Troubling Auction Purchase

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Posted By: Brian Goldner

Recently, i was the high bidder on a couple of pre-war graded lots, from a relatively well known auction house.

At the end of last week, i received the cards, and upon inspection, i am of the opinion that both items have been tampered with.

What i am suspicious of, is holders being broken open, and cards being switched.

Though these weren't high profile items, and not a large amount of money (~$450) changed hands, it is still a troubling thing to possibly see happening, in the hobby.

I spoke with the auction house today, and they didn't seem terribly interested in fixing things.
They stated that there was no refund on graded cards, and if the cards were tampered with, they didn't know who did the tampering.

Well, i can't say that their answer was entirely unexpected, as i've been around the hobby long enough to see that train coming down the tracks.

All i can say is that i know in my heart, that if indeed these items were tampered with (and i believe that they were), i know it wasn't me, who did the dirty deed.

Gentlemen, if there is anything that can undermine the confidence of buyers in the hobby, it is the potential for corruption, via this possibility, or a variety of others.

In any event, i hope that my current dilemma, is extremely isolated.

Best Regards, Brian

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Posted By: joseph

If you paid by credit card you do have an option of having them contact the seller and having them fight it out. I use to pay by check but since then I have learned to use a credit card for that added protection. Live and Learn!

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Posted By: Bob

Brian- Any chance you'll let us know who the auction house was?

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Posted By: Brian Goldner

Best not to disclose that information (sorry about that Bob).

I know that everybody watches their purchases pretty closely, but i just wished to offer a reminder, that this kind of stuff happens once in a while.

Hopefully, it is a rare occurance.

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Posted By: cmoking

"They stated that there was no refund on graded cards, and if the cards were tampered with, they didn't know who did the tampering."

This should not apply in your case since it isn't the grade you are questioning...rather, you are claiming it is fraud. Whatever auction house it is, they should pay attention to this.

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Posted By: Steve

I feel for you Brian as you are one of those rare people in the hobby that cares about a card aside from grading. The auction house ought to pre-screen consignments for altered inventory, even when graded, but we all know that rarely happens in this hyper-competitive environment.

The real issue is with the grading services. We all know (or should know) that a very high percentage of 7, 8 and 9 tobacco, candy and gum cards have been altered. I was glad to see this come through in a few threads on the board but until the grading services get true religion about authenticity, these things will be the rule and not the exception.

It really is nice to see someone look at something outside the prism of grading...

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Posted By: FYS

Does the auction house have a return policy?

How about getting confirmation on your suspicion from the grading company. I would speak to the auction house about this intent and make an agreement on the return, if your fears are quantified. I would assume the auction house could honor a return based on the grading companies assesement. Meaning if the grading company agrees the slabs have been tampered with, then you should be entitled to return the cards. If the grading company does not agree there has been tampering, then you should have a good piece of mind and should have no reason for a return. In this same vein, the auction house should pay the grading company for the review, if the slab is found to be tampered with and you should pay if they are found not to be tampered with.

I can not fathom why an auction house would not return the cards to the consignee if the slabs were confirmed to be tampered with by the slabbing company.

I understand the no return on graded card policy, but I think the spirit of this statement does not apply to tampered slabs. It is more for buyers remorse because of a potential weak card for the grade.

I really do not think it should be that complicated of an ordeal to sort. Unfortunate and a nusiance, but not something that is incermoutable by any means. A lot of the ease of the situation will depend on the auction house and grading company you are specifically dealing with. If you do not have luck, you should send an e-mail to a key board person for help. Several people on this board have a log of unofficial clout that could help your situation.

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Posted By: FYS

"The real issue is with the grading services. We all know (or should know) that a very high percentage of 7, 8 and 9 tobacco, candy and gum cards have been altered." - Steve Verkman

Steve,

Is that why you have no high grade tobacco, candy or gum cards in your July 06 Clean Sweep Auctions Catalog? Meaning, you do not except these cards on consignement, as they are likely altered?

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Posted By: Bob

Don't kill the messenger. Steve was only giving his opinion and it is one I, and a lot of collectors, share.

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Posted By: FYS

I also agree with the staement. I just wondered if Steve felt strongly enough not to accept high grade cards on consignement. From his July catalog, it appears that he may actually not accept high grade material. That may be a coincidence or he is a man of great virtue.

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Posted By: Jay

I think you guys are crazy if you believe that a large percentage of high grade slabbed cards in SGC or PSA holders are altered. I would think that the percentage is extremely low. And lets not forget why grading became popular and accepted--because alot of dealers and auctions routinely graded cards several levels above where they should have been graded. Ring a bell?

