Shattered in Shipping

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Posted By: John V

I received 2 SGC graded T205s today in the mail. Bought from a dealer on the west coast, one of them didn't survive the trip across the country. Each was packed in a 5x7 bubble envelope inside a 7x10 bubble envelope. Not especially sturdy packaging in my opinion. The items were not insured. That was entirely my choice/my fault. I have a couple of questions, both of which have no doubt been asked in this forum previously:

I thought I read here that SGC will re-slab for you at no cost?

Does eBay provide any protection for situations like this?

Thanks, John

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Posted By: Steve Murray

I think SGC charges a modest re-slab fee. $5.00 as I recall.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

Technically, isn't it the seller's responsibility to purchase insurance?

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Posted By: barrysloate

If the card isn't damaged then you are only out $5 plus some shipping fees. If it is damaged and you don't have insurance, you would need to work something out with the dealer if he is amenable.

I've had a couple of slabs broken on cards that I have shipped, and I picked up the fees to reslab both times. It's a courtesy to a customer.

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Posted By: James Gallo

I have NEVER seen anyone claim it would be the sellers responsibility to purchase insurance. Insurance is always the option of the buyer and at the buyer's cost.

Some people use there own insurance carrier but if the cards were not damaged then there would be no claim.

That being said this is one of the reasons why unless a buyer says they don't want priority mail I always ship my stuff packed well in a priority mail box. I have never had any problem.

I have received many slabbed cards in just a single mailer and only once did I have a problem. The seller refunded me the cost of the reslab and I would suspect that if you asked the dealer they might do the same.

That being said as you stated you choose not to get insurance, then again the packing wasn't the best IMO but not something totally out of the norm either.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Paul

In my opinion, its the sellers responsibility to make sure the buyer gets what they paid for. This stuff about the seller not being responsible is a bunch of crap. I don't know what the law/legal responsibilities are, & I don't care. Treat your customers with care & respect.

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Posted By: Chris Diaz

Ebay won't help you, but I think Paypal would if you opened a claim/dispute. Despite what sellers put in their auction description, insurance is the sellers responsibility. The seller is the one that files a claim should something happen and it is their job to get the item to you as described. I would contact the seller first to try and resolve it civilly and hope the person has good customer service. If that fails, I would say file a claim because I believe you would win. I have been on both ends of a situation like this.

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Posted By: Eric B

Sorry James. But it is always the shippers responsibility for an item to get to the buyer and have it undamaged. Ebay even states it in their terms of use. If you buy something from Amazon or JC Penney and it doesn't arrive or is damaged, do you accept that?

Buyers paying for insurance is usually a waste. But I sometimes do it when I get a really good deal so the seller doesn't reneg and say it must have got lost.

But the original post makes me wonder why a bubble mailer within a bubble mailer is not a good idea. Seems like good protection to me. What happened?

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Posted By: leon

When I ship anything, personal or from auction, it is always my responsibility to package carefully, or I pay. I have indeed had a few things damaged, when I shipped, and I always (only probably 2-3 times) have taken care of it. Now, if there IS insurance then I would go there first....but for any reason if my package contents gets damaged it's on me, imo. regards

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Posted By: boxingcardman

But stuff happens in transit. I once had a cracked PSA slabbed card returned to me with what were clearly tire tracks across the package. That's why there is insurance.

As far as who owes what, if the seller offered insurance (which would cover damage in transit, BTW) and stated that he is not responsible for a loss in transit if the buyer declines insurance, I don't see what the buyer who then declines insurance would have to complain about if the item was damaged in transit. He was offered coverage for the risk, he refused it, and he lost his gamble. This attitude of "I didn't want to pay for insurance but I still want my loss insured if something goes wrong" baffles me. If you are offered a service and you refuse to accept it because you don't want to pay for it, how do you figure you are entitled to it regardless?

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: John V

The slab was damaged on the edge. Think in terms of the package being tomahawked in transit. The cracks spread from the edge to both sides of the slab.

Also, there is no attitude. I'm just interested in knowing my options, primarily with eBay & SGC. John

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Posted By: Anonymous

Send the card in to SGC, pay their fee to reslab it, and next time purchase the insurance. It eludes me why you would be looking to SGC or ebay to make you whole.

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Posted By: John V

Geez. Don't be eluded. As stated previously, I am just curious about options or courtesies available for an unfortunate situation.

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Posted By: Robert Dixon

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would a buyer pay for insurance when it is the seller's responsibility to deliver the card in the condition that it was purchased in? I don't think that offering insurance releases the seller of their liability.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Ummm...the seller is responsible for properly packing and shipping the card. The reason insurance is offered is due to items being damaged or lost during shipping which in most cases will have absolutely nothing to do with the seller.

