W517 set issued in 1930, not 1931, and reissued in 1932

[brianp-beme]

The W517 strip set is an interesting issue, not only because of its unusually large size but also that it was issued during a stretch of time that does not include many issues. It has always been identified as being issued in 1931. However when examining team designations of the players in the set, in conjunction with the records of players that changed teams during the late 1920's and early 1930's, it becomes evident that this issue was almost positively produced in 1930, and was reissued in a much more limited fashion in 1932, possibly not the full set.

The complete set of W517 cards consists of 54 cards, and additionally there are 5 variation cards, 4 involving team changes (Chalmer Cissell, George Kelly, Chick Hafey and Lefty O'Doul), and one that involves numbering (Paul Waner has a numbered card, like all of the other cards in the set, and an unnumbered variation). The team change variations are the cards that point to a reissue date of 1932, but I will get back to that. First we will deal with the long accepted 1931 date for this set, and why it is much more likely that it was instead originally released sometime in 1930.

Many players depicted in the set changed teams during the 1929 through 1931 stretch. Cards of some of these players are some of the evidence that I have come across that indicate, unless the makers were extremely sloppy, that this original issue date was 1930.

First off are players that preclude this set from being issued in 1929 or before. The card of Harry Heilmann has the Reds team designation. He was purchased after the 1929 baseball season by the Reds on 10/14/1929. Bob Meusel is also shown with a team designation of the Reds. He was traded to the Reds on 10/17/1929. More conclusively, both Grover Alexander and Sammy Hale were traded on 12/11/1929 to the teams that are shown on their cards, Alexander to the Phillies, Hale to the Browns. These cards therefore point to a 1930 issue date at the earliest.

Secondly are the players that were traded during the 1930 season. There were 6 players depicted in the W517 set that were traded or released during the months of May, June and July 1930. All 6 of these players are shown with team designations of the team they started in the 1930 season. Hugh Critz is shown with the Reds, but was traded to the Giants on 5/21/1930. Pete Donohue is shown with the Reds, but was traded to Giants as well on 5/27/1930. Heinie Manush is shown with the Browns, but was traded to the Senators of 6/16/1930. Art Shires is shown with the White Sox, but was traded to the Browns on 6/16/1930. Bill Sherdel is shown with the Cardinals, but was traded to the Braves on 6/16/1930, the same day as Shires was traded. Finally, George Kelly is shown with the Reds, but was released on 7/10/1930. He was picked up by the Cubs on 8/18/1930 and played the rest of the season with them.

If the W517 was indeed issued originally in 1931, then the producers of the set were not on top of the mid-season team changes that are indicated above, nor did they catch the post 1930 season trade of Lefty O'Doul (shown with the Phillies) to the Dodgers on 10/14/1930, or the release of Joe Sewell by the Indians, the team designated on his card, on 1/20/1931, and that the Yankees picked him up on 1/24/1931. Certainly all of this is possible, but still leads one to logically believe instead that this set was issued in 1930 instead. Further evidence includes players such as Edd Roush. He was with Giants in 1929 and his card designates him as a Giant. He held out for the entire 1930 season, and was picked up on waivers by the Reds on 3/26/1931. This surely indicates that an early 1930 issue date is the more likely choice. The aforementioned George Kelly, after the second half of the season spent with the Cubs, was not in the MLB during the 1931 season, after being released by the Cubs in February of 1931. Furthermore, players such as Eddie Collins, Grover Alexander, Cy Williams and Bob Meusel ended their major league careers after the 1930 season. All of this evidence definitely points to the 1930 issue date as much more likely, and narrowing the timeline down to the first half of 1930 reasonable.

Now for the variations and reissue date. These 4 cards are much tougher to come by, indicating a limited release involving these cards. The team variation cards point to a re-issue date of sometime after April of 1932 due to the timing of the trades involving the players, and the new team designations shown on the card.

The more common card of Lefty O'Doul shows him with the Phillies. As indicated above, he was traded to the Dodgers on 10/14/1930. His variation card shows him with the Dodgers. If he were the only player with a team change, one might believe that the updated card was probably produced in 1931. However the other three player's variation cards point to a 1932 re-issue date. To start with, George Kelly, as mentioned before, was depicted as a Red, was released by the Reds on 7/10/1930, picked up the Cubs on 8/18/1930, and released by them in February of 1931, and did not play in the MLB in 1931. He was picked up on 4/7/1932 by the Dodgers, and is shown as a Dodger on his variation card. Chick Hafey, whose original W517 card shows him as a member of the Cardinals, was traded to the Reds on 4/11/1932, the team shown on the tougher variation. Finally, Chalmer Cissell, originally depicted with the White Sox, was traded to the Indians on 4/24/1932, which proves that these tougher variations were probably all issued in May of 1932 or later.

