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Old 12-07-2017, 02:49 PM
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Default Messi Makes Same Mistake as Pele

So Lionel Messi, the greatest soccer player of the 21st century, signed a contract which will keep him in Barcelona until 2021.

Now why do I see this as a bad move and why did I mention Pele in my title? Let's first talk about Pele and then we'll go back to Messi.

Pele, who is regarded as the greatest soccer player of all-time, spent his whole entire career playing for Santos FC. He set numerous records while playing for this club, but the biggest one he is known for is scoring 1,000 goals.

Now the most common argument soccer fans bring up while discussing Pele is this: if he had played in Europe, would he have been able to score that many goals? Some say no, while others say yes. Now there is no way he could have scored 1,000 goals in Brazil and another 1,000 in Europe, but what he could have done was to leave Santos, maybe in the mid or late 1960s, and played for a European club for a few years. If he led the league in goals and helped his club win the championship, then he could have silenced his critics. However, he never left Santos, and the "what if" questions will always remain.

Fast-forward to today. After Messi signed a contract with Barcelona, he told the media that his "dream is to finish his career with Barca." Now Barcelona is the richest soccer club in the world and can afford to sign the best players. Messi was always surrounded by the best. Now if he had played for another club, would he have been as successful? This is the question a lot of soccer fans always ask. Messi could have spent a few years playing for another club, maybe in the EPL, but nope, he hasn't done this and probably never will.

Messi has just made the same mistake as Pele.
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Old 12-07-2017, 02:54 PM
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I thought Pele played for the Cosmos for a season.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:14 PM
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He played for the New York Cosmos for 3 seasons. His friend, who was the owner of the Cosmos, begged him to come out of retirement to play for him. Pele, who was worn-out and past his prime, eventually agreed to do this, but the whole idea was to try to spread soccer in America. NASL was a garbage league anyways and eventually folded. Pele didn't prove anything by playing in New York.

That's like Messi spending a couple of seasons in MLS after his contract with Barcelona ends. What would that prove? Would he be able to silence his critics by making such a move? Nope. It would just be a waste of time, IMO.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:01 PM
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Right. But you said he played his whole career for Santos, never left Santos, etc. Not quite accurate, although I know what you meant.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:43 PM
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Messi doesn't play for Spain in World play. He has 25 goals in World Cup qualifiers and another 5 in the tournament itself. I'd say that's pretty definitive. He doesn't need the players on Barcelona to be Messi.

Last edited by packs; 12-07-2017 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:06 PM
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Given Pele's virtually unanimous status as the greatest player ever, I question the whole premise of this thread, that significant questions remain about how great he was.
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Old 12-07-2017, 09:25 PM
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Pele made his Santos debut in 1956, when he was only 15 years old. He remained with the club until 1974. So that's 19 seasons with Santos - pretty much his whole career. After that he retired.

Now his buddy who was the owner of the Cosmos - Steve Ross I believe was his name - must have asked Pele numerous times to come to America. The whole purpose was to try to bring increased awareness of the sport to the country. Pele was way past his prime, but he eventually agreed to do it.

One of the most common arguments soccer critics tend to bring up goes something like this: would Pele have been able to replicate his Brazilian success in Europe? Would he have been able to score numerous goals against bigger and stronger opponents, week after week, month after month and year after year? Yes, Santos did play some exhibition games in Europe throughout the 1960s, but that's different.

And finally, what the heck does playing in NASL have anything to do with this? He was already retired, but decided to spend a few more years playing soccer in America (while partying hard and having fun with gorgeous women). The whole thing was promotional and it does not invalidate the arguments commonly made by soccer critics, nor does it invalidate this thread. By wanting to spend his whole entire career with Barca, it looks like Messi is going to make the same mistake as Pele and that's what I am trying to argue here.

And FYI, not everyone thinks Pele is the GOAT. Do some research on the Internet and you'll find thousands of threads that discuss this topic. Some say Messi, while others prefer Maradona. Here is what Maradona said about Pele:

"Do you know what? I played in European football for 10 years while Pele played in South America. Yes he won World Cups and everything, but playing in Europe is something else entirely," he said.

"Not that that makes me much better than him or anything like that. When I played, the man-markers in Spanish and Italian football were like hunting dogs. They never left me alone."

You can read the whole thing below:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-2...-place/1406780
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:15 PM
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Default Pele

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Given Pele's virtually unanimous status as the greatest player ever, I question the whole premise of this thread, that significant questions remain about how great he was.

Same here--very odd
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
Pele made his Santos debut in 1956, when he was only 15 years old. He remained with the club until 1974. So that's 19 seasons with Santos - pretty much his whole career. After that he retired.

Now his buddy who was the owner of the Cosmos - Steve Ross I believe was his name - must have asked Pele numerous times to come to America. The whole purpose was to try to bring increased awareness of the sport to the country. Pele was way past his prime, but he eventually agreed to do it.

One of the most common arguments soccer critics tend to bring up goes something like this: would Pele have been able to replicate his Brazilian success in Europe? Would he have been able to score numerous goals against bigger and stronger opponents, week after week, month after month and year after year? Yes, Santos did play some exhibition games in Europe throughout the 1960s, but that's different.

And finally, what the heck does playing in NASL have anything to do with this? He was already retired, but decided to spend a few more years playing soccer in America (while partying hard and having fun with gorgeous women). The whole thing was promotional and it does not invalidate the arguments commonly made by soccer critics, nor does it invalidate this thread. By wanting to spend his whole entire career with Barca, it looks like Messi is going to make the same mistake as Pele and that's what I am trying to argue here.

And FYI, not everyone thinks Pele is the GOAT. Do some research on the Internet and you'll find thousands of threads that discuss this topic. Some say Messi, while others prefer Maradona. Here is what Maradona said about Pele:

"Do you know what? I played in European football for 10 years while Pele played in South America. Yes he won World Cups and everything, but playing in Europe is something else entirely," he said.

"Not that that makes me much better than him or anything like that. When I played, the man-markers in Spanish and Italian football were like hunting dogs. They never left me alone."

You can read the whole thing below:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-08-2...-place/1406780
Of course there are individuals who will question anything. Look at the rankings Al posted on the soccer cards thread. I rest my case.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:37 AM
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All my very humble opinion, and coming from an England supporter who has been tortured often on the international scene, but......

Messi is a wonderful player. Greatest of all time? Not by a long shot. When he leads an Argentinian team to a World Cup championship then maybe he can be put in front of Maradona, and it pains me to even type that last name.

As far as the "Greatest of All Time" idea, that's a lot of fun to kick around but is there really any answer? Reminds me of horseracing - every year at least two or three trainers and/or jockeys claim this or that horse is the "best I've ever ridden" or "the best I've ever trained". It gets old after a while.

Football is a sport with a long and storied history. Even selecting a top one hundred would force someone to leave out too many great players.

Certainly wouldn't mind seeing Messi in a Southampton kit though.
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