Graded cards

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Posted By: bigfish

Anyone else ever buy cards off ebay graded, get them, and become sick to your stomach? I am wondring if I should buy only SGC graded cards? Tey seem to be the most accurate. PSA is all over the map you never know what your getting. Any Thoughts?

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Posted By: jay behrens

are you buying cards sight unseen? I'd hate to think of the reaction you have when I post scans of my cards

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: bigfish

Not buying sight on seen but see the scans on ebay and they look ok. When the card comes I am puzzled by some of the grading errors by psa. I guess I will use my loop to look at the computer screen.

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Posted By: Rick

Try raw cards ...

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Posted By: Brett

i always see those old PSA slabs that are too big for the t206s and E cards. I would not want my cards loose like that, where they can move to easily, and get bang around.

I think SGC slabs look better than the rest. the black surrounding the card makes it look nice. GAI are nice too, but not as good as SGC :D

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I would never buy a card site unseen just because it's graded. Yes, we still get "graded" surprises because the seller (in many cases) will not disclose all of the little imperfections because they figure it's graded and that should be sufficient. It's irritating to get those surprises. I've sold a few graded cards onm ebay and I always disclose those little graded surprises because I don't want people to feel like they've had one pulled over on them.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Gee, this subject hasn't been discussed in such a long time. I'm glad we can finally revisit it.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Noel

Brett,

I have several of those PSA cards in oversized holders and it is troubling. Do they really not see the inherent problem with this? I called their "customer service" and told them that i wanted about 20 cards switched over to the proper size holder. The excuse i got was that they had "run out" of the proper sized holders and these were the best they had. They wanted to charge me $10 per card for an "upgrade" in service. After talking with two supervisors later and being on hold for nearly 45 minutes they finally agreed to fix the problem without the charge. I had emailed them twice previously expressing my concern and got no response. I am at a loss for the QA process that allows this to happen to $5,000 and up cards and they seem genuinely confused at my agitation to it. Any thoughts?

And kudos to you Fred for disclosing those little surprises. PSA, SGC or whoever, the seller should list any "surprises" that are not readily available from the scan.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I was going to say that PSa's total lack sustomer service should not be a surprise to anyone, but I forget that there are new people reading this board all the time and are unaware of the significant problems that exist with PSA. Fortunately I am not into the resale end of this business, so PSA will never see any business from me, but I do understand why people send their cards there. They want top dollar. Once enough people get fed up with PSA's crappy attitude and start switching their cards to SGC and GAI, only then will PSA start thinking about provide anything that resembles sutomer service.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: BcD

let US be the judge!

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Toby, what were the specfic problems with PSA graded cards that inspired you to post about them?

From my experience with them, the biggest surprise when buying PSA cards can be paper loss. I have purchased several 4's and 5's that have paper loss on the back, and it has been a rather unpleasant surprise as I try to avoid paper loss at all costs, even on the blank backed cards.

With the volume of cards PSA grades, I can certainly understand a very occasional mislabeling of an American Caramel as a National Caramel or missing a light crease here and there, but grading a card with obvious paper loss a 4 or 5 is pretty incompetent.

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Posted By: NickM

I've seen a Ramly SGC 60 with significant paper loss on the back, and I have a 1955 Bowman SGC 84 with a blatant back miscut.

GAI had to buy back on eBay a certified autograph card (cut signature) of Pete Maravich where the seller had written 1/1 on the card before it was slabbed.

Every grading company makes mistakes.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Yes they do, but it's how they deal with those mistakes that is true measure of the company. In PSA's case, the emporer is wearing no clothes but most people won't tell them and if someone does, they just ignore them.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: bigfish

I am bringing up PSA's lack of quality control for the 15th time here because they seem to make so many mistakes. I recently was looking at a collection of over 100 PSA graded pre war cards. The seller was asking high end SMR for many of the cards. I felt bad for him because so many of the cards were overgraded and not worth his asking price. I am sure he paid big bucks for them and is kind of stuck with them until prices rise. In the end, I think you are much safer buying SGC graded cards. Atleast you know what your getting. They seem to make fewer mistakes. Just my opinion though.

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Posted By: Bob

One of the Supreme Court justices (Black?) when asked about poronography said he couldn't define but "he knew it when he saw it." I feel the same way about a card graded "excellent." I recently saw a seller sell about 30 Diamond Stars on eBay and all were PSA 5s and about 5 were what I would call "excellent." About 20 were "vgex" and the remaining 5 were vg although they didn't have any creases. PSA tends to be all over the place on vg, vgex and ex cards.

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Posted By: BcD

and we will educate you!

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Posted By: Rick

think percentages.

