M101-2 Sporting News Supplements: Gaining more attention, discuss

[GregMitch34]

Yeah, they've been around forever, I always had a few tattered ones (Merkle!), but never got much attention because of inevitable condition issues and mainly--no PSA grading! Only BGS. Still, I have always loved them. As a photog, I appreciate the quality of the images, the very large size and sepia. Almost nothing like them, and some captures are simply stunning.

The attention and value started changing a few years back when PSA started grading. Fit the PSA holder very well and look great. Very few noticed at first, as few graded, but now surging (relative to the norm for these), as top cards now boast at least half-dozen graded and some a dozen or more. Prices have soared at major auction houses while raw, flawed, ones are now frequent on eBay.

PSA has kept everyone guessing by being super-tough on grading, with any crease or invariable slight border nick or tear almost always earning a "1." Absolutely gorgeous examples with square corners but one tiny flaw still get a 1.5 at best. Man, to get a "3" you really earn it. Total number of "5s" so far: 5, and none higher. So in many cases it is buy-the-image-not-the-grade, with Cubs players seemingly getting a nice boost a value. BGS grades now seem inflated and no one seems interested in them now.

Anyway: If you want to add your two cents or two dollars here please do so. It will be interesting to see if prices hold or gain or fade as more graded. Or perhaps the universe of these in good condition is very small. The elite cards now are: Jackson, Cobb, Wagner, Cobb-Wagner, Johnson-Street, Matty, and Alexander (often called his rookie card)....

[calvindog]

[Peter_Spaeth]

My only one, though not elite apparently lol.

[michael3322]

Greg,

"BGS grades now seem inflated and no one seems interested in them now."

Respectfully, this is your opinion, and is not shared by most or possibly even any other collectors frankly.

Just check out the current Heritage Auction, which clearly demonstrates strong interest in M101's in BGS holders. To save you time, here is the link.

[GregMitch34]

Maybe "no one seems interested" is too strong, apologies, but the fact is--the number of BGS sales via auction and ebay in past two years is barely visible in comparison to PSA sales--even though BGS has to date still graded twice as many of these.

[michael3322]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

Maybe "no one seems interested" is too strong, apologies, but the fact is--the number of BGS sales via auction and ebay in past two years is barely visible in comparison to PSA sales--even though BGS has to date still graded twice as many of these.

Fair enough Greg. But also it is possible that many with BGS are not selling, some might be crossing over now that PSA is grading them, etc. There are lots of possibilities.

Regardless, it is exciting to see interest is growing in these.

Do you think the increasing interest in the M101-2's parallels the uptick in interest in pre-war Type 1 photos (Conlon, etc.)?

[GregMitch34]

That's an interesting point about pre-war photos helping spark. Certainly the interest in the photos is long overdue. It may be that many or some others, like me, find the much larger images more gripping and great in the hand vs. the relatively tiny cards.

On people maybe crossing over these to PSA: Seems wise. This year a BGS 4.5 Bobby Wallace sold for 360. A PSA 2 for same this year went for 580.

The problem in crossing over, however, will be likely grade deflation in most cases. For example, that BGS 4.5 Wallace on close inspection had the kind of little nicks that guarantee a PSA 1 or 1.5. I know because I owned it.

[Lorewalker]

Speaking to the M101-2s I never really appreciated them other than the Cobb, which Jeff posted. I think that is the nicest looking Cobb "card" in the hobby. The others never did much for me until recently where I have added a few to my collection. They are beautiful in any grade.

My take on the grading is that PSA seems to be too harsh on them but they are overly harsh on all oversized issues from those I have seen. I think BVG does a much better job of grading them but BVG will never command the price you will see for those in a PSA holder, as in the example that Greg sited.

The main stars from the set are selling for huge premiums over what they had once sold for. I think it is possible we could see more appreciation in the future. Almost all are low pops but that is because PSA charges a fortune to grade them.

[T206Collector]

I like M101-2, but only if they’re signed! From the Doc Steen collection. And they look great in BGS holders.

[gabrinus]

Picked this up years ago from Mr Delong in Fort Smith...here is the back...Jerry

[GregMitch34]

I should have noted that the team cards are also cool. They come in two types: ones that are same size as players and can be graded by PSA (e.g. Red Sox, Giants), and double folds that cannot (Pitt with Wagner, A's, Cubs, Tigers with Cobb dressed in suits).

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694853549

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694853549

[michael3322]

Those team shots are incredible.

