VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

[Leon]

By popular demand.










.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.

[Leon]

In our collections there are hundreds and thousands of alterations that are graded numerically. As long as it's in a slab it's ok though . As I had said in our email, if this was about PWCC doing something the pitchforks would be out. As it is not many folks care if they have altered cards they are unaware of. As long as the snotty nosed kids don't detect Desmond's work, who has been doing it before the kiddo graders were even born, it's all good.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Steve Timmons and SCD -- now that brings back memories. The only time in my decades of collecting I had to mention that I was a lawyer was when Steve Timmons at first refused to take some trimmed cards back from me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think a sizeable number of people don't care, but that there is also an element that is just naïve and check their intelligence and common sense and critical faculties at the door when it comes to cards and memorabilia. The sleazebags of the hobby have been preying on these guys for years.

[bnorth]

Great article, I agreed back then and still agree with it today. Can see why it is not too popular on this forum though.

[Bill77]

Fun read, I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.

The only thing missing from the article was everyone's concern that their cards were being changed out for lesser cards and given to priority clients. In retrospect I think the concern over cards being switched probably had more to do with people thinking their cards were better than they actually were, because we all know that our cards are all 9s and 10s.

[rickyb80]

It is quite common for people, in general, to overestimate their own abilities.
I joined PSA a few years ago and didn't make it past the initial 15-card order. I got upset because my cards received poor grades and cursed PSA in every way imaginable. I took the grades they assigned to my cards personally. I knew my cards weren't perfect, but it seemed that my expectations were always a grade or so above the one assigned.

I spent a couple years paying very close attention to everything in the collecting world. I learned a lot about many things and the more I educated myself, the less upset I would get with the card grading companies. Part of that was also due to the fact that I had sharpened my ability to identify and acquire quality cards and I was no longer submitting cards that were unworthy of being graded. I reached the point where I could successfully grade my own cards.

Many people think they are at that point, but I can tell you that most people actually are not. It's hard not to raise an eyebrow when I see someone declare grades that are well above what I know a card should be. Most of the time people are stubborn, don't take my advice, and even get upset with me as if I were somehow purporting to be the authority on grading. The truth is, I do not consider myself to be the authority on grading. I can only speak from my own personal experience.

Full understanding requires a sedulous approach that considers the nuances between each year/set. For example, O-Pee-Chee's don't get graded the same as Topps, especially if they were cut in the 60's or 70's. I've heard this had to do with infrequent blade sharpening, which explains the rougher edges on some versus others. Cards are assessed while considering the era in which they were produced, the methods that were used, etc.

Many people do already know these things but there are also many who do not. That is not to say that there is no reason to doubt the grading companies and I realize there are many collectors who are solid at assessing their cards. However, my experience is that most people do overestimate their own abilities, and it's not my job to convince them to take my advice.

Rule of thumb is to "buy the card, not the grade", and those who stick to that will be successful. I amassed nearly my entire collection almost solely on the profits I made buying cards that were clearly under-graded. Granted, there are times I buy a card that looks under-graded, only to receive it and notice a surface issue that was not visible online. In those cases it is still possible to recoup the money I spent with a little patience, quality photos, and a well-worded description.

I only submit to SGC and Beckett. I see way too many people paying huge premiums for over-hyped cards in PSA holders. I have seen them over-grade more cards than I can count, and many blindly assume that anything in a PSA slab is better than anything else in any other slab. I have seen too much inconsistency from PSA, and their slabs leave a lot to be desired.

I do not feel as though the grading company's are taking advantage of anyone. Whether or not one gets involved with grading is a personal choice. It's a matter of personal preference, and an expensive decision for many people. It's hard to have sympathy for anyone willing to invest money into something without first taking the time to gain a full and complete understanding of the process in which they are investing.

The same people who pay to submit their collection without truly possessing the ability to properly assess with precision and without taint of personal bias, are the same people who later complain that they were "ripped off" or "taken advantage of". I am not saying that was the case in Mr. Purdy's article. In fact, I really like the writing and feel there is a lot of truth to it. It's a nostalgic piece that reminds me of the simpler times that I prefer. Perhaps I've gone on a bit of a tangent. My point is, for every person who actually can grade their own cards, there are 10 more who mistakenly believe they can.

Please. I hope nobody takes anything I have said personally. I'm just being honest and this is not directed at anyone in particular.

Take care. By the way this is my first post on Net54.

