A Troubling Hobby Developement

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Posted By: Eric B

Based on those numbers, it looks like about 40% of T206's have been altered to give a higher grade. Similar to what other poster have been saying based on gut feelings without collaborative evidence.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

The suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post. EDITED TO ADD Statements along the lines of X said Y was aware and insinuated that Z was also aware are not terribly persuasive either.

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Posted By: Joe Tocco

I'm not familiar enough with the two issues say if it's viable, but the discrepancies in the population of T206 vs. T213 could be partially explained by submission bias. If a common T206 PSA 1 sells for $25 and a common T213 PSA 1 sells for $100, you'll see a higher percentage of all T213's submitted than T206's. Basically what I'm saying is, the pop reports are not necessarily indicative of the spectrum of grades existant in each respective set.

Other partial explanations include "finds," factory back-door sets (like the $800k Cracker Jack set), and storage bias (if T213s were traditionally thought to be junk, they may not have been protected as well as T206's). Also, resubmissions could be a factor. If the difference in price between a 1 and a 2 is $50, you won't see many 1's get resubmitted. But you'll see a lot of 5's get resubmitted in hopes of a $1000 value gain if it gets slabbed a 6. I have no doubt that resubmissions are more prevalent in more popular sets.

Of course, there are some alterations out there too .

Joe

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Posted By: FYS

"The suggestion that somehow it is Barry's responsibility to expose the T206 Wagner, and that he is letting down the hobby by not doing so, is ludicrous. At the same time, I think people who assert as a fact that a card of that stature is trimmed (not saying it isn't, I have no idea, only know the rumors) should not only provide their supporting evidence but should put their real name on the post."

Barry started the thread, I just thought if he was truly concerned, he is a visable enough person that would garner enough respect to write such an article. I in no way said it was Barry's resonsibility or a dissapointment to the hobby if he did not do such a thing personally. It is ludicrous to think that I did.

I am a nobody, but I can tell you that Bill Heitman stated on these very boards that the Wagner was trimmed. Leon has stated on these boards that he is 99% sure the card is trimmed based on input he has received personally. I have also received input from well known and respected people that are 100% sure that the card is trimmed.

My name is in my e-mail address, which is attached to all of my posts.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Joe, I tend to agree with you in part, and wouldn't imply that a large percentage of altered cards are slipping past the grading services. I think SGC and PSA do a great job weeding out a lot of the "chop shop" type of alterations that happen out there. More sophisticated restoration work done by a professional may be more difficult to detect - I don't know, I'm not a grader - but I'd find it hard to believe that there's a professional restorer out there, working on EX-MT Gabby Street cards.

You're also correct in that any night of the week, there are dozens upon dozens of low-grade raw T206s on eBay. Many of those types of cards have never made it into slabs, and likely won't, because most are relatively plentiful and the value is such that grading fees are unnecessary.

Also important is the definition of "alteration", which is something that's been discussed here many times. Soaking gunk off the back of a card, to many, is not considered an alteration. Same goes with removing stuff that wasn't on the card in the first place (i.e. pencil marks). So perhaps due to the popularity of T206 in general, people are more likely to soak residue off the back of a card and get a 4, rather than a 1, to realize a higher selling price.

Who knows? I just find it interesting.

-Al

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

FYS, I read your statements "Then why start a thread asking how to help the situation if you are unwilling to take measure" at least as a criticism of Barry, and together with your statement "You could be the pioneer in changing the face or reforming the grading industry," as at least an implicit suggestion that he had some moral responsibility to do so. If I misread you then I am sorry for having done so. As for the card itself, these rumors have been around forever in one form or another, and I just don't think it's wise or productive to state opinions based on other people's opinions or based on hearsay.

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Posted By: John

“I think it was Barry Halper that tried to start a National Collectors Club (or something like that) back in the early 80's. Not sure if it ever got off the ground but the mention of a society for vintage baseball card collectors is not new.”

Leon I love the idea, we could be the baseball card collector equivalent of the Super Friends.



The only question is what are everyone’s special powers?

Does this also mean that Jay is our arch enemy/evil nemesis? If so he will need a name and lair agreed?