Every once in a while, you can find a reprint set available online. Each has a corner box noting "From Collection of Wm. Starr, San Diego, Ca.; Copyright 1980".

Any chance it was Bill Starr, former player/owner? https://sabr.org/journal/article/bil...rated-the-pcl/

Here is a sample:

[tiger8mush]

Nice thread, Greg.

For those who seek impossible challenges, collect them with ad backs ...
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=143977

Leon's example from the thread above:

[The Detroit Collector]

I love collecting the M101-2 set.
They have been getting pretty expensive recently, especially Hall of Famers.
I have the Del Gainor, Hughie Jennings and Ban Johnson

[GregMitch34]

RobG, I don't have any ad backs but I do have separate offer card.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694869301

[brunswickreeves]

These are a few of my favorite things

[Northviewcats]

I have picked up about 10 of these to add to my collection. They used to be cheap. No more. Here is my favorite.

[GregMitch34]

Another double-sized team card. Even harder to find in nice shape.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694882334

[michael3322]

Here is the issue date for the set:


1909-13 M101-2 Sporting News Supplements
Player Checklist

Card Issue Date Player

1909
(1) July 22 Roger Bresnahan
(2) July 29 Denton Young, Louis Criger
(3) August 5 Christopher Mathewson
(4) August 12 Tyrus R. Cobb
(5) August 19 Napoleon Lajoie
(6) August 26 Sherwood N. Magee
(7) September 2 Frank L. Chance
(8) September 9 Edward Walsh
(9) September 16 Nap Rucker
(10) September 23 Honus Wagner
(11) September 30 Hugh Jennings
(12) October 7 Fred C. Clarke
(13) October 14 Byron Bancroft Johnson
(14) October 21 Charles A. Comiskey
(15) October 28 Edward Collins
(16) November 4 James A. McAleer
(17) November 11 Pittsburgh Team (Pirates; 10x16 inches)
(18) November 18 Detroit Team (Tigers; 10x16 inches)
(19) November 25 George Bell
(20) December 2 Tris Speaker
(21) December 9 Mordecai Brown
(22) December 16 Hal Chase
(23) December 23 Thomas W. Leach
(24) December 30 Owen Bush

1910
(25) January 6 John J. Evers
(26) January 13 Harry Krause
(27) January 20 Chas. B. Adams
(28) January 27 Addie Joss
(29) February 3 Orval Overall
(30) February 10 Samuel E. Crawford
(31) February 17 Fred Merkle
(32) February 24 George Mullin
(33) March 3 Edward Konetchy
(34) March 10 George Gibson, Arthur Raymond
(35) March 17 Ty Cobb, Hans Wagner
(36) March 24 Connie Mack
(37) March 31 Wm. Evans, "Silk" O'Loughlin,
William Klem, Wm. Johnston
(38) April 7 Edward Plank
(39) September 1 Walter Johnson, Charles E. Street
(40) September 8 John C. Kling
(41) September 15 Frank Baker
(42) September 22 Charles S. Dooin
(43) September 29 Wm. F. Carrigan
(44) October 6 John B. McLean
(45) October 13 John W. Coombs
(46) October 20 Jos. B. Tinker
(47) October 27 John I. Taylor
(48) November 3 Russell Ford
(49) November 10 Leonard L. Cole
(50) November 17 Harry Lord
(51) November 24 Philadelphia-A Team (Athletics; 10x16 inches)
(52) December 1 Chicago-N. Team (Cubs; 10x16 inches)
(53) December 8 Charles A. Bender
(54) December 15 Arthur Hofman
(55) December 21 Bobby Wallace
(56) December 28 Jno. J. McGraw

1911
(57) January 5 Harry H. Davis
(58) January 12 James P. Archer
(59) January 19 Ira Thomas
(60) January 26 Robert Byrnes
(61) February 2 Clyde Milan
(62) February 9 John T. Meyer (Meyers)
(63) February 16 Robert Bescher
(64) February 23 John J. Barry
(65) March 2 Frank Schulte
(66) March 9 C. Harris White
(67) March 16 Lawrence Doyle
(68) March 23 Joe Jackson
(69) October 26 Martin O'Toole, William Kelly
(70) November 2 Vean Gregg
(71) November 9 Richard W. Marquard
(72) November 16 John E. McInnis
(73) November 23 Grover C. Alexander
(74) November 30 Del Gainor
(75) December 7 Fred Snodgrass
(76) December 14 James J. Callahan
(77) December 21 Robert Harmon
(78) December 28 George Stovall

