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  #1  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:10 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

We are all familiar with the scarcest T206 card....the "Slow Joe"....Doyle N.Y. Nat'l.

But, how many T206er's are aware that there is another variation of the regular Joe Doyle card ?
In the close-up scan here of the Joe Doyle card, is seen a printer's mark just to the right of the dot
following the "Y" (pointer identifies this mark). However minor this mark may appear, it exactly lines
up with the start of the "N" in the very scarce "Nat'l" variation. It very slightly drops below the line
of the "Doyle, N.Y." lettering, as does the letter "N" in the word "Nat'l" in the scarce variation.

Furthermore, this mark is seldom seen. When it is, it has been my experience that the Doyle cards
(that I've seen it on) have Piedmont 350 backs. I have yet to see this mark on Doyle cards with
the Sweet Cap & Sovereign 350, EPDG, Old Mill, Polar Bear, or Tolstoi backs.
And, of course, the Doyle "Nat'l" only exists with a Piedmont 350 back.

So, is this a "hint" of the "Nat'l" printing ? Or, only a remnant mark of the removal of the word "Nat'l" ?

I am curious what your opinions are of this seldom seen tiny mark ? So, let's do a SURVEY on this to
see if my observation is correct, that this strange mark appears ONLY on Piedmont 350 Joe Doyle's.

If I have tweeked your interest, check-out your Joe Doyle cards closely and post your inputs here.....
and, please identify the back of your card.

Consider this, if my speculation here is correct....this card then represents a "poor man's abbreviated"
example of a Joe Doyle error card.

Thanks for your interest, and let's get your responses.
TED Z



.................................................. ....../\............




  #2  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:38 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: John

Ted,

Good stuff nice catch, I’ve known about this one for a long time as well. I even recently brought this up at our recent dinner to Mike & Dar, I wish you had made it we could have discussed it in more detail.

I caught it because I guess I was lucky enough to have one in my collection already. I was looking at the card and saw the spot I assumed for awhile that all Doyle’s had the mark. But after adding a few more I noticed they did not. I started looking for them, and now have 2 and yes both are Piedmont 350 backed cards.

About as close as I’ll get to a Doyle in the near future I guess.

It would be interesting to see how many pop up on here….perhaps it’s harder than the Doyle…LOL.


  #3  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:43 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: MVSNYC

john- i thought of you right away when ted posted this...

very cool guys, you could be onto something.

John- when the heck are you making it back up to NYC? we really tore it up nice!

  #4  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:51 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: John

Mike,

I just emailed you, we should get together again it was a lot of fun!

Ted, lets call it the Partial “N” Doyle….lets also start the bidding at say around 10k…….

  #5  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:57 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: rob

Mine is just the regular old variety...it is, I believe, the only graded Tolstoi back by SGC however, thats gotta be worth something!

  #6  
Old 06-05-2007, 04:59 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: MVSNYC

john- i just responded...thanks.

ted- not to "hi-jack" your thread, but rumor has it that you're coming to the next NYC Dinner, is this true?

  #7  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:22 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: T206Collector

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28530&usetid=2351

I'll have to check at home to see if it isn't just a spot of tobacco staining, but it looks from a distance like the ones above.

  #8  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:42 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Dylan

My money is on these being a whole lot easier to find then the full variation

  #9  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:44 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: MVSNYC

Paul- i had both images up (yours & ted's)...looks like the exact same "mark", in the same location.

  #10  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:48 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Well, there are only 10 (or less) confirmed Joe Doyle N.Y. Nat'l cards.

So, I think between Brian W, John W, and I....we already have seen more of these "printer's mark"
variations than 10.

  #11  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:51 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: John

Geeeee...you think so Dylan......

  #12  
Old 06-05-2007, 05:57 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: ScottIngold

I was waiting for that to come.

  #13  
Old 06-05-2007, 06:12 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: leon

Party foul.....go to the time out corner.....No need to be condescending now ....in person you could do it and we could take a chug of beer and laugh about it...but behind a keyboard we don't get the same non-verbal feedback. Be nice.....best regards

  #14  
Old 06-05-2007, 06:16 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Joe D.

And I think we can safely say those cards with the dot - were almost "Nat'l"s

The printer polished out that area on the plate (instead of making a new one) and left some of the 'N' there.

I'm not sure how long plates lasted back then, how long the press runs were (or if plates were held for more than one run)....
so its hard to say how tough these would be to find.

But to me, the cool part is that the card was almost a Natl - and could very well have been part of the same press run as the Natl cards.