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Posted By: edacra

There was a very well known autograph dealer in the late 80's who used to get prime spots at national shows who got in trouble with the law from selling autopen signatures. While the incident got a huge amount of press, the thing that stood out for me at the time was how many dealers admitted they knew the material was fake, and turned the other cheek. By that point, a large number of dealers handling autographs were carrying these fake signatures - and continued to sell them.

I can remember feeling a huge amount of resentment towards the people who knew and didn't blow the whistle sooner. It's a matter of integrity, and I think it's the responsibility of anyone who makes a living through sports cards.

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Posted By: John_B_California

I agree with Joe, that there are probably some biases that explain the different numbers.

I've seen far more ungraded T206's at shows and on ebay than T213. There's little incentive to get low graded, low dollar cards slabbed (i.e. 1's, 2's or those with writing). The population skews to the middle for a popular set like T206. There's also been notable T206 finds (southern find), plus the 7's, 8's and 9's are more likely to be cracked and resubmitted, thus artifically inflating their numbers.

There's enough holes in some of these early sets to make me question how widespread fraud really is. I remember in the 90's when I subscribed to SCD, there was always an ad in the back looking for high grade T204's (I forget the dealers name off hand). And now to look at the pop report 10-12 years later, and see that there's hardly anything above a 6, it makes me doubt this image I have in my mind of these shady guys trimming and altering cards in the wee hours of the night and then sending them to Newport Beach and fleecing the public. You can't even build that set in a 6.

Interesting discussion guys.

John

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

“Recently, i was the high bidder on a couple of pre-war graded lots, from a relatively well known auction house ….. both items have been tampered with.

What i am suspicious of, is holders being broken open, and cards being switched ……. (~$450) changed hands

I spoke with the auction house today, and they didn't seem terribly interested in fixing things.
They stated that there was no refund on graded cards”


In my opinion, as confidence in the legitimacy of the hobby’s product erodes, collectors will seek out more secure avenues for fun and investment. Brian’s observation is not directed to highly graded rare cards, by any means. Cards in the $200-300 range cross our table more frequently than they formerly did.

And further, my thinking is that a seller who does not stand behind the legitimacy of what he sells, has just committed professional suicide.


But this is not acceptable to me. I prefer to continue to collect baseball cards. And I know that the longevity of this hobby is predicated on this hobby’s ability to attract new collectors.

EBay is a mine field for persons without significant experience. Auction houses do not accept returns on misadvertised phony graded cards? Who would play roulette if the wheel was rigged?

We need the card cops. This is getting out of hand. Or maybe I am overreacting. Yes, that must be it. Why should I think that I have a right to get what I pay for?

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Posted By: JimB

I tend to agree with John B. California. While I am sure some altered cards have slipped through, to say or imply that most high-grade old cards in PSA or SGC holders are altered is, in my opinion, a reckless, unsubstantiated generalization that does the hobby no good.

And it is not true that they were not around before. I recently picked up a load of old Trader Speaks from the '70's and early '80's. I have been drooling at the prices of old T and E cards listed as NM or Mint. They were there then.
JimB

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Posted By: JimB

And I think it is obvious that higher-grade T and E cards are submitted at a greater rate than low grade ones for obvious reasons. In other words, I think a much larger percentage of the T206 red portrait Cobbs in NM or better have been submitted than the percentage of those in lower grades. This also skews the numbers, though high grade cards from that era still make up an incredibly low percentage of graded cards from the era - even though they are submitted at a relatively much higher rate.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

FYS- and I wish I knew your name- I've long suspected that the PSA-8 Wagner is not what it appears to be, but to write an article you need to have something to say and a point of view. My opinion could be expressed in a single sentence, and then where do I go from there? I also can't say "a friend of a friend saw the pictures" when I in fact didn't. That's hearsay, not evidence. It would end up being a poor article. And as I said, I have no ax to grind. The owner will probably keep it for many years, and I know he is proud of it. He also does good things, taking it to schools and sharing it with fellow collectors. Why ruffle feathers under those circumstances? Now Leon and Mr. Mint posing as the Ambiguously Gay duo-there's a story with some meat to it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just to respond to Jim B's last statement- all those NR MT cards you saw in the Trader Speaks would likely only grade EX or EX-MT today, so that may not be your proof.