1912
(79) January 4 Zack D. Wheat
(80) January 11 Frank "Ping" Bodie
(81) October 10 Boston-A Team (Red Sox)
(82) October 17 New York-N Team (Giants)
(83) October 24 Jake Stahl
(84) October 31 Joe Wood
(85) November 7 Charles Wagner
(86) November 14 Lew Ritchie
(87) November 21 Clark Griffith
(88) November 28 Arnold Hauser
(89) December 5 Charles Herzog
(90) December 12 James Lavender
(91) December 19 Jeff Tesreau
(92) December 26 August Hermann

1913
(93) October 23 Jake Daubert
(94) October 30 Heinie Zimmerman
(95) November 6 Ray Schalk
(96) November 13 Hans Lobert
(97) November 20 Albert W. Demaree
(98) November 27 Arthur Fletcher
(99) December 4 Charles A. Somers
(100) December 11 Joe Birmingham


Source: https://oldcardboard.com/m/m101-2/m101-2list.asp

[tiger8mush]

Pretty neat! 25 for a $1, not a bad deal!

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

RobG, I don't have any ad backs but I do have separate offer card.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694869301

[GregMitch34]

Another double-sized team photo--this time the dressy Tigers. Easy to spot Tyrus. I took this out of a frame where, fortunately, it had never been pasted on anything, so back is clean.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1694921139

[kcohen]

I put together a full set of these some years back. I had never detected much interest in these until reading this thread. A couple of mine are in Beckett holders. Though I think they present more nicely “raw”, I never bothered to break them out for fear of damaging the paper. Surprised to learn that PSA is slabbing them.

[GregMitch34]

KCohen, presuming you still have them--you might want to check out eBay auctions ending tonight with most of a full set raw. As usual, they are in pretty rough condition--some with tape on back and missing corners--but check out the prices for some of them, even with major flaws....

[kcohen]

Thanks Greg. That should be interesting. Fortunately the key player examples are in good shape without major flaws

[GregMitch34]

KCohen, you mean the ones you have?

[53toppscollector]

has anyone figured out a good way to display the larger 16x10 cards without damaging them? the standard size fit perfectly into a single pocket album page.

[GregMitch34]

James M., i have mine in regular frames, just fit them in and with loose backing so no damage. It's a pain but possible.

PSA does not grade. I think BGS did, perhaps folding them over?

[kcohen]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

KCohen, you mean the ones you have?

Yes. The ones I have.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by 53toppscollector

has anyone figured out a good way to display the larger 16x10 cards without damaging them? the standard size fit perfectly into a single pocket album page.

i store the "non-large" m101-2s in a rigid holder that then fits into an Avery album page for binder viewing. Adds extra support and lets me see that oh-so imporant blank back

[nolemmings]

Here are a couple of mine. PSA grading on these is just stupid. Mine will not show up in their holders while I'm still breathing. I did buy a couple of commons in Beckett holders, and am waiting for someone to lend me a jackhammer so that I can release them.

[53toppscollector]

a few weeks ago, i literally went 1 out of like 40 auctions for the M101-2s that GMC was selling and it really bummed me out. tonight, i ended up winning 10 out of the 35 that i had snipes in for. ups and downs, strikes and gutters, as they say

[GregMitch34]

I only won 2. Prices for rough 'n raw on some might seem high (especially vs. year ago) but some were real bargains.

[T206Collector]

It is wonderful to see Sporting News supplements getting their due. I love how Doc Steen referred to them as “rotogravure photos.” Imagine being able to find those old printing plates today!

[Republicaninmass]

Other than a newspaper clipping, probably the lowest on my collectibility list.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

It is wonderful to see Sporting News supplements getting their due. I love how Doc Steen referred to them as “rotogravure photos.” Imagine being able to find those old printing plates today!

Wow, amazing piece and provenance!

The importance of Bill Carrigan to baseball and Babe Ruth in particular can’t be overstated…

‘The most important event of the 1914 season was the purchase, at Carrigan’s urging, of pitchers Ernie Shore and Babe Ruth from Baltimore of the International League. Although Ruth gave his skipper a lot of credit for his development as a player, Carrigan was humble in his own assessment: “Nobody could have made Ruth the great pitcher and great hitter he was but himself. He made himself with the aid of his God-given talents.” Old Rough did allow that his protégé needed quite a bit of discipline, and Carrigan was there to provide it, even rooming with Ruth for a time. Carrigan caught Ruth in his pitching debut, on July 11.’