  #15  
Old 06-05-2007, 06:17 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: John

Gimme break Leon…really think that was that harsh??? I mean it was a pretty obvious statement besides I’ve seen nastier than that fly around here as of late. But I’ll try to be a bit more sugar and honey from here on out I guess.

John

  #16  
Old 06-05-2007, 06:26 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi John,
It wasn't that bad.... But you should stick to pictures anyway, as you are the master. Be well Brian

PS My imagination is running wild wondering what you are going to post next.

  #17  
Old 06-05-2007, 06:52 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: leon

No, it wasn't that harsh by this board's standards but still.....a little sugar never hurt......(no, I don't want "sugars" from you ) later....

  #18  
Old 06-05-2007, 07:24 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: barry arnold

sadly, mine is a sweet cap, so no cigar.

interesting work,Trex et al

all the best
barry

  #19  
Old 06-05-2007, 07:48 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: bob

Sweet Cap 350, no extra dot.

  #20  
Old 06-05-2007, 08:03 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Martin Neal

Hi Ted,

Mine has got the dot, but has a Polar Bear back.

Martin

  #21  
Old 06-05-2007, 09:24 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Scot Reader


From Paul and Martin, it seems that the stray mark appears on Piedmont 350 and Polar Bear. This is counterintuitive to me, since it suggests Polar Bear was early in the 350-only print run. The reason this is counterintuitive is that Demmitt (New York) and O'Hara (New York) appear with all of the 350-only backs except Polar Bear, whereas Demmitt (St. Louis) and O'Hara (St. Louis) appear only with Polar Bear--suggesting that Polar Bear was printed near the end of the 350-only print run.

  #22  
Old 06-05-2007, 09:40 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

SCOT

After the 2nd PB input came in I started thinking along the same lines you just stated.
I guess we have to give this scenario some more thought in order to figure out what
we are really seeing here with this variation.

1st day Survey Results

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........6..........0

Sweet Cap 350......0..........2

Polar Bear.............2..........0

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Old Mill

Sovereign 350

EPDG


Come on all you serious T206er's, this is new and interesting stuff,
let's get some more inputs.

  #23  
Old 06-05-2007, 10:25 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Zinn

Piedmont 350. No Mark.



  #24  
Old 06-05-2007, 10:37 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Ray Piskadlo

I have a Piedmont 350, Factory 25, 2nd District VA with no mark! Scan coming later!

  #25  
Old 06-05-2007, 10:44 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Matt

Piedmont 350 - no mark.

  #26  
Old 06-05-2007, 11:34 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: JimB

Piedmont 350 No mark

  #27  
Old 06-06-2007, 12:16 AM
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Posted By: Mike Ellis

one Sovereign, one Piedmont. Both without the mark.
Mike

  #28  
Old 06-06-2007, 02:23 AM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks....ZINN, RAY, MATT, JIM B amd MIKE for your inputs.

We finally have some Piedmont 350's without the printer's mark.

TED Z

  #29  
Old 06-06-2007, 02:24 AM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

UPDATED Survey

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........6..........7

Sweet Cap 350......0..........2

Polar Bear.............2..........2

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Old Mill..................0..........1

Sovereign 350........0...........1

EPDG


We are just getting started, this is new and interesting stuff.
Show or tell us about your Joe Doyle ?


Edited to add 4 inputs emailed from "readers" of Net54.

  #30  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:17 AM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

We don't have enough information at this point on this Mark/No-Mark phenomena.

We know that Demmitt (NY) does not exist with a Polar Bear and Sovereign 350 backs.
In fact he exists with only 4 different T-brands.

And, from what we have seen here (so far) with the Joe Doyle cards, we have to conclude
that there was an early press run of Polar Bears backs (on limited level of Subjects) in 1910
and then a later press run that year on a larger scale of Subjects.

TED Z

  #31  
Old 06-06-2007, 08:38 AM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

I am thinking along similar lines, i.e., early partial Piedmont/Polar Bear print in 350-only.

While not statistically significant, I think it is interesting that in this small sample about half of the Piedmonts and half of the Polar Bears have the stray mark.

Scot

  #32  
Old 06-06-2007, 09:33 AM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Lee Behrens

Sweet Cap, no mark here.

This card to me is the most overvalued card in the set, these commons surpass HOFer prices most of the time.

Lee

  #33  
Old 06-06-2007, 10:04 AM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Sean BH

Sweet Cap no mark for me.

Sean BH

  #34  
Old 06-06-2007, 10:53 AM
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Posted By: Drew

Hi Ted
Two Doyles Sweet Cap 350 and Polar Bear. No mark.