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Posted By: leon

For the record I personally have NO first hand experience that the PSA8 Wagner is trimmed. I have been told by at least 5 folks, whom I greatly respect, that have said they have first hand knowledge (seen pics) that the card is not good. I am not positive as it's hearsay...but from trusted sources. Those sources have remained silent publicly. Bill Heitmann did come on here and give a first hand account of his take on it.

John- I guess I look pretty good in blue...but don't think I could ever be as big of a personality as Mr.Mint.

Concerning remaining anonymous on the board I would caution folks about the rules......so far so good....

As for trimmed high end cards in holders....maybe 50% is too much but the fact remains that I do believe there are a lot of them that have been altered....that's still my opinion based on everything I know....regards

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

My take on this. I agree with Jim and John. Yes there may be altered cards in holders but over 50 percent no way. From what i have seen there are alot of OVERGRADED cards in 8, 9, 10 holders . The population reports do not lie. My guess using t206 as an example is that cards in 7-10 holders have each been submitted 3 or more times to get the bump. Which would make the total of t206 7-10 cards one third of what you see. Also the t204 example is a very good one. I feel overgraded cards lead people to buy the holder and not the card.

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Posted By: Andy

Do the major grading companies have any internal quality control systems in place to test their graders abilities? For example, many companies will hire internet security firms to actually try to break through their security and access their systems. Thereby learning where the holes are and what they need to do to tighten up their security.

Would those of you who deal with graded cards feel more comfortable if the grading companies were to hire some people to create very convincing fakes to be submitted to test their own people's ability to spot them? If the cards were graded and slabbed, then they could be pulled and used as examples to further educate the graders. What about hiring people to alter some cards for the same testing? Just a thought I had. Please let me know if I'm crazy this afternoon. Thanks.

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Posted By: Rick (calleocho)

A good idea would be to look at more mature hobbies and how they have dealt with similar problems.

Coins would be a good start

I also think increasing the fees for grading dramatically could help ...dont know how popular that would be.

However ..the hobby will evolve ...some in it wont ..but thats life

Im not that pessimistic about it though...most collectors are quite passionatte and do try to learn more everyday about the hobby, the cards etc.

I also see collectors pay more for eye appeal than technical grades and most collectors also realize that a slab while helpful its not the ultimate judge of a card's authenticity or quality.

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Posted By: FYS

Barry,

FYS = Mike Uhl. If you click on the FYS name in my posts, it will automatically open an e-mail window to mikeuhl@comast.net.

As a 26 year long collector, it does sadden me that many with first hand knowledge of the Wagner situation turn a blind eye. No, I am not talking about Barry. I think educra made a good point that as an individual or collector, there can be some resentment when some of the people that are admired (hero's if you will) in the hobby seem to do nothing. That is easy to say when you are on the outside of the equation. I am sure it would not be much fun to be the person that comes forth. The only publication that could pull off an investigative article, which cooperation from first hand observers, would be Old Cardboard, in my opinion. Tuff Stuff and SCD would not touch it due to lost advertising revenues. SGC and Beckett would not touch it due to the hypercompetitive onslaught that would take place afterwards.

In any case, I would like to see the truth published. I think it will force improved buyback programs, consistency, examination procedures and introduce some additional technology to the field of grading. It could also potentially begin the end or come clean to a chapter of the more shady side of the hobby.

Just at this years National, I was able examine a slabbed A&G NM/MT card that under 100X magnification, glue beads could be seen from the rebacking of the card. Higher magnification is just one additional technology that could become more common place, if some public event warranted this sort of additional help.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I wouldnt have guessed !

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Posted By: jay behrens

If I am going to be the arch-villians, I want an evil platypus as my sidekick.

Bhys is correct, it's time this hobby followed the lead of al other collectibles fields and start a national organization to police itself. I am sure more than a few board members would be willing to be part of a board to run the organization. I know I would, and I would be kick ass and taking names.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

This is a much-needed post but I think that it has gotten too negative. The stock market analogy was made earlier and since I ran a Hedge Fund for many years, I will try to contest, the draconian parallel. In my opinion, the entire universe of sports cards is extremely self-correcting and not in need of a federal reserve to influence speculation and the lack thereof. I think all of us who ever bought a card produced after 1980 know what I am talking about. With regard to the high-grade or PSA 9 market, these cards have been in decline for a while now. Most post-war PSA 9 non-rookie cards are falling precipitously. Some will point to low-pop commons as an inflated market and there I agree with them but in many cases, those prices are a function of one or two individuals dueling it out.