It is also quite possible that only a portion of the 54 card set was re-issued during this 1932 print run, because certain players were traded during the 1931 season and off season, but were not updated like the four cards indicated above. Willie Kamm and Lew Fonseca, both incluced in the W517 set, were traded for each on 5/17/1931, but only have cards depicting them with their previous team. Hack Wilson, shown as a Cub, was traded to the Cardinals on 12/11/1931, and then traded to the Dodgers on 1/20/1932, but was not updated.

So welcome to the newly designated 1930/1932 W517 set. Since there was a lack of sets issued during this period anyway, I do not believe this affects any Rookie card status. It does make the cards of Eddie Collins and Grover Alexander to be issued during their playing career instead of post-career, as the 1931 date would make them. Additional comments and criticism welcome!

Brian

[edhans]

Nice research, Brian.

[DeanH3]

Well done Brian. I've always found this set intriguing since, like you pointed out, there's not much available during that time.

[SMPEP]

Great job, Brian! Very good insights here.

Cheers,
Patrick

[Leon]

Great research. Well done.

[glynparson]

Sounds logical to me from your research.

[JRO$!(]

Thanks very much for your research. You are like a baseball card detective!

[triwak]

Great stuff, and very interesting! I have the Dodgers version of George Kelly, and it is also the "green" tinted variety - which I've heard carries a bit of a premium. Is it possible that ALL of the green tinted cards are from the 1932 reissue??

[egbeachley]

Couldn’t it be possible that these strip cards had a very low budget and there was no such thing as a “quick turnaround”? Maybe they had players chosen and pictures provided by mid-1930 and it took until the following year before they were published. Or maybe even more likely is that the manufacturer waiting until their other stock ran out and by then it was 1931. Hard to prove.

Maybe Barry can recall if he bought them in 1930 or 1931.

[brianp-beme]

Thanks for all the comments so far. As mentioned previously, the era that the W517 was issued in (whether 1930, 1931 or 1932) had few cards produced. Another cool thing about the set is that 34 (32 different) of the 54 cards in the basic set are Hall of Fame players, and the set includes the two biggest names with Babe Ruth (2 cards) and Lou Gehrig. A further feature are the various tints, with Green and Sepia being the two most common. Definitely great cards that almost always go for a lower price compared to ones issued a few years later.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by triwak

Great stuff, and very interesting! I have the Dodgers version of George Kelly, and it is also the "green" tinted variety - which I've heard carries a bit of a premium. Is it possible that ALL of the green tinted cards are from the 1932 reissue??

Ken, the Green tinted cards are somewhat commonly found, and I believe are available for all cards issued.

However, I have never previously considered the tint on all the scarcer 1932 variation cards, which the George Kelly Dodgers is an example. Briefly searching, I only have located green tints for all the team change variation cards: Chalmer Cissell-Cleveland, George Kelly-Brooklyn, Chick Hafey-Cincinnati, Lefty O'Doul-Brooklyn.

To me it makes sense that these much tougher to come by variations would only be in one tint, because of a limited production run.

Does someone else have a different tint for any of these variation cards?

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Couldn’t it be possible that these strip cards had a very low budget and there was no such thing as a “quick turnaround”? Maybe they had players chosen and pictures provided by mid-1930 and it took until the following year before they were published. Or maybe even more likely is that the manufacturer waiting until their other stock ran out and by then it was 1931. Hard to prove. Maybe Barry can recall if he bought them in 1930 or 1931.

Let's leave Barry's early 1930's purchasing habits out of this conversation. But seriously, you make valid points. First of all, if you check out the images they are typically from an earlier time, as many cards feature players in uniforms from teams they were on prior to the one identified on the card. I guess that all that my research can conclusively prove is that they were not produced until early 1930, and that the variations must have been produced after April of 1932.

It is possible that all the cards were not produced until 1932. I still think, however, that my evidence points to an original production of these cards in 1930, which of course assumes a somewhat timely production and the belief that the makers cared enough about putting out cards with relatively up to date player team identification.

Your points are valid, and unless we get Barry to talk, we might never know.

Brian

[spec]

Brian,
Thanks for your research and interesting speculation. I have had the potential W517 variations on my wantlist for decades without finding any team changes beyond the four you listed. Guess I can stop looking now.
By the way, all four of my team-change cards are green print.
B0b Rich@rds0n

[Leon]

Nice thoughts on the subject, Brian. I wish I could add to your exhaustive research but no such luck. All I can do is add a few pics of some W517s I used to have... Good luck in the quest for further information. I have always thought the bright red ones are rather striking. The bottom card, a trimmed ad back Ruth is correct size (well, minus borders) though the scan is larger.

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Ken, the Green tinted cards are somewhat commonly found, and I believe are available for all cards issued.

However, I have never previously considered the tint on all the scarcer 1932 variation cards, which the George Kelly Dodgers is an example. Briefly searching, I only have located green tints for all the team change variation cards: Chalmer Cissell-Cleveland, George Kelly-Brooklyn, Chick Hafey-Cincinnati, Lefty O'Doul-Brooklyn.