Drew

  #35  
Old 06-06-2007, 12:41 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

UPDATED Survey 6/5/07

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........6..........8

Sweet Cap 350......0..........5

Polar Bear.............2..........3

Tolstoi..................0..........1

Old Mill..................0..........1

Sovereign 350........0...........1

EPDG


We need more inputs, guys and gals. We are looking for some kind of pattern in order to better under-
stand this mysterious "printer's mark".
So far it has revealed to us that there had to be two Polar Bear press runs in 1910. That is assuming
that this "printer's mark" is correlated to the "Nat'l" caption printed on the 1st run Joe Doyle cards.

  #36  
Old 06-06-2007, 04:20 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks LEE, SEAN and DREW for your inputs. They have been tallied on the updated survey.

Also, I have received via email...2 more Piedmont 350 inputs with No Mark.

These and any additional ones will be tallied in tomorrow's updated survey. This brings the total
to only 24 Joe Doyle cards.

I realize this card is tough to find; but, there has to be more Joe Doyle cards out there in Net54
members' T206 collections.....so, tell us about your's ?

  #37  
Old 06-06-2007, 04:29 PM
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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted, while I've sold my Doyle and don't remember any mark or not, this recent auction for a SC 350 had no mark:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-1911-T-206-Card-143b-Joe-Doyle-New-York_W0QQitemZ220114563858QQihZ012QQcategoryZ86840 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one with a PB had no mark:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-T206-Joe-Doyle-Over-PSA-3-7301_W0QQitemZ190116414755QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31718 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and this one on the LOC site with a SC 350 back has no mark:

,0785bu.tif&displayProfile=2&dir=ammem&itemLink=D?bbcards:4:./temp/~ammem_NERg:

  #38  
Old 06-06-2007, 04:44 PM
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Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- Levi was selling one on eBay recently (didn't sell), it was a PSA 3, Polar Bear back, No Mark.

  #39  
Old 06-06-2007, 09:02 PM
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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks JON and MIKE for the inputs.

Mike
Jon beat you to Levi's PB Doyle in his 2nd link.....I don't want to count the same card twice in this survey.

TED Z

  #40  
Old 06-06-2007, 09:06 PM
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Posted By: Zinn

Don't count Jon's first link either. Sean BH was the winner and he has posted his.

  #41  
Old 06-06-2007, 09:10 PM
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Posted By: ockday

piedmont 350...no mark

  #42  
Old 06-06-2007, 09:46 PM
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Posted By: Mike Ernst

Sweet Cap--no dot.

  #43  
Old 06-06-2007, 10:33 PM
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Posted By: Doyle dot

I have the Piedmont 350 Doyle, but no dot.


  #44  
Old 06-06-2007, 11:06 PM
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Posted By: Scott Mosley

P-350 without the mark here.

Scott

  #45  
Old 06-07-2007, 01:06 AM
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Posted By: David

My Polar Bear Doyle has no mark but on a side note is missing most of the right side of the Y in N.Y.

  #46  
Old 06-07-2007, 03:05 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

OCKDAY, MIKE, T206guy, SCOTT M, DAVID

Thanks for your inputs and they will be tallied on today's upgraded survey.

TED Z

  #47  
Old 06-07-2007, 04:27 PM
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Posted By: Lee

My Doyle has the dot

  #48  
Old 06-07-2007, 06:46 PM
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Posted By: Art M.

Hi Ted,
Here is the information from my T206 Doyle, hands above cards:
Piedmont 350 - no mark
Sweet Caporal 350 - no mark

Interesting thread.
Art

  #49  
Old 06-07-2007, 08:50 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

UPDATED Survey 6/6/07 to reflect 7 member's recent inputs and 2 emailed to me.

T-brand.............Mark....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........6.........12

Sweet Cap 350......0.........10

Polar Bear.............2..........6

Tolstoi..................0.........1

Old Mill..................0.........1

Sovereign 350........0..........1

EPDG

Well, the Joe Doyle cards with this mysterious "printer's mark" are being outnumbered by the No-Mark
Joe Doyle's by a factor of 4 to 1. With more of the Doyle's reported, I expect this ratio to get higher.

The initial 6 Joe Doyle's reported with this MARK were due to I, and others, who had discreetly acquired
them. With 39 cards reported, we are starting to approach a true random sample and eventually we will
have a better idea of the relative scarcity of the Joe Doyle.."wannabe error cards".. with this "printer's-
mark".

So, keep those inputs rolling in....we haven't gotten to 1st base yet.

T-Rex TED

  #50  
Old 06-07-2007, 10:01 PM
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Default SURVEY..is your T206 Joe Doyle a rare variation ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for the input....but, it's also important for you to tell me what back your
Joe Doyle has ? Without the back info, I don't where to record your input.

Thanks,
TED Z

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