Happy Halloween Show your Ghosts!

[onlychild]

Brian, I've never heard the term "shaving" in regards to removing colors; always understood that to mean micro-trimming or sanding.

When cards are put through a series of certain chemicals some colors wash away faster than others. The dark green (as seen on Mordecai), browns, and certain blacks hang on longer, while others may fade rather quickly. Why? I don't know. More/less or spot specific ink can be removed depending on the amount of detail desired.

Anyways, here are some examples on why I think the Mordecai card is questionable. I made these and dozens of other altered cards years ago. The t206 below had the background with just the image removed but I decided to keep going. To my knowledge, none of my alterations are in the hobby.

Kevin Saucier

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shammus

It would be nice if someone came to the table with a reason as to why the Mordecai is "questionable". Perhaps, something a little more definative about the Mordecai's history that makes it fall into this category? Right now, the argument I'm hearing is "card shaving exists....so therefore the Mordecai must be shaved".

Regarding the card's history, I think we've already established that the e93 has been in a holder for the past 10 years (at least) and it was with Jim B all this time after he bought it in a Lipset Auction. From what people are telling me the artist in question was someone within the past few years?

Does anyone have an example of a shaved card they could post? Then we could at least have something to compare the Mordecai to? The silhouette on the Mordecai looks a little too good to be the result of shaving off part of the card but I'll definitely keep an open mind if someone can post something similar.

Also, has anything been documented on "card shaving"? This is something I've never heard of so it would be helpful to read up on it....

Brian, I am with Kevin on the Mordecai. For me it's just a gut feeling by the way it looks. Yes, it's been around for years but so have many bad (and good) ghostly cards . Also, why is it still residing in a GAI holder? Have you or anyone else (you know of) ever had another grading company look at it? It just doesn't look right to me. But I am not saying I am 100% on it one way or another....

[shammus]

Kevin, thanks for explaining that makes a little more sense now. I had no idea that you could remove color from cards with precision that way. I thought the only real method was soaking, which sort of takes all color away consistantly and with no accuracy.

Leon, the card has been in the same holder since Jim bought it back in 2004. Link is below. I'm not a big fan of sending cards in for grading, have never had an account with SGC or PSA, and probably haven't sent a card in for grading in close to a decade. I guess I could consider it now though since circumstances seem to call for it.
http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/2004...ll/graded/176/

A question though, if this is done with chemicals and not by shaving or sanding the color away, how can it be done to match the curves of the card precisely? Mordecai's silhouette seems to be perfectly shaped still.

Also for the colors themselves, I figure the brown started with a dark green color pass for the background and then added a layer of yellow to lighten the green to the point where it's the bright green you see normally on the e93 Brown. But if you're removing color with chemicals, how does the chemical seek out only the yellow from the paper but leave the dark green? His sleeves also had the lightest grey out of all the spots where you saw a grey or black but you still see a lot of the light grey remaining, where as areas of darker grey, like the "C" on his chest, are completely gone.

Final question, did this ever come up on the board before or discuss it with Jim? Seems like I saw Jim post pictures of this card several times over the years but nobody ever said anything about it before now.

[mrvster]

been waiting for the young ghost brown om rosetta stone of t206 to appear

one of my favorite scrap

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Brian, I've never heard the term "shaving" in regards to removing colors; always understood that to mean micro-trimming or sanding.

When cards are put through a series of certain chemicals some colors wash away faster than others. The dark green (as seen on Mordecai), browns, and certain blacks hang on longer, while others may fade rather quickly. Why? I don't know. More/less or spot specific ink can be removed depending on the amount of detail desired.

Anyways, here are some examples on why I think the Mordecai card is questionable. I made these and dozens of other altered cards years ago. The t206 below had the background with just the image removed but I decided to keep going. To my knowledge, none of my alterations are in the hobby.

Kevin Saucier

Hey there Kevin,

Yes... these cards are well known(to me anyway). Scraps & Removing Color has always been of interest of mine. 15 or so years ago, Scraps, Misfits, Freaks etc... were a good part of my collection. I'm curious to see, if You have one, or know of one other, an Example of one that would be iN the same order as Jim's "Mordecai Brown". Mostly, Colors can be removed by chemically neutralizing the specific ink color. Removing a combination of a few colors is not possible without damaging the card, also the chemical solvent would then bleed into the other area of the cards color-litho(In this case, outside the players figure). Even carefully removing one color at a time, would be a very lengthy process... and in the end the card itself would show noticeable damage. Removing the Black ink is the hardest![

This is why I am so confident that Jim's Card is "Scrap" and not made after the factory to look this way.