Back to the stock market analogy and March 2000, many people bought blind into stock analyst's strong buy recommendations and were decimated but those who did their own research were able to avoid the Info space’s. I think the same due diligence is prudent in this business. When a collector forks out large amounts of money for a piece of cardboard, homework is necessary. What is homework? Its all been said before, following realized prices, buying the card not the holder, avoiding low pop high-grade cards that are more susceptible to volatility. Many board members have gone to the low to mid grade to hedge against buying significantly altered cards, which might be the reason many of the 2-5 HOF pre-war market is so red-hot, and the aforementioned post-war 9 market is dying. Which proves the point that, as is the case with the stock market, money does not leave but rather if rotates from sector to sector or sports card issue.

With regard to the % of trimmed slabbed cards, I have had many cards that are fresh from a one-owner collection that will never grade with PSA. These are beautiful mint condition cards that are of all sizes that have provenance. Sometimes its the "kiss of death" to have a mint condition card because the automatic assumption is that it is trimmed. I would much rather have cards that have wear on them consistent to handling opposed to un-circulated ones.

Just as individual stock investors now have accounts at Schwab or Ameritrade, baseball card investors must research the cards they buy and use the slab only to limit downside. Once a card is in a holder the owner is much better off because their will be a buyer of a graded card at % of SMR. Therefore, graded baseball cards are not going away and are not all soiled cardboard but rather a stop loss.

A little non sequitur but hopefully it lightens the mood a tad.

Charlie

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

If folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards.

Seriously, the love and desire of the slabs and the numbers, "9" or "80", that is what prompts the cheats to tamper with the cards.

Knowing what you're buying helps avoid this mess. If you hold an E145-1 and an E145-2 (1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack cards) in your hand, then you can better understand the card. Same for a T206. I vividly remember holding a Wagner. Not a slab, a card. And I am certain if you guys above held this "new Wagner" you could instantly tell, just by feel, that it was doctored.

So I think you guys are stuck with the tampered cards as long as you collect slabs. Honesty, isn't tampering and bleaching and all more prevelant nowadays, now that we have slabbing?

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Posted By: JimB

Frank,
I respectfully disagree with your statement,
"If folks would collect cards, instead of slabs, then people wouldn't be so inclined to trim, soak, wash, stretch, bleach, and otherwise tamper with the cards."

I think it is precisely because this was so prevalent that the graded card industry took off. It gave people confidence that these things were not happening to the cards they were buying.
JimB

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Posted By: ramram

....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount.

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Posted By: Anonymous

. . .

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Posted By: nbbrazil

"....collectors will realize that beauty lies in the content and quality of the image and not in the condition of the mount. "

that someday will come when our society refuses to idolize movie stars and pay more attention to teachers.

Very interesting discussion. As someone mentioned above, grading was created in response to the increased presence of counterfeit/overpriced/altered cards in a booming market (mainly popular pre and post war cards and popular modern cards (mcgwire, jordan, gretzky)). In an ideal sense, grading eliminates the scum of this hobby by putting dealers and buyers on the same level. Buyers know the condition and authenticity of the cards they purchase. Dealers, previously driven by the need to accumulate profit to meet overhead AND take a tidy sum home, will need to jump on the grading bandwagon in order to survive in this internet auction world. Prices of cards will trend toward the basics of supply and demand...and not on the whim of beckett, SCD or dealers at shows. Therefore, previously overgraded and unauthentic cards will no longer be their tools of profit and novice collectors will no longer be their prey.

But, unfortunately, two aspects make the grading market not as perfect as one would think it to be.

