Vintage Die-cut Questions

[aelefson]

Hi-
I recently acquired the die-cut baseball players scanned below at a flea market and I have several questions regarding them. They are blank backed. They were in a scrapbook filled with other blank backed Victorian era scraps, and these came off perfectly with no soaking needed. The Chicago players were on both sides of one page and the other team was on the second page. The New York image scroll was on the second page, and each page also had the manager type person with the cane. Here are my questions.

1. What are these from? They look very familiar to me. Did they come from a game? Or, were these designed for scrapbook pasting (like the R&S series, et al)? Something else?
2. What approximate year are they from? My guess was 1905-1910, but I could be off.
3. Is the red uniform team supposed to be NY? Were there other teams produced?

I would really appreciate any additional information regarding these.
Thanks in advance,
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

[bcbgcbrcb]

I would say 19th Century for sure, otherwise never seen anything like them before.

[Butch7999]

We've seen these attributed to McLoughlin Brothers, circa 1890, but we haven't yet been able to verify that
nor to associate them with any of the many McLoughlin tabletop baseball games of the era.
McLoughlin made loads of paper toys (and children's books) in addition to their well-known boardgames.

[aelefson]

Thanks Butch and Phil! I really appreciate the help.
Alan

[T205 GB]

alan how tall are the players?

[Butch7999]

Alan, we've seen so many different games over the years that sometimes we forget what we've looked at.
And sometimes we're just inexcusably lazy in our research.

Thanks for getting us off our keesters and prompting us to take a closer look at our McLoughlin files.

Again, we haven't seen these die-cuts actually included with any McLoughlin game -- but as far as we can tell without being hands-on,
the artwork of your die-cut player-figures is identical (except for color) to the players illustrated on the playing field
of McLoughlin's circa 1892 Base Ball Game.

So unless our eyes deceive us, we can say that your die-cuts are in fact definitely a McLoughlin product.
Whether they (and the game itself) date to precisely 1892 or a few years earlier or later we don't yet know.

[aelefson]

Very interesting and thank you Butch! I do not know why I was thinking 1905 era as I do agree they look just like the players in the game you posted. And thank you Phil for offering that opinion as well.

Andrew, I am on the road but will measure them when I get home over the weekend.

Alan

[aquarius31]

Hi Alan, I recall seeing a few of these come up for auction about 2 years ago. As other posters have pointed out, it comes from a board game. In fact, these items would have been affixed to a wooden stand so I think what you have is the "raw material." I recently found the link somewhere....I'll find it.

So here's the picture. Looks to be similar style although different teams. Someone on here should now be able to identify the actual McLoughlin board game.

Source = http://www.sportsantiques.com/2007NA...inStandups.jpg

[Butch7999]

Hi George, thanks for that photo -- the pic, of course, is from Carlton's amazing website, and those items were part of
the offerings from Mechanick's Historical Gallery at the 2007 NSCC. Did you (or anyone else here) pick those up (then or since)?

Actually, though, no one here has yet suggested the die-cuts came from a tabletop baseball game (although they may well have)
-- only that the artwork (except for the colorizing) was identical to that in the circa 1892 McLoughlin game we showed
(sadly, not ours of course).

We've never seen those die-cuts included in any example of the 18 different verifiable McLoughlin baseball games --
which is not, by any means, to absolutely rule them out as playing pieces; they may merely have been lost
from any of the scarce-to-rare examples of those games that have surfaced.

The wood-mounted examples of the die-cuts offered in 2007 by MHG, however, rather than being original parts
to a game, might have been crafted and assembled at any point in the last 90 to 120 years or so by anyone who had
the original unattached die-cuts in their possession. Certainly the little labels on the wooden bases are not "period."

We're not sure how many collectors on board here have (or have had) one or more McLoughlin games in their possession,
but they might be able to attest to the die-cuts being present in a game. If Mark Cooper, who's owned all or almost all of
the McLoughlin baseball games at one time or another, is still a member, he might be able to say whether he remembers
the die-cuts being part of a game in his now-dispersed collection.

[aquarius31]

Hi Butch, thanks for the great information. I perhaps assumed too quickly that those pieces came from a board game although if they did not come from a board game, I'm curious to see how they were distributed and for what purpose. These are not embossed die-cuts (or at least they don't look to be) so not sure if they would be affixed in scrap books such as the 1888 Scrapps or the R&S Artistic Series.

A few years back, I do recall someone seeing the complete set of Boston players on eBay. And perhaps my memory is not that good but I do recall also seeing these items mounted on very similar wooden stands at a local show in the Boston 2 years ago and being told that they were came from McLoughlin Brothers board game. I guess the mystery continues.

[aelefson]

Thanks George and Butch! George, I really appreciate the photo. Butch, I will post a thread over on the Memorabilia side over the weekend to see if any of the regulars over there recognize these (or a related game).


Alan

[walnutts]

Just got referred here from the memorabilia forum. Recently acquired what appears to be a partial set of 7 Victorian Baseball Paper Dolls. They came to us with a fantastic collection of 1870's and 1880's Chromolithograph Paper Dolls (most by McLoughlin Bros.). These Baseball Paper Dolls however are the only Dolls in the collection that are not your typical "Girl's" Paper Dressing Dolls and they have thrown us for a loop.



They are blank backed and printed on a very light weight card stock. My first thought looking at them was that they were from the 1910's but the uniforms and the fact that none of the players are wearing gloves is more consistent with the 1880's. The uniforms all say "Detroit" and the uniforms are identical in style to those worn by the 1887 Detroit Wolverines of the National League. There was a note with the group in the collection that seems to imply that there may have been 23 Paper Dolls in the original set but there are only 7 present.



The source seems to confirm the belief that these are 19th century issues. That same source might point to McLoughlin as the publisher. I think the best guess is that these were "Paper Dolls" and nothing more (not a part of a game) - they are not die cut but rather hand cut and were likely issued either as a Paper Doll Book or as sheets of figures. Anyone know what examples have sold for in the past?

One other note - on the back of each Player there is what appears to be a period pencil inscription that seems to have been written by a child. Each figure has a “position” (such as “right field”, “catcher”, “shortstop”) and the name of the Detroit Tiger who played that position ca1910. Inscriptions include “right field / Cobb”; “utility / O’Leary”; “pitcher / Donovan”; “left field / Crawford”; etc. We are unsure if these notations were added some years after the Paper Dolls were manufactured or if perhaps the Dolls WERE published ca1910.

[Joe_G.]

Sorry for bumping an old thread but I believe this mystery was solved awhile back and a date was determined but cannot find it via normal searches. Can someone respond with definitive maker and date?

Thank You!

[Butch7999]

http://baseballgames.dreamhosters.com/BbMcLoughlin.htm