THE 50 HR CLUB...a very telling list.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan McCarthy

The Adrian Beltre thing is really weird... he had 50 more hits and batted 60 points higher in '04 than he did in basically any other season. I don't think that steroid use improves hand-eye coordination, so I have no idea how to account for the improved avg and hits. His walk/strikeout numbers of '04 don't really differ from any other season, so it's not like he had any greater mastery of the strike zone. Maybe he was just lucky? Or maybe I'm wrong about the hand-eye thing?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Macdonald

I like The Onion's take on recent baseball history

http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/turns_out_craig_counsell

[ScottFandango]

lookslike we may be adding another name to the list this year

PUJOLS....

i think he will definately be on the top part of the list@!

so does Bill James who thinks Pujols may be the Best right handed hitter ever!

[philliesphan]

It's too early to tell on Pujols. No one is arguing his greatness -- but he still doesn't have enough years in the majors to qualify for the HOF.

Howard is not a PED user. There are a lot of question marks on the bottom half of the list, but we should not forget that there can be strong home run hitters today...and not associate everyone on that list with steroids.

[ScottFandango]

i just drew the line on the chronological list....its not a list of users or non users.....some on the bottom list ARE clean...

PS I really enjoyed reading through this thread...great comments...

[FrankWakefield]

I think Pujols is a genuine ballplayer.

Howard in the same sentence with Pujols, no way. He's a good, solid player. But Howard has 199 home runs in 6 seasons, 565 RBI's, hitting .276, OBP of .375, slugging .582.

And you put that up there with 351 home runs in 9 seasons, 1062 RBI's, .335 average, .428 OBP, and .631 slugging. If Howard hits about .460 each of his next 3 seasons, bangs out about 51 home runs and 160+ RBI's each of those seasons, then he'll reach where Pujols is now. Not gonna happen.

[philliesphan]

Frank-

In no way was I trying to compare Ryan Howard's stats to Albert Pujols. They are sluggers of a different class. Scott was talking about Pujols...and I, as a Phillies Phan, wanted to bring up one of the non-PED users on the bottom half of the list.

To be clear on Howard, though -- it is a tad unfair to say he's played "6 seasons". He was a September call-up in 2003, played half of 2004, and has only played half of 2009. He only has enough games under his belt equivalent to four full seasons. Pujols, on the other hand, has played 8 full seasons coming into this year.

[FrankWakefield]

Hey Marc,

You are right about Howard only having a tiny piece of that first season, that does make the comparison slightly unfair. He hits home runs to all fields, and averages one HR every 12.1 at bats. That is better than Pujols' one HR every 13.9 at bats. I think I'm still about right on Howard needing to hit .460 with about 50 home runs to catch up.

Would it not be neat to see the two on the same team, I'd bat Albert 3rd and Ryan 4th. And I'd let the pitcher hit 8th....

I saw Joseph Blanton pitch once during his senior year in high school, he attended the little high school here in my home town. So I cheer your Phils on from time to time!!

[glynparson]

That Pujols used PED's and If we could bet and have god give us the answer I would put my whole collection on the line that he absolutley used. In fact according to Peter Gammons on Mike & Mike about a year ago one of Albert's best friends, a personal trainer of his I believe, was caught with PED's. I always hoped certain players were clean that ended up dirty, so I understand his fans burying their heads in the sand and pretending he is above questioning. Also on Howard he tied the Reading Phillies, I live in the Reading area, Minor league home run record in a partial season. Luzinski is tie with Ryan, also Howard hit balls further then anyone I ever saw hit them at Reading Municipal Stadium, some of the older fans have told me The Bull was the only other player to reach some of the distances Howard did. So he may or may not have done PED's but to me I have much more doubt about him then Pujols.

[DeanH3]

I too would not be surprised if Pujols used PEDs. It's hard to compare pictures of Pujols when he came up to now like we do with Bonds and Sosa, skinny rookies to ripped record setting vets. Pujols came up when PED's were used extensively and maybe he was already using them in the minors making him big as a rookie. I have always wondered about players who wear really baggy uniforms, Bonds, Manny, Pujols, McGwire and Sosa. What are those guys hiding. If it were really "more comfortable" then it would have been done years ago. Maybe these guys don't want Joe Public to see how really ripped they look. I really do hope Pujols is clean. Baseball needs a legit superstar but come on, with what we know now, do you really expect Pujols to be clean?

[packs]

Albert came out today and said he'd repay the Cardinals every penny of the contract money he's ever received if he was ever found to be cheating. I never heard anyone else say such a thing that comes close to that conviction besides Lance Armstrong.

