T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[Joshchisox08]

While I sit here going on hour number 1 and after re-scanning about 50 cards so far. (My new scanner came yesterday).

I'm begining to think of the players that I'm scanning. While there is a published book I'm sure you're all familiar with T206 Collection the players and their stories. They have some suggested "Overlooked by Cooperstown" players which I use for tracking purposes in my checklist.

Some of the players I agree with "Donnie Bush" besides his playing career he managed taking a team to the WS, was a partial owner and a scout as well. Can't get more of a HOFer in my book than that.

Some players I can't figure out why ??? George Stone ????????????

So setting aside those "Overlooked" players from the book.

Who do you think in the T206 collection should be a HOFer and didn't even get recognition in that book ???

I'll name a couple to start:

Ed Konetchy
Big Bill Dineen

HOW COULD I FORGET ////////////// Fielder Jones \\\\\\\\\\\\\\

****************************************EDIT FOR NET54 MOCK PLAYER INTRODUCTION PICKS********************************************* **************

1. Ed Reulbach 1 vote

[Mountaineer1999]

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

Lol Bill Dahlen is on the "Overlooked" list in the book. So he at least gets recognized.

[packs]

I never understood why Larry Doyle isn't in. He was the premiere NL second baseman of his time and retired the best ever at the position in his league. To me, the best player at their position in their era is a HOFer.

[trdcrdkid]

Sherry Magee (who I know is in the "Overlooked" section in the T206 book)
Jack Quinn
Jack Powell

[z28jd]

When you mention all that Donie Bush did in baseball, it points out that the HOF needs a category for career HOF'ers. Case in point, Charlie Grimm

.290 career hitter in 2166 games, drove in over 1000 runs. Very good career and I agree, not a HOF player.

19 years as a manager, 1287-1067 record, three NL pennants and I agree, not a HOF manager either, but you can't tell me that isn't a HOF career!

Dahlen will get in the HOF, now that WAR is a highly accepted stat to explain a player's value, you can't keep him out. Paul Molitor played 21 years, had a 75.4 WAR, Dahlen 21 years 75.2, one had no trouble getting in on the first ballot, the other has been retired for over 100 years, back when that WAR would have made him the sixth best position player ever up to that point.

When they put in Derek Jeter with 90+% of the votes and say, hey here is a shortstop with more value not in the HOF. Of course, you could say that with Barry Larkin, who basically had the same exact value as Jeter(aka not as good as Dahlen either) and he went in while waiting three long years, the poor guy

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Sherry Magee (who I know is in the "Overlooked" section in the T206 book)
Jack Quinn
Jack Powell

Interesting I like them as HOFers too thought that I was the only one who would consider them because of their high losses in addition to wins.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by z28jd

When you mention all that Donie Bush did in baseball, it points out that the HOF needs a category for career HOF'ers. Case in point, Charlie Grimm

.290 career hitter in 2166 games, drove in over 1000 runs. Very good career and I agree, not a HOF player.

19 years as a manager, 1287-1067 record, three NL pennants and I agree, not a HOF manager either, but you can't tell me that isn't a HOF career!

Dahlen will get in the HOF, now that WAR is a highly accepted stat to explain a player's value, you can't keep him out. Paul Molitor played 21 years, had a 75.4 WAR, Dahlen 21 years 75.2, one had no trouble getting in on the first ballot, the other has been retired for over 100 years, back when that WAR would have made him the sixth best position player ever up to that point.

When they put in Derek Jeter with 90+% of the votes and say, hey here is a shortstop with more value not in the HOF. Of course, you could say that with Barry Larkin, who basically had the same exact value as Jeter(aka not as good as Dahlen either) and he went in while waiting three long years, the poor guy

Donnie Bush also had 1,800 hits and was considered one of the best fielding SS's in baseball.

"As a batter, Bush did not hit for high batting average but was regularly among the Major League leaders in drawing bases on balls, sacrifice hits, stolen bases, and runs scored. At the time of his retirement in 1923, Bush's 1,158 bases on balls ranked second in Major League history. His 337 sacrifice hits still ranks fifth in Major League history, and his 1909 total of 52 sacrifice hits is the fourth highest in Major League history. He ranked among the American League leaders in stolen bases ten times, and, during the decade from 1910 to 1919, the only players to score more runs than Bush were Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, and Tris Speaker."

"He was recognized as one of the best defensive shortstops of the dead-ball era. He had more putouts, assists, and total chances than any other shortstop of the era, and his 1914 totals of 425 putouts and 969 chances are still American League records for shortstops (and the Major League record for putouts). He also led the American League in assists by a shortstop on five occasions and holds the Major League record with nine triple plays."

[RaidonCollects]

I highly agree with Bill Dinneen. Extremely overlooked.