1.) Grading is subjective. On the whole, i think grading from the big 3 are consistent. But, on the whole is not 100%...or even 95%. Weve seen numerous examples of overgraded and undergraded cards from all companies. This, of course, forces the buyer to "purchase the card, not the slab." But, by doing this, we defeat the basic purpose of grading....confidence in the condition and authenticity of the card. When i buy a PSA 3, it better damn well be a PSA 3!! But, as weve seen, that's not always the case. Someone above mentioned a 0.5 grading system to measure the margin of error in grading. Well, i doubt that will happen because as mentioned above the current system that is in place is already established and entrenched in the minds of collectors. Additionally, the margin of error you see in such things as surveys and political polls are statistical by nature. The margin of error is a function of the variability associated with the sampling design. In grading, margin of error is based on what??....the subjectivity of the grader and nothing else. That impreciseness is not something you can quantify.

2.) Alteration has become more sophisticated. Soaking, fine precision trimming, etc have likely become more prevalant in our hobby today. This has been the pre grading countefeiters' response to grading. The counterfeiter thinks "Ok, so these companies are going to ensure the condition and authenticity of cards. Well, i'll just one up them and advance the tools of my trade." Additionally, you have such things as slab swapping, WIWAG, tampering and other terms that define the increased focus on trying to get cards in higher conditioned slabs.

I fully believe that our hobby will not be going to hell in a handbasket. I support grading in its idealogical sense. But, since grading is tied to human subjectivity..it will have its flaws. That's why a place like this...an open forum where collectors from all around the world can get advice...is very important.

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Posted By: Martin Neal

Although I am sure that many high grade t206s are altered, I disagree that the percentage is very high. The "southern find" in 1989 provided over 1000 high grade t206s to the population report. Of couse there is no way of knowing how many of these found their way to the Psa's population report, but if they were all graded by Psa, they would represent nearly 20 percent of all cards graded Psa 7 or higher. I have several of the cards from that find (graded 8) and I have heard that many graded 9. I don't profess to know the details of this find, but if anyone knows Marco who I think runs the Chantilly show, he would be able to elaborate on this subject. He was one of the 4 pricipals who originally purchased this group. Ted, you may know him personally and ask him to visit the board and explain his take on high grade t206s. Statistically, of the million plus of t206s that have survived, the number of cards in the psa 8 or 9 range looks reasonable. Personally, I would love to hear the true story of this find and it keeps me hoping that another one will surface in the future.

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Posted By: andy becker

hi everyone,
i agree there are altered cards that are in slabs. no question.

however, when leon (hey leon) says 50% of high grade cards 100ish years old are altered, i have to ask.....then when does the age of a high grade card become a non-issue?
-are most high grade diamond stars altered?
-are most high grade 1952 topps altered?
-are most high grade 1962 topps altered?
-1972?
-1982?
-1992?
-2002?

when does it become acceptable that a high grade example could have survived?

and if it's possible for there to be surviving high grade 2002 issue, why must we think that all high grade 1912 issues are altered?
some yes, for sure, but a high percentage like 50....no way.

i would also add that there are plenty of low and midgrade cards that are altered, some reside in slabs and some do not. but altering cards is not exclusively a high grade phenomenon.

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Posted By: leon

My guess of 50.1% of high grades in slabs as being altered might be high, as I have already recanted elsewhere. I do find it interesting that many of the folks that say "it ain't so" have high grade cards in slabs. Kind of like protecting PSA when you have a large investment in their slabs? Regardless, if it's only 10% (and I will always think that that percentage is low, based on what I have been told and seen) it's still too many. Heck, we can't even get past the first card graded by the almighty PSA. But maybe I am just out to get that big bad slabbing company. Maybe there's no issue at all and PSA has very experienced graders....and about Santa.....

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Posted By: Jay

First, I am not talking my position. I have virtually no pre-1920 cards in slabs. However, I think even 10% is way too high. When you say that cards in pristine condition can't survive that long how about the '14 Cracker Jacks that fan favorite SGC graded. Your opinion should be based on more than horror stories that SGC tells about PSA or PSA about SGC or claims by hobby veterans who, before the advent of grading companies, called EX cards NrMT on a regular basis.
I agree with the posts that say if you guys really believe there is a problem then do something about it. However, I can say with some certainty that this will not happen because those who tend to complain the loudest on this board tend to be those who do the least. To quote an old chestnut: "After all is said and done there is alot more said than done".