To me it makes sense that these much tougher to come by variations would only be in one tint, because of a limited production run.

Does someone else have a different tint for any of these variation cards?

Brian

[h2oya311]

Excellent research! You are correct that it doesn’t impact any rookie designations by moving the date back one year. Thanks for the thoughtful and diligent post!

[bxb]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Ken, the Green tinted cards are somewhat commonly found, and I believe are available for all cards issued.

To me it makes sense that these much tougher to come by variations would only be in one tint, because of a limited production run

Does someone else have a different tint for any of these variation cards?

Brian

Here's my Kelly variation. I would say yellow to light brown tint, no green:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1527530150

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by bxb

Here's my Kelly variation. I would say yellow to light brown tint, no green:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1527530150

Hi Larry, thanks for showing your Kelly card. It brings up what tinting means for this set. For example green tinted cards, like the Ruth and the strip of 3 cards shown by Leon, are designated as such due to the coloration of the player photo, especially evident in the photo's background, and not the cardstock, which is typically found in a creamy, lightish brown like your example, which is indeed a nice card. It is to be noted that this greenish tinting can range quite widely between cards, such as seen in your Kelly and the Kelly shown previously by Ken.

Brian

[triwak]

Yeah Larry, I would definitely say your's is the sepia version. Interesting that your's has the "Strike Out" on top, while my green tinted one does not (I don't think our top borders are that different). Strange set, indeed!!

[brianp-beme]

Hi Ken, I do believe his more greenish than sepia. Here is an example of a sepia tint card. Tinting is always a tough one to determine...I have had my issues in the past with the gray and the green tints of the D310 set.

Brian

[triwak]

Brian, upon further inspection, I believe you're correct. Larry's IS more greenish.

[brianp-beme]

Nothing new to add, but I gave this thread a bump just because I was recently thinking about the W517 set and thought others who hadn't seen this thread might think it semi-interesting.

Brian

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for bumping this thread...I missed it the first time around.

Interesting observation on the potential initial release followed up by an "update" release in 1932.

I'm currently slowly trying to put this one together as I find it to be a pretty interesting set. On top of the true variations (team names, numbering) as well as the color tints and stock variations, you can also find them with and without the baseball terms at the top (strike out, 1st Base, etc.) as well as mini versions. Not to mention the ones that have a colored stripe on the back at the bottom since they were part of the "Championship Draw" game at candy stores.

I'm just trying to complete a basic set on a limited budget with whatever varieties I can. While most of the time I try to go after cards in VG/EX to EX condition, I'll take just about any condition for these.

Here's a couple pictures of my progress so far. I have about 15 cards so far. It's nice to have one Ruth checked off the list, but still need the SECOND Ruth, the Gehrig, the Hack Wilson, the Hornsby, etc., etc. It's going to take me awhile

w5171.jpg

w5172.jpg

[Lobo Aullando]

Cool starter set. I'm half tempted to give it a go myself, but I know I need to not spread myself too thin again.

And what is this game? I did a quick search, but didn't see anything from the Thirties.

Originally Posted by thatkidfromjerrymaguire

Not to mention the ones that have a colored stripe on the back at the bottom since they were part of the "Championship Draw" game at candy stores.

[BabyRuth]

I think the toughest card for me for the 60 card master set was the O'Doul Brooklyn. Here's a few of mine:

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by Lobo Aullando

And what is this game? I did a quick search, but didn't see anything from the Thirties.

This old REA auction description from 2016 does a good job of explaining it...give it a look:

https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...-original-box/

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Originally Posted by BabyRuth

I think the toughest card for me for the 60 card master set was the O'Doul Brooklyn. Here's a few of mine:

Those are great!

One thing I've wondered about the graded cards is whether there is a minimum size required to get a number grade vs "Authentic". Unless you get a complete three card strip, they are ALL hand cut. My Ruth (and many of the cards I've seen) is labeled Authentic, even though it has a complete white border around the ink border. I thought maybe it needed to have the "dotted line" to get a number grade, but that's not true either.

So I'm guessing it must have to meet a minimum size. Or they just grade them "Authentic" at random. But I'll personally take them raw, or in any grade, and any size

[GeoPoto]

1931 was Bucky's third year as a Tiger, but he clings to his Washington uniform. B&W (or green?), maroon, and left-handed:

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1660677143
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1660677148
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1660677152

[BabyRuth]

Combs - Right and Left as well!!!

[thatkidfromjerrymaguire]

Those reverse images from the last couple postes are cool....I've never seen those before. Wet sheet transfers I assume? Add those to the list of possible variations and oddities to chase in this set.

[brianp-beme]

Here is my Bucky Harris reverse image example with a nice strong reverse image.

Brian