-Pitched a no-hitter in '05
-Led the AL in saves in '03 and '07
-Stole the pennant of the Highlanders in the last game of the season (beating Jack Chesbro and his 41-win season in a pitching duel in '04)
-Pitched very well in the '03 series with a 3-1 record and pitching 11 strikeouts in Game 2
-Jimmy Collins listed him in the best 6 pitchers he had ever seen (with WaJo, Joss, Chesbro, Young and Ed Walsh
-4 20-win seasons (plus one in '87 in the minors)
-40 consecutive seasons in the majors (as player and umpire).
-Umpired the first half of the first AS game, plus 8 different WS and 5 no-no's.
-Ban Johnson (in a letter to Babe Ruth) said "Dinneen was one of the greatest pitchers the game ever produced" and "He is one of the cleanest and most honorable men baseball ever fostered"

Rant over

Hurry up Cooperstown

[Bpm0014]

Bill Dahlen
George Mullin

[insccollectibles]

Dahlen will most likely be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible again.

From Wikipedia:
Dahlen was included on the Veterans Committee ballot for 2013 induction to the Hall of Fame. The results were announced on December 3, 2012. Dahlen received 10 out of 16 votes, falling 2 votes short of election, the highest total of any person on the ballot who was not elected and will have to wait until the end of 2015 for election.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by insccollectibles

Dahlen will most likely be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible again.

From Wikipedia:
Dahlen was included on the Veterans Committee ballot for 2013 induction to the Hall of Fame. The results were announced on December 3, 2012. Dahlen received 10 out of 16 votes, falling 2 votes short of election, the highest total of any person on the ballot who was not elected and will have to wait until the end of 2015 for election.

I've always wondered how it would effect the card in the set of a player if they actually get inducted.

[Econteachert205]

Deacon phillippe

[insccollectibles]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I've always wondered how it would effect the card in the set of a player if they actually get inducted.

His Boston card already sells for a premium but it will most likely go up some after the election. The Brooklyn card is of course considered rarer and sells for a good price already but will most likely go up as well.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by insccollectibles

His Boston card already sells for a premium but it will most likely go up some after the election. The Brooklyn card is of course considered rarer and sells for a good price already but will most likely go up as well.

Thought it was his Brooklyn card ??? I have a Boston one and that would make me happy if it's Boston.

[insccollectibles]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Thought it was his Brooklyn card ??? I have a Boston one and that would make me happy if it's Boston.

Sorry I meant the Boston card is selling at a much higher premium than most other non hall of famers.

[The Nasty Nati]

I don't see there being any change in price if Dahlen gets in. His card is already priced as if he was a lower tier HOFer anyway...it's been priced that way for a while so I don't see much of a change if and when he gets into Cooperstown.

[z28jd]

I think there will be an initial rise in prices as people try to get one for their HOF collection, or just because he is in the news. Eventually it will level off.

[The Nasty Nati]

I actually had the same question a year ago about HOF candidates...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=184701

[CMIZ5290]

Dahlen and Ed Reulbach...

[Laxcat]

No love for Chief Wilson?

[Joshchisox08]

Reulbach is a good one. Nobody mentioning Fielder Jones either yet

[btcarfagno]

Sherry Magee. One of the top five tool players of the deadball era. Career OPS+ of 137. 441 Career stolen bases. Only non-Hall of Fame player to lead the league in RBI four times. 176 career assists from the outfield. Over 1100 career runs scored, over 1100 career RBI (during the deadball era!!), over 2,100 career hits....and he was just 34 years old when he played his last major league game. What could he have done had he stayed in the majors the next four years? He hit .331 at the highest levels of the minors over the next four years.

To me he is a no brainer for the Hall.

Tom C

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Dahlen and Ed Reulbach...

If Reulbach had over 200 wins I'd bet he'd be in by now. I also have an item that'd probably go up in value if he were ever elected, but that definitely has nothing to do with me supporting his candidacy.

[Joshchisox08]

I always liked Doc White as a sleeper HOF. He's not even considered by anyone maybe it's a White Sox fans biased opinion though.

[Frank A]

None: If they haven't made it by now, forget it.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Frank A

None: If they haven't made it by now, forget it.

Interesting approach on the question ......... Wasn't expecting that one.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Interesting approach on the question ......... Wasn't expecting that one.

And it assumes that they have known what they are doing all this time too. That's a very interesting take since there are clearly plenty of strong candidates from the 1800's as well

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by z28jd

And it assumes that they have known what they are doing all this time too. That's a very interesting take since there are clearly plenty of strong candidates from the 1800's as well

Agreed. Tony mullane for one.

[Joshchisox08]

How about Tommy Leach? Haven't heard anyone mention him.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Titus.

[Joshchisox08]

Pete I think Titus is an even further stretch than Leach.

If you'll go Titus I'll go Doc White !!!!

[Topps206]

There are four players not from this set who I think should be in.

Bill Dahlen
Sherry Magee
Larry Doyle
Gavvy Cravath

Deacon Philippe definitely has a case, in my opinion.

I wouldn't give it to Dineen as a pitcher alone, but he has a nice combo case.

[jrlebert]

Love that this thread got a restart. Definitely agree on Dahlen. Why wasn't he elected the last time he was eligible?