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Posted By: Jason

If this has been covered, I didn't see it and I apologize in advance, (and please just steer me to it), but if not...
What are signs-to-look-for of holder tampering?

I have never "liberated" a card before...
thanks
Jason

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Posted By: leon

We obviously have been talking to different Sr. graders and 20-30 yr hobby veterans. IF you think most of the PSA 8 and 9, 100 yr old cards, are legit you are entitled to your opinion. I have only been doing this for 9 or so years (quite addictedly though) and, based on what I know, I would respectfully disagree with you.

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Posted By: edacra

I don't remember ever seeing pristine cards back in the 80's.

Were they all hiding in private collections? There are much more experienced collector/dealers here who have handled far more cards then I could even dream of.... does anyone recall seeing the wealth of high grade material before the 90's?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Edacra makes a good point that there certainly were less high grade cards around in the 80's. Further, just how did all these PSA 8 and 9 cards remain so pristine for 100 years? Certainly nobody was taking good care of them for all that time.

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Posted By: Steve

Every catalog that we run has a different theme. We have some PSA 8 Diamond Stars in our September 29 auction that were from the original owner and are amazing. AND YES, at the National, we turned down a graded 55 Bowman Mantle 9 from an unnamed grading company because we felt it was altered.

We sell high grade, authentic, graded cards in our larger auctions three times a year - Steve

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Posted By: Bob

I don't always agree with leon (we often agree to disagree) but I feel leon is 100% right on the money with his comments in this thread and I agree completely. Anyone who doesn't believe a substantial number of prewar cards residing in high number holders haven't been altered needs a reality check.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I will always remember a phrase that was made to me years ago from an auction company owner when I asked this question. "Do you guarentee this card to be un-altered even though it is in a holder"... His reply was "JC, let me ask you this question. If you got a card from anyone and looked at it, and found nothing wrong with it would you be happy with it?" Yes was my answer.. Then I said, if I found out later that I missed something like corners being built up, or a crease that came back after being pressed out for it to be graded, I would not. His come back was "that is why we use third party grading and all the sales are final on them" Which did not really answer my question if they would stand behind a card if the grader missed something as well.

It was very common practice in the 70's and 80's to fix and alter cards. Here are a few names of some surgeons.

Dr. Pavletic
Dr. Hager
Dr. Arnesties

There are more Doctors in the hobby, but these are the ones I know first hand...

JC

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Posted By: John S

I also have been very suspicious of all the high grade cards that have surfaced over the last five years. I believe that steam, stretch, and trim have a lot to do with that. A NRMT T206 from 1989 would probably equate to and EX today. I know that grading standards have tightened since the late 80's and early 90's, but all these high grade cards (and I am sure that a few legit ones exist) could not be found. I remember going through countless binder pages and stacks of t206's and buying the best examples of commons that I could find about fifteen years ago. I recently had a couple graded....SGC 60.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think it all depends on your eye. I had several nasty fights with hobby veterans who sold the ex as near mint before slabbing. I find that my grading eye is very close to what SGC uses. I used to pick up many cards in 8-9 caliber--postwar. T and E and N and D and etc. No way. They did not exist. Some undoubtedly surfaced as the hobby matured. I've seen enough prewar finds and been on hand for enough of them, however, to know that ex or maybe ex-mt is the best you can hope for from them. No way to I believe that the 8s out there are nearly all original.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm sure there are people skilled in the art of paper restoration who use their talents to create mint looking cards without proper disclosure. Obviously, if their work is that good, it will be almost impossible to detect.

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Posted By: John S

Its sad Barry...hobby veterans know that these "chop-shops" must exist somewhere because we dug for these high grade examples years ago. Again, they were almost impossible to find but seem much more common today. I stick to EX and lower cards because they are less likely to have been altered and the higher grade examples have become cost-prohibitive for the middle-class collector.

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Posted By: Steve

great insights in the last bunch of messages. As a dealer, I can say from experience, what many of you already know, which is that the hottest cards at shows are well centered 6s and 7s that dealers buy at full SMR or more. You don't have to be a fortune teller to guess what happens...

Also, it is worth asking who is it that consistently comes up with super high grade pre-war cards? While Mastronet certainly gets their share, it seems most of this stuff ends up in the hands of people WITH VERY LITTLE hobby experience and history, something I always thought was rather odd..

