it there. Just the rules and I really wish I didn't have to say this so often. Nothing personal. (say whatever you want to, just put your name by it)

btw, you can put a period or hyphen in your name to keep it out of Google searches...this is not a punitive thing, it's so people know who others are when they are giving opinions of someone or a company.

[ksabet]

As a former employee of Huggins and Scott about 5 years ago, I just wanted to say that in my two years there, Bill, John Scott, Josh Wulkan and the gang showed nothing but the highest standards of ethics I have been around. Many times I witnessed them take a loss in order to make a "hobbyist" happy. These men respect the hobby and the collectors and its hard for me to see (despite what it looks like) them looking to cheat anyone.

Kiya Sabet

[Jaybird]

Even if they are not attempting to cheat anyone, by bidding against their customers, they ARE cheating them.

edited to say: Maybe I'm not seeing the other side of this one. I don't want to keep railing... someone help me understand how this can be ethical. I say this with all sincerity and honesty.

[danmckee]

WOW that is cool, how long did you work there? I don't remember ever meeting you. Dan

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by danmckee

WOW that is cool, how long did you work there? I don't remember ever meeting you. Dan

I detect a bit of sarcasm, but to answer your question it was around 2005-2007.

I am not debating the topic you brought up, just the fact that I believe these gentlemen to be stand up guys.

[danmckee]

No sarcasam whatsoever, I think that is neat that you worked for them and odd that I never met you since I am there several times a year.

Hey, they wouldn't hire me so you have one up on me.

Dan

[painthistorian]

Say it ain't so Dan, Say it ain't so!

I always felt Huggins and Scott were in same category as REA & Sterling & Clean Sweep regarding running a top notch & ethical auctions...

I am very surprised about this and would love to hear a response from Bill or Josh as they have been very good to work with, it does seem a conflict having a retail company that you own bidding on their own auction's material...

[danmckee]

I forgot to mention that you are very welcome to debate what I have posted, I think I have posted strictly facts.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by danmckee

No sarcasam whatsoever, I think that is neat that you worked for them and odd that I never met you since I am there several times a year.

Hey, they wouldn't hire me so you have one up on me.

Dan

They kept me in the basement most of the time. No seriously my desk was in the basement, kinda like Milton. I wrote for the catalog and traveled to shows with Bill.

Its really a matter of trust, so there is no debate. I trust that despite him bidding on items for his store, that no shill bidding takes place as they do not see max bids. Obviously we live in a society where trust comes at a premium especially in this hobby so there is no sense in me trying to convince you as you are not in a position to trust as I am.

[glchen]

I just wanted to say that I don't think Huggins and Scott is alone in doing this. Other auction houses have also been known to do this. I can't remember the thread, but I thought I remember that one of the auction houses gave the excuse that if the lot was going for a really good value, they would also look into purchasing the lot for themselves.

I think the auction house with the best integrity would again fall back to REA. No hidden reserves, no employee bidding, no employee owned lots (unless fully disclosed), etc. I think that they are still the gold standard.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I trust that despite him bidding on items for his store, that no shill bidding takes place as they do not see max bids.

It doesn't matter whether they know the max bids or not, it is still shilling. His participation in the bidding is raising the final prices and therefore increasing Huggins & Scotts' profits on those lots.

Consider this. If I were to bid on my own eBay listings, I don't know what the high bidder has entered, but my participation would still alter the final price.

It is a clear conflict of interest to participate in any bidding when you stand to financially benefit from the outcome of the sale. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

[benchod]

Originally Posted by ksabet

As a former employee of Huggins and Scott about 5 years ago, I just wanted to say that in my two years there, Bill, John Scott, Josh Wulkan and the gang showed nothing but the highest standards of ethics I have been around. Many times I witnessed them take a loss in order to make a "hobbyist" happy. These men respect the hobby and the collectors and its hard for me to see (despite what it looks like) them looking to cheat anyone.

Kiya Sabet

Care to explain how they took a loss to make a hobbyist happy?

Craig. Lipman.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by benchod

Care to explain how they took a loss to make a hobbyist happy?

Craig. Lipman.

No not really

[Cat]

Sometimes in my stream of consciousness totally unrelated thoughts flow through my mind........ Anybody seen Lichtman lately?

[MikeU]

Originally Posted by danmckee

How could this have happened? A non paying bidder from the catalog auction maybe?? The auction just ended though.

Ok , got my response from my long time friend Bill Huggins

"House of Cards was the winning bidder in the auction. Is this the first item you have seen on ebay under House of Cards that was in one of our auctions? HOC wins stuff in almost every H&S auction. We pay the same buyers premium as everyone else. We do have a slight advantage in shipping charges!!!"



http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-B...item4ab40abec4


http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-b...l?itemid=41648

What auction houses do absolutely none of the following?:

1. Sell their own items.
2. Have hidden reserves.
3. Mechanisms/ways to get to hidden reserve.
4. Bid on items in their own auctions.
5. Let employees bid on items.
6. Let employees sell their own items.
7. Let employees bid on their own or colleagues items.
8. "Prepare" cards for grading.

[Fred]

First off, I'm a bit dumbfounded about this. For obvious reasons common sense dictates that you shouldn't bid on/up items in your own auction. That's not to say I believe the guys at H&S / HOC are dishonest.

Originally Posted by MikeU

What auction houses do absolutely none of the following?:

1. Sell their own items.
2. Have hidden reserves.
3. Mechanisms/ways to get to hidden reserve.
4. Bid on items in their own auctions.
5. Let employees bid on items.
6. Let employees sell their own items.
7. Let employees bid on their own or colleagues items.
8. "Prepare" cards for grading.