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-carrigan/

[Prince Hal]

Are any of the players more rare to find than the others?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Wow, amazing piece and provenance!

The importance of Bill Carrigan to baseball and Babe Ruth in particular can’t be overstated…

‘The most important event of the 1914 season was the purchase, at Carrigan’s urging, of pitchers Ernie Shore and Babe Ruth from Baltimore of the International League. Although Ruth gave his skipper a lot of credit for his development as a player, Carrigan was humble in his own assessment: “Nobody could have made Ruth the great pitcher and great hitter he was but himself. He made himself with the aid of his God-given talents.” Old Rough did allow that his protégé needed quite a bit of discipline, and Carrigan was there to provide it, even rooming with Ruth for a time. Carrigan caught Ruth in his pitching debut, on July 11.’

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bill-carrigan/

Thanks su much for sharing. I think I had heard this story before, but I get confused by fellow T206 subject Jack Warhop who gave up Ruth's first and second home runs of his career.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Thanks su much for sharing. I think I had heard this story before, but I get confused by fellow T206 subject Jack Warhop who gave up Ruth's first and second home runs of his career.

For sure. Carrigan took Ruth under his wing and was a mentor/father figure to him. On top of that, Carrigan managed the Sox to back to back championships in 1915 and 1916.

[GregMitch34]

Prince Hal, it's hard to say on which are most rare because so many have been in hiding for so long. With no PSA grading, most were happy to collect a handful or try for the whole set. In fact, in past year, a good number of nearly full sets have gone to auction houses (sometimes 67/100 right up to 99/100). You can check PSA and BGS pop reports to see how many have been graded for each (although note again that PSA grading much much tougher on these and getting vast bulk of the grading for them now).

Two that come to mind with very few PSA graded are Joe Wood and Hal Chase but plenty of others. Few of the team cards graded by PSA so far. Most non-HOFers have one or none graded by PSA. We'll see if that changes but HOFers certainly more likely to get graded so far.

[Northviewcats]

Here are scans of a couple more. Chase and Wheat. I am not sure, but I don't think that I have seen this image of Zack Wheat throwing the ball anywhere else.

[nolemmings]

Actually Joe, Mendelsohn used that photo of Zach for his m101 cards, along with several others from m101-2, and it also served as the basis of his Cracker Jack cards. A classic for sure.


Here's one of my favorites that I bought over thirty years ago, with two HOF arbiters:

[GregMitch34]

Picked this up yesterday, especially hard to find in good condition Boston team, with Speaker and Wood, Hooper and Carrigan...that's Jake Stahl in center, I believe was manager.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1695055155

[The Detroit Collector]

The Evans/Klem is next on my list.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Actually Joe, Mendelsohn used that photo of Zach for his m101 cards, along with several others from m101-2, and it also served as the basis of his Cracker Jack cards. A classic for sure.


Here's one of my favorites that I bought over thirty years ago, with two HOF arbiters:

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Actually Joe, Mendelsohn used that photo of Zach for his m101 cards, along with several others from m101-2, and it also served as the basis of his Cracker Jack cards. A classic for sure.

Cracker Jack, yes! But check out the subtle differences in the M101-5, taken a millisecond later.

[GregMitch34]

Another fascinating angle is that many claim the Alexander and Schalk versions as their rookie "cards." And Alexander's sales value reflects this. Of course, others claim these are not "cards" so the dispute will go on. I believe there are also claims that the Speaker is his rookie "card." Here's a raw Alex with holes that just sold for $735 on ebay.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1695132683

[MGoBlue2007]

Does anyone know if psa will grade these if they have been glued to a paper backing?

[brunswickreeves]

PSA has rejected (No Grade result) cards which have evidence of scrapbook remanence affixed to even what seems a clean back.

[MGoBlue2007]

That sucks.. I sent it in today. Well.. I'm out $100.

[MGoBlue2007]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

PSA has rejected (No Grade result) cards which have evidence of scrapbook remanence affixed to even what seems a clean back.

Will Beckett grade with scrapbook remanence?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by MGoBlue2007

That sucks.. I sent it in today. Well.. I'm out $100.

If they reject it and refuse to grade it, they often won't charge you. There's probably some exceptions to this rule, but it has been my experience. For example, from time to time my pack-pulled 1987T are ruled to not meet the minimum size requirement, and they don't charge me.

So you might not actually be out $100 if they won't slab it.