PSA has graded over 9 million cards ...they are the most trusted brand for a reason.

They have also been grading cards the longest, which will cause some small deviance from the norm over time.

If PSA has gotten just 1% of their cards misgraded etc ...it would look like a lot...but they do by far a fantastic job considering their volume.

Most of the cards are graded within their criteria ...which is sometimes vague, understanding of their technical grades is very important.

There are some extremely biased boardmembers here.

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Posted By: David Vargha

This are some extremetly biased boardmembers here, way more than on CU's boards.

No way! Please give me just ten such examples.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Joe_G.

SGC actually outgrades PSA up to 2:1 on some prewar sets (Old Judges for instance) yet PSA has far more errors out there. And by errors I include mis-labeled, over-graded / inconsistent grading, and worse yet, graded when it should be authentic etc. So the argument of PSA grading far more doesn't ring as true when you only consider pre-war, yet the errors are numerous.

There was a time when PSA had a monopoly on grading with strong backing from both collectors and dealers alike. It took awhile, but it now appears to me that SGC has become the favored grading service.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: David Vargha

It took awhile, but it now appears to me that SGC has become the favored grading service.

If we are talking in terms of number of monthly submissions, nobody at SGC would even make such a claim.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Rick

where exactly is SGC leading PSA?

They have a small niche in pre war cards, and its small.

The 3 big sets in pre war t-206, cracker jacks and goudeys are dominated by strong prices from PSA and popularity.

OJ's are a very thinly trade set in which just a few players could upset the populations dramatically.

SGC is not a new company, they are veterans, they are happy to be a mirror company to PSA ....they take no risks and do not invest in the future.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Again, there are ,some pre-war sets where SGC has graded twice as many cards and continue to receive & grade cards at better than a 2:1 ratio vs PSA. Perhaps I'm incorrect, but to me that suggests that SGC is favored at times. This is quite remarkable when you consider what a monopoly PSA did and still does have.

If you are talking post war, then I'm sure PSA could cover a 100:1 spread.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: David Vargha

SGC is favored at times

No disagreement from me on that.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Mike U.

"where exactly is SGC leading PSA?

They have a small niche in pre war cards, and its small."

Cabanas,

I would not call SGC pre-war respect a niche. If you are the most respected pre-war company, isn't it just a matter of time before less educated consumers can trust them with Albert Pujols cards?

As far as post war is concered, which is the perceived inaccurate weakness. Take a look at the attached link.

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1340142&an=0&page=0#Post1340142

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Posted By: Rick (calleocho)

FYS.

Anyone can win a match on ebay ...better picture, better seller ...moon cycles...etc

On a consistent basis PSA will indeed outsell any other grading company ...exceptions for rare and desirable cards, undergraded examples and particular areas of collecting interest.

I have a lot of SGC cards in my collection, a few GAI.

I am a collector , i do not invest in cards , do not have an axe to grind or anything like that.

But it does gets old to hear the constant bashing PSA.

Its a daily occurance to see someone write "thats why i only collect sgc" or " sgc is a far superior company" etc

all the while being critical of those who collect PSA, calling them sheep, blind etc.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Did you used to have a swaying palm tree icon on CU? I always liked that icon.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Mike U.

"Anyone can win a match on ebay ...better picture, better seller ...moon cycles...etc

On a consistent basis PSA will indeed outsell any other grading company ...exceptions for rare and desirable cards, undergraded examples and particular areas of collecting interest.

I have a lot of SGC cards in my collection, a few GAI.

I am a collector , i do not invest in cards , do not have an axe to grind or anything like that.

But it does gets old to hear the constant bashing PSA.

Its a daily occurance to see someone write "thats why i only collect sgc" or " sgc is a far superior company" etc

all the while being critical of those who collect PSA, calling them sheep, blind etc."

Rick, Take a good look at the thread. It documents EVERY single post 1948 SGC sale vs. PSA. Every single one! SGC is crushing PSA in post war head to head sales. It is not because of bad sellers, poor scans etc. There is nearly 250+ rolling examples.

I would say there is not a lot of PSA bashing on this board. People do like to point out the bad examples, but I think it has been a relatively open forum for everyone's mistakes e.g. SGC's Cobb and Doyle etc. Certainly not as much BGS, SGC or GAI bashing as the CU board.

In any case, I have a lot of respect for what PSA started and how it changed the hobby landscape with the set registry. I do prefer SGC, but I have certainly submitted to PSA and have purchased many of their slabs over the years.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

You are certainly correct on the mainstream issues Dave, PSA has graded more cards. As you stated, SGC seems to be doing well with some of the more obscure or difficult sets. For example, SGC is grading more 19th century, many of the caramel sets, and even some of the obscure T cards like Fatimas (T200 & T222). I just did a quick sample of the set registries and noticed more SGC content for N172s, N300s, E93s, E94s, E98s etc.