Mike,

I don't have an issue with an auction house:

1. Selling their own items
6. Let employees sell their own items
8. Prepare cards for grading (assuming they are not altering them).

I do think its unethical for an auction house to:

3. Mechanisms/ways to get to hidden reserve.
4. Bid on items in their own auctions.
7. Let employees bid on their own items

I think it's poor business practice to:

5. Let employees bid on items.
7. Let employees bid on their colleagues items.


One of the most recent auctions I bid in had a pretty neat item. I bid on it the last day and expected it to get jacked up in price (which I would have been happy to pay). My bid was never increased. I'm comfortable with that auction house because of that.

[glchen]

OK, one other auction house that does something similar is Heritage. The link to the thread where this was discussed is here: Link

According to that thread, Heritage states that what they do is "placing house bids" and that this is distinct from shilling. From that thread, they state:

"1) Placing house bids in one’s own auction. This is what Heritage does. We place bids on material at the price we would be willing to pay if someone came up to our table at a card show wanting to sell. This is done a week before the auction closes, long before the competitive final bidding has even begun. We bid in our competitors’ auctions as well. We win very little because we only bid wholesale prices. "

I do not want to misquote or take Jonathan's (from Heritage) statement out of context, so please see the link about for his complete statement on Heritage's policy. It is Post #9 in that thread and further clarified in Post #44.

I do not know if what Huggins and Scott does is the same or similar. However, I did want to point out that what they do is not unique. There are many other auction houses that also have an online store. I do not know what their policy is on bidding on lots in their auction. I think REA is the only auction house with really impeccable ethical standards, but I'm not an expert in this area. calvindog would know much better than I do here.

[jmk59]

Auctions are unique in that you can be a valuable customer without ever having spent a dime with the AH. This is because as long as you bid, you raise the overall level of prices and interest. Even if you don't win, someone else has to pay more than they would have if you had not bid. Non-winning bidders are as important to final prices as the eventual winners.

So an AH bidding on its own auctions may do more to help the bottom line when it loses an item than when it wins. That's why it's wrong for an AH to bid in their own auctions, even if they have some intent to try to win and the bidding is done through a technically separate business.

Not that I will stop bidding in H/S.

Jo.ann K!ine

[Matt]

Originally Posted by glchen

I just wanted to say that I don't think Huggins and Scott is alone in doing this. Other auction houses have also been known to do this.

I believe Hunt Auctions bids on items with a house account if they believe the sale price is below market.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by ksabet

They kept me in the basement most of the time. .

This was funny, though I know what you mean as I know the set up there well. But still a funny statement if you don't really know the set up there.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Matt

I believe Hunt Auctions bids on items with a house account if they believe the sale price is below market.

Hi Matt, Hunt's always had a bidding house account at their live auctions. They were there live like I was and couldn't see who the phone bidders were. Not that it is any better and not that H&S can see who is bidding or ceilings left, but it does seem a bit strange for the need to do this. Just set higher minimums maybe?

Dan

[honus94566]

So which auction houses don't engage in shill bidding?

REA it seems...?

What about Goodwin, Legendary, Mile High etc?

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by benchod

Care to explain how they took a loss to make a hobbyist happy?

Craig. Lipman.

There was one guy that they decided not to shill.

Jeff-Priz ner

[dstraate]

If the related businesses wanted to "transfer" items, buy them outright, or trade inventory, that is fine.

In an auction, it is totally unacceptable for all of the reasons that been previously mentioned. It's truely sad that there's so much dishonesty in the business. I'm blessed to be surrounded by children in my line of work, where the dishonesty generally centers around how strong their dad is, or the existence of unicorns.

[Fred]

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with an auction house bidding up items because the auction house doesn't want to sell an item below what they feel is a fair market value. Why don't those stupid SOBs that practice this either get out of the auction business or start the lots off where they feel they don't have to SHILL the frigging price up on the general public.

Also, hidden reserves are BULL $HIT. Why bother with a hidden reserve? Just place a minimum starting bid on the item. If it doesn't sell then the geniuses should figure out that their assessment of fair market value may be a bit off.

Funny story - A while back I saw a card that I've been wanting for a LONG time (on feebay). To me the dealer had a price that was a bit too high so I just kept watching the card. Then I saw the card exchange hands because another dealer had the card and it was at an even higher price than before (on feebay). I continued to watch the card and it didn't sell. Just recently the dealer had an auction and this card was in the auction. There was just one bid on the card. I placed a bid with a much higher ceiling bid, expecting more bidders to jack up the price. To my surprise the card received NO further bids and I picked iup the card for less than half the price that the first dealer was asking for it. I trust that auction house!

[tbob]

I have bid on and won auctions with both Heritage and Huggins and Scott and have never had any problems, but this is troubling news.
I would second that the Burks never cause me any concern with their auctions nor do Lew Lipset, Dave (Bagger) or the often lamented loss of Barry Sloate's auctions.
I bid frequently in Goodwin's auctions and haven't ever had a problem with them, do they keep employees etc. from bidding in their auctions?
Bob M@rquette

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by tbob

I have bid on and won auctions with both Heritage and Huggins and Scott and have never had any problems, but this is troubling news.
I would second that the Burks never cause me any concern with their auctions nor do Lew Lipset, Dave (Bagger) or the often lamented loss of Barry Sloate's auctions.
I bid frequently in Goodwin's auctions and haven't ever had a problem with them, do they keep employees etc. from bidding in their auctions?

Barry, Lew, and the Burke's were my favorites. Hunt, Heritage and Legendary have each given me great customer service when I had even small issues.