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Posted By: Joe Hunter

As a seller, I had this exact same thing happen a couple of months ago. A PSA card was damaged in delivery by USPS. After the buyer contacted me, I gave him the option of returning the card for a refund, or returning the card for a reholder. He chose to get it reholdered, which I did. I lost a little money on the deal, but the buyer was happy and left positive feedback. I usually offer insurance when I sell, but if it is a particularly expensive card, I will go ahead and purchase insurance, even if the buyer doesn't-just for the peace of mind. I have started putting slabbed cards between two pieces of rigid cardboard, then placing it in a bubble mailer. I think the cardboard provides the extra protection needed, in most cases. As far as who is responsible for damaged merchandise, if the seller offers insurance and the buyer declines, then it should, in principle, be the buyer's responsibility; whether this is the case legally or in the eyes of Paypal, I really don't know.

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Posted By: Jason Carota

I have to disagree, James G. Buy putting the responsibility of insurance on the buyer, you are basically saying that they (the buyer) are responsible for getting the package to themselves in a safe manner.

For the most part, all seller's "sub contract" their shipping to the USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc. . Just as in the contracting world, any damage liability from subs fall on the general contractor (in this case, the seller.)

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Posted By: Mike Navarro

If you bought the items on ebay AND paid via paypal and meet the necessary time deadlines, then you can file a Significantly Not as Described claim through paypal, you will be responsible for shipping back to the seller, and you will receive your money back from paypal (but not your return shipping).

If the seller did not disclose in his/her auction that the item you would receive would be shattered, then you will win the SNAD claim whether you purchased insurance or not.

Doesn't matter if it's right, wrong, or indifferent, that's just how it works. Ebay sellers agree to abide by ebay's terms to use their venue, and if they don't understand their responsibilities under that, they shouldn't be selling on ebay.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

By offering an insurance option and stating that the risk of loss passes to the buyer if the item is shipped uninsured, the parties are allocating the risk of loss in transit. If the buyer wants to take on the risk, he doesn't buy insurance. If he wants to pass the risk of loss to the seller or carrier, he takes the insurance. It hardly seems fair to me to make the seller buy the insurance at his expense every time or absorb the risk of loss in transit, unless you also accept that a seller will then have the right to mandate insurance in every listing, which is something I know a lot of buyers hate on lesser cost cards.

I wasn't commenting on the attitude of the original poster, BTW; I think he had it right accepting that he'd taken the risk by not opting to insure. I was commenting on the propensity of other posters to take a "heads I win, tails you lose" perspective on the situation.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Steve

Paypal would if you opened a claim/dispute. Despite what sellers put in their auction description, insurance is the sellers responsibility.


Bingo, insurance protects the seller, not the buyer regardless
of what sellers want to say. Especially if you paid with Paypal.

Now if you paid with a MO and or check the seller can hold you to it.

Sellers also can't charge for insurance ala carte and self insure.

They can include insurance in the shipping cost and self insure.

Steve

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Posted By: Robert Klevens

Shipping a slabbed card in an envelope is too risky. I bought these boxes that measure 6x6x1. They work great for sending a couple of slabbed cards.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

is a normal part of commercial life. I do not understand why applying the same model to bsaeball cards is problematic, but since it raises such hackles, let's assume it out and see what happens. Let's assume that the card gods decree that sellers must accept all risks of transit, as many here suggest is the golden rule. I think it is only fair to then require the buyer who insists on that rule to pay the real cost of compliance. The seller will have to demand a trackable, sturdy package with full value insurance for all items sold, yielding a system where shipping a $50 card costs you eight bucks for an insured, sturdy boxed shipment. If that is not an attractive prospect and you would prefer to have the opportunity to allocate the risk and reduce your costs of acquisition for the 99%+ of times that the USPS does a good job and gets the card to you intact in the bubble holder for three bucks or less, that's great too, but that requires the buyer to accept the risk of loss and bear it when something happens, especially if the seller leaves the decision to the buyer. Again, I come back to freedom of choice: if you choose and lose, you should bear the loss. I had this recently happen when I won an auction at the dead minimum $5 bid and the seller tried to charge me $8+ to ship the card boxed, insured, tracked, etc. I emailed the seller and told him no way, accepted the risk of loss, and was charged a reasonable cost for packing and mailing. Had the card been lost or damaged I'd not have been here whining about the unfairness because I decided not to pay for a boxed, insured shipment.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: leon

I should clarify that my shipping scenario above (shipper is responsible) would be if shipping wasn't mentioned at all. I feel it is then encumbent on the shipper to get the goods to the buyer in the shape they were contracted for. I don't think I have ever (knock on wood) had a problem in this area that wasn't worked out satisfactorily to both sides.

edited spellin'....thanks Barry...