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

many of these were trimmed to a stopped sign shape and perforated over time to the shape. One sausage -head
said that through a source of one that collected back then
that they had games of who could throw the cards at the wall the hardest , gimme a break, THIS WALL NOT CAUSE SO
MUCH PAPER LOSS ON AN EVEN AMOUNT THROUGHOUT THE CARDS ALL
FOUR CORNERS, it simply doesnt take a brain surgeon to
figure on most cards that have been tampered with.

I have seen several off sized caramels that have passed the
grading services that are uh.....nevermind. Englebert-
Humperdink could have done a better job grading !!!

Remember, as long as there is money to be made !

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

I don't doubt that some of the points raised in this thread are valid and that there are cards out there which have been altered or cleaned up (in the case of removal something foreign to the card such as pencil marks or glue).

I think the skepticism is healthy but I also don't think the percentages are nearly as high as some are suggesting in this thread. Many legitimate, unaltered high grade pre-war cards are out there either in slabs or still in private collections.

I will offer my own experience as an example of how some of these cards are out there and have survived.

I am lucky enough to have a couple of fairly high grade caramel sets and also lucky because I know the provenance behind the cards. They are not all 7s, 8s and 9s but there are a good number of cards which did survive in that condition.

To help answer Barrys question as to how they survived in that condition? Well, I guess luck is certainly part of the equation but the owner from whom my father and I obtained the cards obviously cared about them right on up into his 70s before he passed away.

The caramel sets were neatly stored in Piedmont and Sweet Cap T206 boxes (along with T205 and T206s) and those boxes were neatly stored within Cigar boxes and then those Cigar boxes were stored in a larger box which was spared from moisture and light over the decades.

To answer another question that was raised, where were these cards in the 70s, 80s, 90s? They sat protected in their boxes in a Cedar Chest at my parents home and were pulled out from time to time and handled with the utmost care.

So, while I agree with the premace that a certain portion of high grade cards have been altered or cleaned up, I know from experience that cards from that era can survive and still exist in that grade.

And, despite the beliefs of the PSA Hall of Fame collector of the year from a past thread, I also believe that there are still a good number of these cards out in private collections which have not been graded as of yet and probably never will be graded until those collectors pass away and the cards change hands.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...then I would have a very hard time buying it.

If people want to feel like their collection of PSA 7 T206 cards are all unaltered, that's their choice. If I were them, I'd spend the time and dollars it would take for SGC to take a look at them, too. And, if I was a PSA guy, I'd just send them back in to PSA after SGC got done taking a look.

If you are comfortable that your 7's are really 7's, then you should have no problem submitting them once or twice to the two leading grading companies. They won't hurt the cards (and even if they did, that's what insurance is for). But you won't do that, because you are afraid of what the grader might say next time.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Being very active in the 80s, I too wonder where all these high grade examples are coming from. You can pretty much blame Jim Copeland for the rash of trimming that altering that has gone on when started paying $100 for NM t206 commons in the late 80s. I would also be very leery of any high grade Goudeys as I know of a "doctor" that was buying up low grade Goudeys to grind up for pulp to rebuild cards. I saw his work and I couldn't tell the card was doctored. I am sure most, if not all of these cards now reside in holders.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Brian Goldner

The auction company decided to call back yesterday (i returned their call today), and offered that i return the items in question, so they could be sent to the involved grading service, to check for evidence of tampering.

Initially i agreed to this, but upon further thought i decided against doing so.

Here is why:

1) IMO, IF resubmitted, the possibility seems remote that the grading service would admit that their holders could successfully be tampered with. And in the event that they reholdered the cards with same grades, i wouldn't be comfortable with them being in anyone's graded collection, including my own.

AND

2) Upon my initial agreement to these terms, the scans of the items in question, seemed to disappear from the auction website. I then attempted to recover scans of other items (some of which i won, and some i didn't), and had no problem recovering any of them.

Strangely enough, after i called them back to inform them of my reconsideration, i went back to the website, and i then had no problem recovering the scans of the items in question.

Would this scenario make you feel uncomfortable?
It sure does me.

In the final analysis, no way do i send back material across state lines, that is in my opinion tampered with, and whose scans would no longer appear on their website.

IMO, that is a recipe for disaster.

No thank you, i'll take the loss.
Thus, i now consider this matter closed.

In closing, thank you everyone for your kind words and concern.
Also, thank you to those who offered advice.
All of it was taken into consideration, in how to approach the settling of this issue.

Best, Brian