As for Griffey, you could just watch the guy swing and know he could hit 50. Clean player in my opinion.

[dennis]

[QUOTE=packs;735758]Albert came out today and said he'd repay the Cardinals every penny of the contract money he's ever received if he was ever found to be cheating. I never heard anyone else say such a thing that comes close to that conviction besides Lance Armstrong.
QUOTE]

i heard raffey palmiero say it with conviction and before the senate.

[ScottFandango]

Pujols didnt "toil" in the minors...he made a short 1 year stay and went from single A to the AAA world series MVP in one year....he never needed to do steroids.....he was the most dominant player (by far) at ever step since he was 12 (when he hit a ball 450 ft)

In hindsight, Steroid usage becomes obvious on a personal timeline...a player has a spike for a few years, then falls off fast....a player becomes Huge seemingly overnight....In pujols timeline, there is not place where steroids would make sense....

and as far as his baggy clothes, if you ever saw his biceps, they are a bit flabby... large and thick but NOT cut AT ALL....doesnt even look like he works out...Bonds and Mcgwire looked like Muscle Mag cover freaks!


In this day and age, the best players are going to be under suspicion, which is unfortunate for the clean few......we may be watching the best right handed hitter EVER (Bill James thinks so) so lets enjoy!

[rdixon1208]

You couldn't convince me that he's not or hasn't been on the juice. No way.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

You couldn't convince me that he's not or hasn't been on the juice. No way.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

please ellaborate...its very interesting to me to try and figure out why people think Pujolsis on juice....

i never heard a good reason except:

1. he is just too good to be natural
2. everyone else is doing it....

PLEASE MR DIXON ELLABORATE

ps

DID anyone see Pujols Labor in the HR derby? ! Glad he didnt win as Derby winners are associated with Steroids even moreso

[JK]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

he was the most dominant player (by far) at ever step since he was 12 (when he hit a ball 450 ft)

Wasn't Pujols drafted in the 13th round?

Regardless, I personally do not think that Pujols is juicing - its always interesting to me when people take the guilty until proven innocent approach to steriod use. Its as if, despite 100 plus years of baseball history and star players performing extraordinary feats on a baseball field, these folks think its no longer possible for a player to be that good without PEDs.

[packs]

I'm with you JK. As I said in my first post, you could just watch Griffey swing at air and know he was going to be one of the greatest hitters of all time. I don't see why a player can't be supremely talented anymore. If Nolan Ryan or Koufax came up today would you guys assume they were on the juice too just because they were once in a generation players?

I admit I didn't see A-rod or Manny coming. Maybe I should have. But to me Pujols looks like a clean player. One reason I believe that is because the guy never seems to be hamming it up in the spotlight or even seeking it. He just goes out and plays the game every day. I never hear an arrogant sound bite.

[rdixon1208]

I can't take an "Innocent until proven guilty" approach to players who put up huge numbers during the steroid era. Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, and many many many many more....all on the juice.

So really, my only case against Pujols is that everyone else is doing it. I don't need absolute proof to base my opinion on. If a player played in the steroid era, has a really muscular build, and puts up huge numbers, he's on the juice....in my opinion. You couldn't convince me otherwise.

[drc]

Please note there is no such thing as innocent until proven guilty. The "presumed innocent until proven guilty" is for the purposes of the court of law. Of course someone could have committed an act, even if others can't prove it.

Secondly, note that in a court of law the judge or jury doesn't never says you're "innocent." If cleared of the charges, they find you "not guilty." The law is perfectly well aware the system can and does let free people who committed the crime.

Lastly, note that neither Adolf Hitler nor John Wilkes Booth were never found guilty in a court of law during their last times. Obviously we (or most) don't use this as proof that they were innocent of their alleged crimes. People have used information and facts and testimony beyond the walls of a courtroom to come to the learned judgments that they were guilty.

In short, as far as the truth goes, there is no such thing as 'innocent until proven guilty.' On ESPN and FoxSports chatboards, it's not only a lazy (but convenient) misquote of what they law says and means, but the phrase is nonsensical when read literally. Not only that, but 99.9 percent of people, including those ESPN chatboard posters defending Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds, disagree with the literal interpretation of that phrase. The literal reading is on the order of saying "A woman isn't pregnant until the moment the doctor tells her she is pregnant. Thus, a woman who never sees a doctor can never be pregnant."

[mannybb24]

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.

[ScottFandango]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.
He is also named in the Jason Grimsley case where Grimsley named Clemens, Pettite and a few others. Pujols' personal trainer and close friend was Grimsley's connection to roid's supposedly.

