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#51
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Posted By: Denny
Has Any Body even Mention'd "Big" Ed Walsh? He has the lowest era of any pitcher ever. He's the only guy ever to pitch & win(complete games at that) a double header...Twice! I'm a "Big Six" fan Along with "Big Ed"....Matty won the 1905 World series(3-0) almost by himself! I do agree with Barry's opinion about Seaver. I grew up in Astoria & moved to Long Island, Tom was definately a force to be recond with.... |
#52
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Posted By: Ricky Y
No qwalms with Gwynn and Ripken...I wished Goose Gossage had gotten in this time. |
#53
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Posted By: barrysloate
Tony Gwynn was quoted in the paper today saying: "We all knew. All you all knew. We knew. Players knew. Owners knew. Everybody knew. And we didn't say anything about it." |
#54
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Posted By: Tony Andrea
The way I see it is this. If your going to keep one out from the steroid era such as Mcgwire, I dont have a problem with it, but you'd better keep them all out if your going to do that. Tony |
#55
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Posted By: Anonymous
"I would rate Pedro, Koufax, Bob Gibson, and maybe Spahn as being superior to Tom Terrific (anyone else remember Tom Terrific?)." |
#56
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Posted By: whycough
I'm glad you took up the cudgel in this little debate on the rating of moundsmen we have actually seen with our own eyes. First, let me explain one thing. I believe that longevity is overrated when looking at the relative greatness of baseball players. I'm more of a talent guy. If Player A is a superior player for 10 years to Player B, but then leaves the game (for what ever reason); and then Player B continues his excellence at his slightly lesser level than Player A for, say, 5 more years, then I still consider Player A a better player. I also like to judge players when they are healthy. When Koufax and Pedro were healthy and at their peaks, they had more talent and were better than any other pitchers I have seen (batters had no shot!). I also like to greatly consider the evidence of my own eyes rather than being just a stat guy. Both these criterion (longevity overrated and the evidence of my own eyes) have led me to conclude that, among other conclusions that |
#57
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Posted By: Bob
Joe DiMaggio didn't get enough votes the first year he was eligible. Hard to believe. |
#58
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Posted By: Jason L
No HOF for Big Mac, special sauce or not |
#59
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Bob, of course, you're right. Unfortunately, once a player reaches that 500 HR magical plateau all common sense flies out the window. Look at Fred McGriff. I think he retired a few HRs short of 500 and will barely be an afterthought when he is eligible. Had he hit a few more HRs...different story -- he probably becomes Wade Boggs to some extent in terms of Hall-worthy stats. All that being said, tons of players cheated in the dead ball era so I'm not sure (though I wish) we can keep players out forever due to their cheating. Tell me this, however: watching McGwire even being considered for the Hall--doesn't it piss you off that Rose cannot even get on the ballot? |
#60
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Posted By: peter chao
Bob, Jason |
#61
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Posted By: LetsGoBucs
"Clemente was better than Aaron" |
#62
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Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#63
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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)
I know this has already been said but... |
#64
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Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#65
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Posted By: davidcycleback
I beleive several voters don't vote for players in their first year no matter who is on the ballot. |
#66
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Posted By: DMcD
"I say that our vintage forum should get a vote on the next HOF ballot." |
#67
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Posted By: Jason L
never said that? |
#68
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Posted By: howard
Clemente was a better fielder than Aaron but Aaron was still an outstanding defensive player. He was also a much better hitter than clemente and a better base runner. |
#69
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Posted By: whycough
The Great Roberto was worth the price of admission all by himself. He had the BEST outfield arm I've ever seen. He was a Jackie Robinson-type baserunner. The only better fielder I've seen is Willie Mays. Ask Wayne Varner. As Joe D once told a friend about the wonder of making love with MM, "You should'a been there." |
#70
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Posted By: barrysloate
You know, if you went strictly by the numbers, you could make a case that Aaron was the greatest player of all time. Not saying he is, just that you could have a solid argument in his behalf. |
#71
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Posted By: barrysloate
Joe D. made love to Mickey Mantle- I thought they hated each other |
#72
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Posted By: whycough
Very droll, Barry! |
#73
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Posted By: barrysloate
I guess I picked the wrong MM! |
#74
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Posted By: howard
I agree that Clem had one of the all-time great arms but a "Jackie Robinson type base runner"? If you mean that they both ran by putting one foot ahead of the other then I agree. Clem had some speed and was a smart base runner but Robinson has been widely acknowledged as one of the all-time great base runners. He was a guy who could get into a pitchers head just by being on base. A better comparison between the two would be their courage and their commitment to social causes. |
#75
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Posted By: Bob
Jeff- I agree 100%. As long as Speaker and Cobb are in (as well as others who bet and tried to influence games) Rose deserves to be in the Hall as a player. |
#76
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Posted By: barrysloate
Howard- while I agree Clemente had one of the greatest World Series ever, it was the 1971 Series. |
#77
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Posted By: barrysloate
Bob- my argument for Aaron was strictly by the numbers: 1st in home runs, RBI's, total bases, and extra base hits; 3rd in hits and runs (I think). Those are monster stats in all the most important categories. Of course, there are others who were as good or better, but those numbers don't lie. |
#78
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Posted By: howard
Thanks Barry. I think '72 was Gene Tenace's year. |
#79
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Posted By: peter chao
Barry, |
#80
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Posted By: barrysloate
Clemente was my favorite player when I was growing up but Aaron had a better career. And I think he may be 4th in runs scored, behind Henderson, Cobb, and Rose. I'm doing this from memory, so can someone confirm that number? |
#81
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Posted By: Mark Burke
Aaron was tied for 3rd (with Ruth). Clemente was 76th. |
#82
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Posted By: Bob
Here's a look at the players coming in as 1st year players in the next 3 years: |
#83
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Posted By: barrysloate
I was way off. Isn't Henderson 1st? |
#84
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
I agree with Bob. Is Raines first ballot material? No way in my mind. Was Gossage a more dominant player in his era? In my opinion, yes. Next year I think Gossage goes in with Rice and maybe Dawson. How can the HOF leave out guys that have been all-stars for 8 or 9 years? That clearly establishes dominance in an era which is enough for me. |
#85
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Posted By: barrysloate
Did you know that Tim Raines used to slide into second base on a slight angle when he was stealing because he would keep a vial of cocaine in his uniform pants pocket? Now that's HOF material. |
#86
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Posted By: Mark Burke
Barry....yes, Henderson was first, Cobb was 2nd. |
#87
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Posted By: fkw
Raines could hang in the "cokehead wing" with Jenkins and Cepeda, and Rose and J.Jackson could hang in the "game fixer wing" with Speaker and Cobb. |
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