But look at T206 entries and PSA has far more cards graded, perhaps even more than the set registry would suggest with 90 registered sets for PSA vs 51 for SGC.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Rick (calleocho)

vargha.

I still do ...we miss the tornado.

the blue letters give an edge overhere but nothing matches "heh"

FYS.

I looked at the results.

A very lively debate on those boards...anyways

Your data is messed up.

You Dont account for the half grade in SGC scale when comparing it to PSA.

there are some cards , the cheap ones that if you were to factor the shipping costs the PSA examples outsells the SGC counterpart.

Many times you overlook, the sellers feedback, in one case you compare a PSA seller that has less than 10 + feedbacks VS a sgc seller who has 1000's.

also as many buyers here will attest to ...the lower grades are probably the grades with the most differencial when it comes to eye appeal that determines prices. Many of the comparisons are made in these grades.


When PSA beats SGC it usually does it by a large amount whereas SGC barely beats PSA

countless oversites.

Bresdo has an amazing website that could easily track prices and probably could be used for comparison...with other sales outside of ebay and with months of data.

Lets say a HOF from the 60's ...Mantle, Mays ...a high grade like near mint.

that would be an interesting comparison.

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Posted By: bigfish

Well said. I agree with you on all of your points. Who is awarding PDP's for this site? Leon?

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Posted By: Joann

I am not a big fan of graded cards - if I get a PSA 1 I break it out no matter what. But I do have to admit that once in awhile, the sales value comes to mind just in case I ever do want to sell a card. When? The only time I really think about sales value when deciding to break something out is when I have a PSA card. With a decent grade. And a big spot of paper loss on the back.

I don't like to think of myself as a "money" focused collector instead of a "card" focused collector. But I do have to admit that there have been a few times that I've opened a package with a PSA card, looked at the card and thought "Welp. There's a card that's never coming out of the holder because it will never see THAT grade again." I've never once thought that about an SGC card, or even GAI.

I couldn't care less about grading companies, except that I kind of like the SGC all-black look. But I do have to say that I've had different reactions, from the gut and pure first reaction, to PSA versus other graders.

Joann

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Posted By: Mike U.

"FYS.

I looked at the results.

Your data is messed up.

countless oversites."

The variables you discuss become insignifanct as the sample increases as their will be examples on each side (big dealer vs. small dealer, bad scan vs. good scan, high shipping cost vs. low shippng cost etc.). The data is not messed up or an oversite, it is simply head to head comparison for for actual realized prices on every single SGC card that sells on eBay that has a match in the eBay database (2 Week History).

If you can not respect real data, then your comment about the dislike for PSA bashing is a bit humorous, almost sheepish:>)

In any account, you like PSA and I like SGC. No amount of real data is going to change that.

Happy collecting.

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Posted By: Rick (calleocho)

FYS.

The second card you on your list that you picked for comparison was a PSA 8 vs sgc 8.5 Sosa rookie card.

the SGC version sold for 4.25 and the PSA sold for 3.54

however ...once you add shipping the SGC card got 4.25 plus 2.50 for a total of 6.75

The PSA card got 3.54 plus 3.75 shiping for a total of 7.24

Not only did you choose a higher grade SGC card, you also failed to notice the shipping charges.

yet somehow you percieved this as SGC getting more money?

No offense but its a crappy analysis.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Sigh.

-Al

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Posted By: jay behrens

PSA the most "trusted" company in the business? LMFAO!!! Give me a break. The biggest reason the are still in business is the set registry. If they hadn't come up with that, I am willing to bet that PSA would be just another slabber. People keep submitting cards to PSA because the registry people still pay stupid money for PSA slabs.

Personally, if I was SGC, I'd be offereing free crossovers to anyone with sets on the PSA registry that are 50% complete or more. I'd be willing to bet you'd see and bunch of people abanding ship real fast. If SGC really wants to dent PSA's business, they need to make some sorrt of offer that will get PSA registry people to leave for SGC and free crossovers would be would really hurt PSA.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Rob NYC

I buy the card, not the slab. I just have to avoid those 2nd-tier companies like PRO and GEM.

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Posted By: Ricky Y

I don't have any preference per say since I too buy the card vs the holder...I'm sure most if not all here do too. The biggest problem I have with PSA is their tendency to lump the F-G cards into one...I have seen absolutely horrible chewed up cards getting the same grade as decent ones with honest wear. I don't see credibility in that secnario at all. SGC at least has more categories in their grading tier so you don't see that.