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by z28jd

And it assumes that they have known what they are doing all this time too. That's a very interesting take since there are clearly plenty of strong candidates from the 1800's as well

Like Jimmy Ryan and Tip O'Neil, who has been enshrined in the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame for many years.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Like Jimmy Ryan and Tip O'Neil, who has been enshrined in the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame for many years.

Some compare Ryan to Magee. In my opinion, the latter was vastly superior.

What I do have a hard time is Babe Adams, Deacon Philippe and Sam Lever. What should be the pecking order in terms of HOF worthiness?

[JohnP0621]

Chief Meyers

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

In all honesty, what got Marquard in the Hall was his stretch from 1911-1913. He went 73-28, end of story. I agree about Dahlen, but I fear that ship has long sailed......

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

In all honesty, what got Marquard in the Hall was his stretch from 1911-1913. He went 73-28, end of story. I agree about Dahlen, but I fear that ship has long sailed......

Not to worry. He'll have fewer chances now, but if we, as a movement cam get strong backing, he can get it. He's better many players already in and is better than tons of shortstops in.

[CMIZ5290]

I think Ed Reulbach is a valid candidate.....

[Topps206]

He's not bad, I guess. Though I'm not crazy about him.

[RaidonCollects]

I agree that Ed Reulbach was a great player, but I don't think he's HOF worthy. He only posted one 20 win season plus here is his HOF stats:

Black Ink Pitching - 13 (175), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (152), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (97), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Starting Pitcher (202nd), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

-Owen

[Topps206]

Another interesting device is the Keltner List, too.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I agree that Ed Reulbach was a great player, but I don't think he's HOF worthy. He only posted one 20 win season plus here is his HOF stats:

Black Ink Pitching - 13 (175), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (152), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (97), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Starting Pitcher (202nd), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

-Owen

I agree,career 27.1 fWAR, walked nearly as many as he struck out. Not a HOF'er

Sherry Magee falls a little short too IMO, 63.7 WAR is good, but among OF'ers it's only 40th all time, his wRC+ is also only tied for 64th among OF'ers all time.

During his career (1904-1919) he was only the 13th best OF hitter, and was 3rd in fWAR.

[CMIZ5290]

Ed Reulbach was 182-106 with a lifetime E.R.A. of 2.24, and these are not HOF numbers? Wow, tough crowd.... He won almost twice as many games as he lost...

[DerekMichael]

I like George Mullin

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by DerekMichael

I like George Mullin

Great pitcher Derek, but look at this comparison...

Mullin 228-196, ERA 2.83
Reulbach 182-106, ERA 2.24

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ed Reulbach was 182-106 with a lifetime E.R.A. of 2.24, and these are not HOF numbers? Wow, tough crowd.... He won almost twice as many games as he lost...

wins are a pretty worthless stat for judging individual production and yes his ERA is low, but his FIP is near 3 and for his era, it's good but not HOF worthy.

This is one of the examples of how old time "baseball card" stats really don't tell us how good a player is . His number look average once you get below the surface. 27.3 WAR over 15 years isn't much more than that, even if you say it was 50% low against him that would only make him a 40 WAR player, and over that career, once again, pretty avg.


ETA: during his career (1905-1917) Reulbach was 16th among starters in WAR, 27th in ERA and way down in the 150's in FIP. (we are talking an era, where the highest ERA among qualified starters (from 05-17) was 4.02!!!)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

wins are a pretty worthless stat for judging individual production and yes his ERA is low, but his FIP is near 3 and for his era, it's good but not HOF worthy.

This is one of the examples of how old time "baseball card" stats really don't tell us how good a player is . His number look average once you get below the surface. 27.3 WAR over 15 years isn't much more than that, even if you say it was 50% low against him that would only make him a 40 WAR player, and over that career, once again, pretty avg.


ETA: during his career (1905-1917) Reulbach was 16th among starters in WAR, 27th in ERA and way down in the 150's in FIP. (we are talking an era, where the highest ERA among qualified starters (from 05-17) was 4.02!!!)

FIP is pretty worthless for deadball pitchers. You might as well say he didn't strike out a lot of batters and there are better stats for that. The pitcher that wins the game is the one who allows the fewest runs. Reulbach had an ERA+ of 123. That is better than many pitchers in the HOF including 300 game winner Eddie Plank. That is 9th among deadball pitchers post 1901. Wins and winning percentage mean a lot for this time period when pichers often pitched the whole game. There are certainly worse pitchers in the HOF. That doesn't mean he deserves it, but for this topic, he is one of the best not in.

[bbcard1]

There are a lot of colorful players in the t206 set that are good to remember, but in no way hall of fame candidates. That era has have many players honored by HOF inclusion...probably way too many. I could live with Doyle or Dahen fine, but I think guys like Oliva, Murphy and Maris would be more credible fits and I doubt any of the three of them are going to make it. Some of the guys mentioned are real stretches. Their statistics just aren't there. Some of them have the most ______ of any player not in the hall of fame. There will always be a player with the most ________ not in the hall of fame. That is not a criteria for inclusion.