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm looking at "encumbant" but remaining silent.

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Posted By: James Gallo

We are on the same page, and I agree 100%. There are few industries that I have been in when someone so often cheapens out on the shipping. You buy a $50 card and instead of paying 6 to ship it in a box, you pay 3 to ship in a bubble mailer. Never makes sense to me.

Often I have won cards under 50 and asked the seller to ship priority with insurance and I have paid extra for it. This is because I want my but covered and over the last year I have had 2 cards vanish on me. In one case the seller refunded me but it took forever and the other case I was not refunded and lost out.

So lets say in this case the card was damaged, who is responsibile for that loss the buyer who refused insurance or the seller that did everything "right".

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Bilko G

"So lets say in this case the card was damaged, who is responsibile for that loss the buyer who refused insurance or the seller that did everything "right"."


Its ALWAYS the sellers responsibility to get the item to the buyer. Buyers who purchase insurance are just wasting their money. If the item arrives damaged it is always the sellers responsibility and paypal will side with the buyer 100% of the time. Whether you think that is fair or not, that is paypal's rules.

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Posted By: Mike Navarro

Boxingcardman,

While I agree with your logic on how it should be in a Utopian environment, that is NOT the case on ebay/paypal. The seller has a responsibility to get the item to their buyer in the condition it was auctioned and advertised in if they received paypal as payment. They are "contracting" a different set of rules when they agree to use ebay/paypal. Might those rules be court enforceable, or would other laws such as the UCC prevail? Perhaps, or perhaps not, but on relatively small transactions, it would not be worth the hassle or costs involved to find out for most sellers.

The seller apparently played the "I'll make the insurance optional so perhaps the potential buyer will see a lower overall cost and bid on my auction instead of my competition's auction" and they lost. Paypal will make the buyer whole in a paypal transaction. (yes, I realize we don't know if the original poster paid with paypal or not)

Mike

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Posted By: Steve F

Being the 'Sellers' responsibility to get their widgets to our homes is the easiest policy to enforce. I just filed a dispute. My new gps mount, cracked during shipping -no padding whatsoever. Ain't no way I'm eating this one.

There are far more potential buyers than sellers and if it were policed any other way, then ebaY wouldn't have become a Goliath.

I can live with the guidline. Unfortunately for myself and others,for requiring mandatory insurance and Priority mailing on most cards... We get gigged for 'excessive' shipping charges through ebaY's DSR system. Again, not a biggy. It has protected me as a buyer far more than it's hurt as a seller.

Regardless of the Policy, it's the right thing to do -if you're a sensible seller. The risk of a negative here is too great. His packaging was too soft. Each slabs should have been sandwiched between cardboard, especially in these cold days when plastics can crack easily. If the cards themselves are unharmed, I would respectfully demand a reslab/reimbursement. Good luck

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Posted By: Steve

Adam it is only the golden rule because paypal says it is.

Steve

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Posted By: boxingcardman

I get it now...the unfair, constantly complained of Paypal rules mandate that a seller bear all risk of the transaction. Fine with me. I'll just jack up my shipping to match.



Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: Steve

No, the buyer can pay for it. Instead of charging 3.00 to ship a 50.00 card

charge 5.00 and insure it. Don't leave it up to the buyer as an option.

I still do, (leave it as an option) if the buyer declines and I feel it needs

insurance I pay for it. That way I am covered by the aforementioned Paypal

rules. Many sellers include insurance within the shipping charges.


The only problem with insurance is then getting the Postal service to pay off.

The item needs to be packed properly. Some clerks tell me that a bubble

mailer is not sufficent, yet many will sell the insurance for the same bubble

mailed item.


I usually ship and pray.


Steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

Independent of the whole insurance thing, which several posters in past years stated that the shipper files the claim and that it is not worth the price paid, I think

1. It is in eBay/Paypal's interest to enforce their condition that the buyer receive goods in conditions promised - the condition encourages buyers to bid higher and use Paypal. Sellers who do not realize this or who seek to offer a menu of shipping services are free riding on the reputation built by eBay/Paypal enforcement of that condition.

2. Too often, I buy something on eBay and the shipping supplies used in shipment are minimal and substandard and contribute to damage. The seller may or may not have charged fees for top of the line packing materials, but I have recently received many items with little packing protection.

3. See 1 and 2 for why I am relectant to buy from sellers outside of eBay.

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Posted By: Steve

M Mac

Actually either party can file the claim, both have to sign it though.

I made a customer of mine deal with the PO when the item I sent was confirmed

delivered and must have been stolen from his mail box.

I simply printed out the form at the US Postal site, signed it and sent him

the various other forms he needed. Had the item been delivered broken

or not at all I would have done the legwork myself.


Steve