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't think it's important whether it's 2% or 42%. Once it is established that altered cards make it into slabs, every card is a potential problem. How do you have confidence when you are buying if there is a seed of doubt that it might be altered?

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Posted By: John S

I have no idea what percentage of cards that reside in holders have been altered. The fact remains that some have. And I also agree with the counterpoint that more cards are available than fifteen years due the increased visibility of the hobby, internet, etc. However that does not explain the relative level of high-end material that seems to be continuously available. The hobby has changed into more of a business. Some people will "cut corners" to make money if the opportunity arises. A number of people want proof for the accusations that cards are being altered and finding their way into slabs. Use your eyes and experience...what further proof do you need? I believe that Gil stated that one of the negative consequences of grading is the dumbing down of the hobby, collectors relying on the third-party system for peace of mind rather than their own experience. I couldn't agree more.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Why does grading have to be absolutely 100% accurate in order to serve a purpose? 2% or %50? Anybody who can claim 2% inaccuracy in any endavor in life should be immortalized. How many doctors have made the wrong diganois? Do we stop going to Doctors when they breach a certain % of malpractice? Grading baseball cards is an opinion. One in which the same person could look at the same card days removed and come up with a diffrent grade.

Charlie

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Posted By: John S

Charlie,

I agree completely if it is an honest error.

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Posted By: jay behrens

A doctor is bad anology. Medicine is NOT an exact science. Grading isn't either, but each company has established guidelines for grades and when they cannot obviously sollow those guidelines, there is a serious problem. How many times have seen cards with high grades that did not meet the minimum centering standas, or a card with a chunk missing from it (the PSA3 CJ Wagner comes to mind)? There are mistakes made that there is no excuse for and can be easily corrected, but PSA REFUSES to admit to mistake, no matter how big or small. I don't think they ever did admit to losing the Magie card even though they lost the laawsuit.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

"A doctor is bad anology. Medicine is NOT an exact science."

Jay, I think you kind of hit it on the head there (in a round about way). Grading cards is NOT an exact science either. Professional graders should have licences and they "practice" their craft at the grading company facilites. If you think about it, they're still practicing, trying to get it right...

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

The Doctor analogy is the correct one. We pay Doctors to render an opinion on our health or lack thereof. Many mistakes are made. Medicine may not be an exact science but nor is grading. There are exceptions to both but we are not going to render opinons based on the aberrations?

I remember reading about a person who went in for surgery and left with a scalple left in his body cavity.

Many mistakes are made in both professions because their anacdotes are made by human beings who are not inflable.

Intent is another issue, some would argue that Doctors and drug companies are incentivsed to keep us sick in order to make money? Much like card grading, grading companies have an incentive to make some mistakes to foster reviews and re-grading.

Charlie

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Posted By: andy becker

....and i hear what you are saying leon about the group defending high grade slabs.....but the group knocking them is comprised of low to mid grade collectors. so what does that mean?
i just don't think a blanket statement can be made regarding % of altered cards in slabs. i think each card, raw or third party graded, should be evaluated on an individual basis.

i have another question.... if card "doctors" can alter cards and fool graders, why aren't the population reports of 7's,8's, and 9's exploding? or are they?

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Posted By: jay behrens

The reason it is not exploding is that you need the right card. You can't just take any card and turn it into an 8 or 9. As was mentioned here or in another thread, there is a big demand for 6s and 7s because these cards have many of the characteristics needed to be able to doctor a card. Even after the doctoring is done, there is no gaurentee that work came out undetectable.

another question might be, how many vintage cards have been destroyed in the creatation and the attempt to create a higher grade card.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: leon

The answer to your question about why are there not more high grade cards due to the doctoring could be as simple as maybe everyone is not crooked? I am not going to argue the fact of what I have been saying (anymore) and I do agree we probably shouldn't talk in percentages (the more I think about it). Everyone needs to believe what they want to. I have my beliefs based on all of the information I have...... They could certainly change in the future, with new info. BTW, one other tidbit.....I read in a post yesterday that someone was talking about T213's. What a shame. I don't think that person has ever handled a type one as they didn't know the way they are. For all of you slabheads out there that have never touched our gems the T213 type ones are on paper-like stock, not normal card stock. That could be the biggest travesty about slabs, the fact you can't touch the cards and get to know them......best regards

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Leon:

It was me talking about the T213s. I thought it was the type 3 that was printed on the lighter stock, but the type 1 and 2 were printed on heavier stock, similar to T206. Am I incorrect in that? I only have a type 2 - looks, feels and smells just like a T206 to me, with more slickness on the front.