Cheers,

Ricky

[glynparson]

Ah the kid grader line again. Every grader I know and I know most of them is north of 40. Most are around the same age as Desmond I believe. Why is it so hard to make points with the truth in this day and age and an article written by someone with an agenda 23 years ago means little today. You defending bvg and constantly ripping psa is a joke. It shows you are either ignorant, blind, or just so loyal because they are your friends. I think you are a nice guy Leon but I think you either spin your grading opinions or just flat out don’t know what your talking about. Go ahead rip
Into me I won’t be checking back in because I don’t feel like fighting with people
Over the internet. Anyone wants to discuss feel
Free to see me at the National or any other show i attend.

[bobbvc]

What's an ASA?

[hcv123]

Reality 1 - 3rd party grading is inconsistent at best (grossly incompetent at worst) - I have seen cards that imnsho were over graded, under graded and grossly mis-graded. For those well versed this is obvious and easy enough to see. (As has been raised above - there are many not so well versed)

Reality 2 - There are altered cards in 3rd party grading holders (we will likely never know which ones as anyone who owns one either is unaware or if aware, unwilling to take the financial hit of being honest). The grading companies ARE PART of the problem - when the very first card that PSA graded - the famed Gretzky-McNall Wagner is publicly known to have been altered (trimmed) and still sits in a PSA 8 holder - violating the very standard PSA claims to follow in grading - the actions (or lack thereof) speak way louder than words. While this is probably the most visible case, it is far from isolated and not a problem exclusive to any 1 grading company.

Reality 3 - The addition of 3rd party grading into the marketplace has vastly increased both the number of people "comfortable" buying cards as well as the prices for those cards. There is a whole market for people who - "buy the holder, not the card". They are certainly entitled to do so, but do so incurring the risks mentioned earlier in this thread.

My opinion - - While a VERY imperfect system for the reasons mentioned above and more, the net effect of 3rd party grading has been a benefit to hobby health as a whole. As in so many other markets - the more educated consumer is always in a position to make a more educated purchase decision. How educated one chooses to get is a personal decision.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon could you also post the companion article on card doctoring?

[Lorewalker]

In 1996 this article was probably cutting edge. I was not quite collecting then however with grading being fairly new, this was probably very controversial and a bold move by the author to print it.

In the short time I have been on this forum, I have read many posts that point out dozens more examples that are far more damaging and convincing than what is being pointed out in the article.

As great as grading is, it is also giving a license to card doctors to steal. It does not help that it appears a majority of collectors do not care or are not experienced enough to know what to look for once the card is blessed. These guys have to be laughing to themselves.

Not sure you can shock the consciences' of collectors enough that anything will ever change. Cards will continue to be worked and collectors will continually look the other way.

[felada]

VCBC was great when it was around. There were a few good articles about Hager. My favorite article was the one that Barry wrote about 19th century type cards. Best was his description of a few that fell into the category of you’ll never own one so why bother level of scarcity.

[buymycards]

It is amazing that the majority of this article still applies to grading in 2019. Nearly 23 years later and most of the points are still valid.

Rick

[rickyb80]

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

[oldjudge]

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Marckus99]

Slabber collectors,

Live by the sword, then die buying and getting burned with it.

[Leon]

Jay, unfortunately your rose colored glasses are getting in your way of good senses. Maybe it's your thumb in the picture again? Many would disagree with you, me included. I would say lhat SGC gets similar scrutiny and they do advertise (and grade vintage far better than PSA, imo). And I should mention that all grading companies, including SGC, make mistakes as humans are grading the cards. Personally, I think they made a mistake on the Yum Yum I have. But they are still better than PSA, to me.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Throttlesteer]

Besides obvious errors (doctoring, counterfeits, etc), how can one even assess consistency anymore? Forget which TPG you're a fan of; The standards have changed over time. Reslabbing just confuses things even more. Yes buy the card not the holder. But no TPG can boast consistency.

[oldjudge]

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

[Leon]

It is a wonderful hobby.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

It is a wonderful hobby.

Leon, renewing my request if you have time to post the companion piece on Desmond.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

Jay are you yet convinced it's more than "once in a while"? Do you still think "PSA does a great job"? If not, no worries, much more is coming.

[barrysloate]

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.

I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I think there may be small changes. Some collectors will leave the hobby. Others will cut back and not buy as much. But I don't think the impact will be great. Bottom line is there is still too much money to be made, and nobody will give that up.

That said, I hope I'm wrong and we have a hobby earthquake.

Barry, I hope you’re right. I’m living literally a few miles from the San Andreas fault, closer to it than Brent or PSA for that matter. I didn’t cause the scandal or the San Andreas. I will not accept responsibility for either. To put it simply,

They’re not my fault!!!