Just a little disclosure! I grew up New York and one of my friends, their family owns a major printing company. The Family Business is 3 generation's running. My Friend is a little older than me, I believe that he's 57. In the past 10 or so years we have discussed the possibilities of the ink process and in~depth color removal. He has been very Helpful, Helping me to understand what can and can't be done.

And of course, all of this iS, my humble opinion

Oh... Brian, I do believe that this was brought up involving Jim's Card, But I don't remember Jim being involved in the discussion... When I have a bit more time, I'll see if I can come uP wit the Archives... oR maybe someone else can help us out?

[onlychild]

Denny, will try my best here. It's not the colors that are missing insomuch as what colors are left; the stubborn dark green and shades of blacks.

It is easier to remove a combination of ink then it is to remove a certain color. In some cases it is not possible to my knowledge. I have been able to remove just the light blue and/or just the flesh tone. It has to be closely watched and checked on by the second. More than one chemical or mixtures are required at times. In all the card stock and remains perfectly intact. If it looks off, a simple re-tone fixes it.

Here are some cards made previously that come close. I tend to get carried away and keep the process going without documenting the progress but this will give you an idea. Guess, I could always find a non-sport and make another to match the Brown but it's a process and my interests are elsewhere now.

Kevin

[irishdenny]

Thanks Kev,
I do believe that we both can see & understand that the "Process" takes its toll oN the Card and the evidence of the "Process" is left behind leaving the Card Damaged...

My Belief iS... that if I had your cards iN hand and the Mordecai along side of them I would be able to determine that the Mordecai iS "Real"(w/o any Card Surface/Layer damage).

I do follow along as to what Your conveying and I just have the notion that the proof iS & would be iN plain sight... iF the Cards were iN my hands(or yours!), the answer would be easy to determine. At this point... I Still Strongly see the Mordecai to be "True Scrap", as opposed to being "Worked"...To me, It Looks More Real than NoT!

I do humbly believe that the latest cards that you scanned, show me enough that I believe that I can tell that they have been "worked".

I do understand & respect both Yours & Leon's position/opinion oN the Mordecai Card. However, from what I know... The Dating of the Mordecai Slabbing, & from its scan(although one might say its really hard to see & tell!?), I still believe that its True to the "Scrap" Nature.

Thanks fir taking the time to share & discuss the issue.
And if I at All offended You iN Any Way...
"Please Forgive Me!?"
I Sometimes wear my emotions oN my Arm(so to speak), my passion is & remains towards the Hobby... I'm certain that the idea that it was "JimB's Card" that was iN question... & I'm sure that I went further than I should of, my emotions got the best of me!

"So I do Hope that You'll Forgive me!?"

Sincerely!

As Always...

[Sophiedog]

Weimer Ghost
Ghost1.jpg

Ghost2.jpg

Ghost3.jpg

Ghost4.jpg
Available in BST

[ecRich]

The ghost of Al Simmons is in a Philadelphia theater.

[Jobu]

I thought it would be fun to bump this thread for Halloween.

[Jantz]

Here is two-for-one.

Thanks again Mike P. for adding this one to my collection.

[Luke]

Cool card Jantz! Who is on the left?

Here's my McLean-Evans:

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by LukeLyon

Cool card Jantz! Who is on the left?

Here's my McLean-Evans:

Lena Blackburne

Another Net54 member pointed it out to me some time ago when I bought it.

There is another Myers ghost that matches up like this.

[irishdenny]

Boo!!!
Here He iS Jantz...

[kdixon]

Wheat signed ghost.

[atx840]

Let's see some spookiness

[carlsonjok]

It isn't pre-war. In fact, it doesn't even exist in meat space. But, a number of years ago, I photoshopped a Creature from the Black Lagoon card, based on the 2004 Fleer Greats of the Game set.

[brianp-beme]

The ghosted T206 Lentz, wearing an E94 McGraw costume.

Brian

[scooter729]

Not many days more appropriate to post this one than on Halloween!

[stutor]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Not many days more appropriate to post this one than on Halloween!

Looks like SGC got ‘tricked’. How do you slab a ‘white border’ t206 as a ‘brown border’ t205????

Great card by the way!!!