-Al

EDITED: Huh - I just found some info about this, and it appears I've been incorrect about the Type 1s. Learn something new every day. Not sure this is an issue of me being a "slabhead", though, as I simply don't own any cards of this type yet.

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Posted By: leon

It wasn't personal it was just a general statement. It's hard to tell the stock when something is entombed. I understand you don't own any. My apologies....and btw, the type 2's are the more standard ones....type 1's are thinner stock and the type 3's don't have big borders and are a little heavier stock. Sometimes it pays to be a type collector ....take care

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Leon,

No apologies necessary at all. I just learned something, which is the point of the board, right?

I knew one was lighter and the other two were heavier, I just had my numbers incorrect. The one Type 2 that I have was broken out of a Global holder, felt with my own hands and smelled with my own nose, and then promptly sent to SGC. My type collection's just not as deep as yours.

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Posted By: Brian Goldner

IMO, the hobby is not at all prepared to deal with these very dangerous issues.

At least now now.

At present, these problems are simply brushed under the rug, and conveniently forgotten about.

IMO, only if these things begin to happen often enough, to undermine the confidence of the buyers, to the point where the $$$ stops flowing, will anything be significantly addressed, on a hobby-wide basis.

Alterations/trimming etc. have been going on for decades, with those happening in earlier years (trimming), obviously being for different reasons, then that of the past 25-30 years or so, when restoration also entered into the equation.

To offer an opinion, as to what degree, is difficult.

With consideration to pre-war, i think that it is rather dependant upon the issue, as to what percentage of higher end graded material, may in fact, be altered.

To address the possibility of a Black Monday of sorts, i respectfully disagree with you Leon.

IMO, a significant downturn will eventually take place, but to what degree, is hard to say.

It is inevitable, regardless of the fact that the depth of buyers, is deeper than it was in the last cycle.

When it happens, i would think that people will still be buying to some degree, but i expect that it will be spotty, with interest generally being in specific things.

Outside of those specifics, it will be tough, as buyers won't be lining up to purchase material on that day, if a new prevailing wisdom is that the same material might be cheaper the following day.



Thanks everyone, Brian

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Posted By: leon

You make good points for a good debate. I assume you have read a lot of the trade rags from 10-30 yrs ago? I could find very many instances where the authors of articles are talking about the rising prices of cards. Seemed like things were going crazy with prices going up so fast. There could be a downturn sometime, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I feel our niche of the hobby is too deep for a plummet or "Black Monday". ...I don't think prices can continually go up the way they have though. ...just my 2 cents....and I've been wrong before ??

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Posted By: jay behrens

prices may not pummet, but they will more likely flaten out. In the late 80s, everyone thought there was no limit to the rise. Newer stuff eentually plumetted while vintage cards dipped a bit, but basically flattend out for much of the 90s. The same will most likely happen some time in the near future. The market may be deep nw, but when the market flattens out or dips a bit, a lot of the depth is going to disappear. Those people are here because they think can make easy money. When that is no longer the case, they leave and move on to something else. The die hards, like us, will still be here, buying things up while those with less dedication are dumping their holdings.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Notice just the one full stop.

My goats been got a lot lately, so here's another.
There is an awful lot of hobby snobbery that goes on in these posts, and these are my personal bugbears.
All of them assume that those of you who have enjoyed the hobby in one particular way, old school you might conveniently call it, can set the table for all who come - or else the nouveau hobbyists should all get mocked and mud-pied.

1. You have to hold a card in your hands, and use all five senses while moving across the rice paper in the dojo in pitch darkness navigating pits of asps, to understand cards.
Horse manure.

2. Putting them in plastic holders and thus out of easy groping is heretical.
Hah. You enjoy your cards your way, I'll enjoy mine however I damned choose, and its no less grand a method than yours for it achieves its purpose. It pleases me.