100% False....

i would edit that cause tha borders on slander........Grimsley's named trainer that was originally redacted was found out to be none other than Brian McNamee....

get your facts straight before you spout off lies on a public message board....

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by ScottFandango

[/b]

100% False....

i would edit that cause tha borders on slander........Grimsley's named trainer that was originally redacted was found out to be none other than Brian McNamee....

get your facts straight before you spout off lies on a public message board....

You can forgive him a little bit for that because it was all over the news and internet before the story was found to be false and as such still permeates the internet as most news organizations did very little to correct the mistake.

[mannybb24]

My bad guys if I was wrong.
I heard it on the radio just 2 days ago on the Score in Chicago that Pujols name was for some reason black out in the Jason Grimsley case so that is why I made the comment. I never heard that this was not true.
I have deleted that part of my message reply.
Very sorry if I offended anyone. I usually do not post, I like to look from afar and that's what I will do from now on.

[JK]

Originally Posted by drc

Lastly, note that neither Adolf Hitler nor John Wilkes Booth were never found guilty in a court of law during their last times. Obviously we (or most) don't use this as proof that they were innocent of their alleged crimes. People have used information and facts and testimony beyond the walls of a courtroom to come to the learned judgments that they were guilty.

Sort of a ridiculous assertion to support your argument considering neither individual was ever tried before a court of law don't you think? Perhaps OJ would be a better example. Regardless, I find it simply beyond comprehension how anyone can argue that a player cannot be great today without using PEDs and yet believe that players in the non-steriod era were capable of such greatness. Heck, I'd even be willing to bet there were players with muscular builds in the non-steriod era.

[JK]

Originally Posted by mannybb24

Pujols in college was stocky, almost fat, that is why he lasted till the 13th round. Scouts thought he had a bad body but knew he could hit.
All of a sudden, he shot through the Cardinals system in a year and then he's winning the ROY. Hmmmm.
I'm not saying he did or is doing stuff but when I saw him play in Appleton when he was in A ball with the Peoria Chiefs, just out of Community College and he was big and lean all of a sudden.

This isnt entirely accurate either. Pujols was drafted late not only because he was stocky, but also because he was considered slow, there were questions regarding his true age and some questions regarding whether he could transition from aluminum to wood bats. One thing that has been constant all along, however, has been that he has hit with power. He was also a top 100 prospect out of high school. See the following links for more detail:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...rry&id=2894316

"But some scouts considered him too chunky and "heavy legged,'' and there were rumblings that he might be older than advertised. He played at Maple Woods Community College in Kansas City, and St. Louis scouting director John Mozeliak, at the urging of scouts Mike Roberts and Dave Karaff, saw him at a college tournament in Wichita and thought he was worth a shot. The Cards signed Pujols for a reported $60,000 and sent him to the instructional league in Jupiter, Fla. In his first at-bat, Pujols hit a ground ball up the middle. The next time up, he launched a shot off the roof of a building beyond the left field fence."



.......

and:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...that_got_away/

"``First of all," Jacobs said, ``his body wasn't great back then. Plus, people weren't sure how old the guy was. You assumed what he told you was true, but he wasn't a great body, and his swing was a little long.

``But he had big-time power, and you can't walk away from that kind of power. You do your homework, you study his aptitude, you figure you can fine-tune his swing and get his body better. His hands were very good for his size, and he had a good arm, playing shortstop.""

[DeanH3]

I'm not saying I'm convinced Pujols is juicing. I really do hope he is clean. Pujols comes off as a humble guy that is respectful of the games past. I like him. But having said that I would not be the least bit surprised if he has. And that goes for everybody else that has played during this era not just Pujols. Unfortunately everybody that is successful will always be doubted to a certain degree. Yes I think that is unfair. But that is today's reality.

[chaddurbin]

a writer did name pujols in an interview i heard (along with others like randy johnson etc)...i didn't care enough to remember since i just assumed if you're playing in the late 90's and early 2000's and ur clean...that means you weren't trying.

...and ryan howard wishes he was half the hitter pujols is, pujols would legit hit 60hrs every year in philly....wake me up when howard can hit a slider from a loogy lefty.

[ScottFandango]

thanks for posting those...

[mannybb24]

you're cool man

[packs]

I've noticed that with a lot of the big name players who have been named, most of them (McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, A-rod, Manny) want or wanted desperately to be "The Best" and were spotlight seekers. But I don't get that vibe at all from Albert. I don't live in St. Louis, but it seems like you rarely ever hear a sound bite from him. If he was really so deadset on being the best ever and cheating to do it, why then does he not seek the credit or adoration?