3. New collectors to the hobby, who haven't read article 154 of some trader magazine circa 1991, deserve to be ripped off in their pursuit of cards for their lack of deep understanding and nodding acquiescence.
Sure. And if you've never set the timing on a 59 corvette, you have no right keeping one in the driveway. Never been gay and had your own makeover show, who are you to choose the drapes? Never gone to the fifth set advantage by 2 at 12-11 down and serving 0-30, well then, turn off the US open between McEnroe and Lendl right now. I mean it, right now!


I just don't get it. I've been involved in the card world some 6 years now, with considerable buying, selling, and researching time clocked in. And yet, I only just stumbled across this site some 6 months ago and in reading the posts it is as if the entire vintage world somehow only resides on these pages. Are you all kidding yourselves? Whilst many, maybe most, of the big players are aware of the site, it is but a tuna in the oceans of the collecting world and hardly carries all wisdom and truth within it.

So, to John S, who is my new favourite Dorskin and pompous of his place as a hobbyist I'm quite sure beyond his real measure.......
I don't think anyone deserves to be shafted simply because they don't know better. Just like my wife should be able to go in and get the same deal on a car - new or used, at a dealership as I would. Just like the plumber should take 45 minutes to do a 45 minute job - and not an hour and a half. Just as, children born into those crazy polygomous homes in Utah need to be taken out of an environment they don't control and given a chance for a decent life.


But on this board, it seems that some have perfected the art of self-agrandizement and diminishment of others to such levels that they really believe this board has all the answers, just sit back and listen and soon they will become obvious to even an idiot like you, Daniel. Yes, we're talking to YOU.


Daniel




edited for spelling.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Daniel, if you really think this board is a small fish in the big ocean of collecting, then you are deluding yourself. There is no single place that provides more knowledge about vintage cards than this site. Many of the top dealers and collectors frequent this board and provide their knowledge and insight. Many of these dealers and collectors have been around since the 70s adn early 80s.

No one is deriding your choice to own nothing but slabbed cards. Go ahead and collect that way, if that's what makes you happy. Just know that when you finally find that once in a lifetime collection of cards at an estate sale or garage sale, you will lack the requisite knowledge and experience in handling real cards to know the difference between a real and fake card when you hold a raw card in your hand. Nothing can substitute for holding a card in your hand. You get to learn what the paper stock should look like, how it should flex, how the light should reflect of it, what the card should like on the edges, whether it is one piece of cardboard, or several layers glued together. You cannot see the edges of a slabbed card to learn this information.

We may come across as holier than thou when it comes to card knwoledge because the knowledge we have obtained was hard fought for and tooks years and the handling of thousands of cards to gain this knowledge. Now with the internet, what took us old schoolers 10 years or more to learn can be learned ina matter of months, less the card handling. Nothing can substitute for that. You'll have to pardon our holier than thou attitute you seem to think we have, as we have earned this right.

And you are right, you don't need to know how to set the timing on a 59 Vette to own one, but you if plan on buying one, you better know what came ona stock one and the other details you needed to know in order to a good investment quality car.

Collect whatever you want, the way you want, but don't chastise us because we have knowledge that you will never have because of the way you collect.

Jay

A good friend will come bail you out of jail. A true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn, that was fun."

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Posted By: William Heitman

Barry Halper incorporated a company named the National Association of Sports Collectors (it's been quite a few years, so I may have the name a little wrong). It was in 1976. He asked me to sit on the original board of directors and asked for suggestions on what the organization could do. I wrote Barry a letter in which I suggested several things--provide a means to arbitrate disputes between collectors, push for grading guidelines and a National Sports Collectors Convention(where the free flow and exchange of information would be foremost). These were the things I wanted to see as a condition of my sitting on the board. Well, we did some free advertising through George Lyons' and my articles in the Trader Speaks. I did one arbitration--and it remains the only one that was ever done. A few years later, Gavin Riley got hold of Barry's and my correspondence when he was interested in such a group. He read my letter about the National Convention and took it from there. And wow, when I went to the National this year (my first in 14 years), I could hardly believe what it had become.