Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[Exhibitman]

Won it, Dan.

It depends on how the item was taken. A burglar gets nothing by way of title in the USA. An embezzler, check kiter or similar criminal fraudster gets voidable title that may be cleared by a bona fide purchaser. It depends on which version of the UCC the state uses. Quite apart from that is the issue of limitations. A lawsuit to reclaim an item after the theft of a readily identifiable item that has gone through multiple public sales over decades may be deemed to be untimely even if the original thief obtained only void (no) title.

As for the rest of the commentary re lawyers, I hope that every lawyer would analyze the issues based on getting his or her client what he or she wants, regardless of the outcome. My client may be a crook but he is entitled to the full benefit of the law same as I am. If there is a chance that the client has good title I need to advise accordingly even if I disagree. We all represent our share of scumbags, right counsellors?

fWIW if it was my card involved I would force them to prove it was stolen before I hand it back. Sorry but I'm not going to hand $50k or more to someone on the basis of anything written here no matter how well intentioned.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Won it, Dan.

It depends on how the item was taken. A burglar gets nothing by way of title in the USA. An embezzler, check kiter or similar criminal fraudster gets voidable title that may be cleared by a bona fide purchaser. It depends on which version of the UCC the state uses. Quite apart from that is the issue of limitations. A lawsuit to reclaim an item after the theft of a readily identifiable item that has gone through multiple public sales over decades may be deemed to be untimely even if the original thief obtained only void (no) title.

As for the rest of the commentary re lawyers, I hope that every lawyer would analyze the issues based on getting his or her client what he or she wants, regardless of the outcome. My client may be a crook but he is entitled to the full benefit of the law same as I am.

fWIW if it was my card involved I would force them to prove it was stolen before I hand it back. Sorry but I'm not going to hand $50k or more to someone on the basis of anything written here no matter how well intentioned.

Adam if the card was stolen then it was stolen by someone who walked out of the building with it, not by some means by which the thief acquired voidable title. That seems reasonably clear. And I agree with you there possibly could be a statute of limitations issue, as I previously mentioned, but that is a separate question from whether a bona fide purchaser could acquire good title.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

As for the rest of the commentary re lawyers, I hope that every lawyer would analyze the issues based on getting his or her client what he or she wants, regardless of the outcome. My client may be a crook but he is entitled to the full benefit of the law same as I am. If there is a chance that the client has good title I need to advise accordingly even if I disagree. We all represent our share of scumbags, right counsellors?

Wow, so you mean you don't conspire with your clients when they do bad things? Because I've heard otherwise.

[wonkaticket]

Peter good question. Look let's be honest the Feds come and take one of your items as potentially stolen. Then let's say it's returned with "hey this thing is fishy but we are limited on resources and limited by law on what we can do here. However heads up this is an issue you may want to look into, in the end can't tell you what to do."

I think the better question is why as a collector would you not want to exercise all due diligence to either clear the misunderstanding up. Or better yet look to make yourself whole if in fact you were duped. This is what the avg. collector which I consider myself to be would do. Now let's set a differnt set of rules on top of this that wouldn't apply to the average collector like many of us.

Leon is a public figure who is outspoken and bold in talking about fraud. He's an owner of an auction company as well as the owner of the hobby's premier message board. A message board famous for outing and detailing issues like this within the hobby.

These reasons and the others I have previously posted is why I think a bit more due diligence was needed from Leon on this. Before offering this card for sale public or private. Also let's be really candid we didnt need a CSI crime lab to figure this out. Chris and Nash did it in a matter of seconds using non original scans and what PhotoShop and a PC?

Leon has the card in his hands what he doesn't have a computer? How does he post from Western Union via telegraph? He doesn't have access to a scanner? That must make putting up those auction lots for B&L tough? He doesn't have access to countless experts, hobbyists and people with computer skills that he could call on for help. I don't know some sort of web based community or something. If one could find such a community. I wonder if there has ever been a situation where folks of this so called community were able to look at marks on cards and determine something that helped obtain a clear outcome for all parties involved.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134

Sorry to be so sarcastic but if Leon wanted to know the deal he could have.

Cheers,

John

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Peter good question. Look let's be honest the Feds come and take one of your items as potentially stolen. Then let's say it's returned with "hey this thing is fishy but we are limited on resources and limited by law on what we can do here. However heads up this is an issue you may want to look into, in the end can't tell you what to do."

I think the better question is why as a collector would you not want to exercise all due diligence to either clear the misunderstanding up. Or better yet look to make yourself whole if in fact you were duped. This is what the avg. collector which I consider myself to be would do. Now let's set a differnt set of rules on top of this that wouldn't apply to the average collector like many of us.

Leon is a public figure who is outspoken and bold in talking about fraud. He's an owner of an auction company as well as the owner of the hobby's premier message board. A message board famous for outing and detailing issues like this within the hobby.

These reasons and the others I have previously posted is why I think a bit more due diligence was needed from Leon on this. Before offering this card for sale public or private. Also let's be really candid we didnt need a CSI crime lab to figure this out. Chris and Nash did it in a matter of seconds using non original scans and what PhotoShop and a PC?

Leon has the card in his hands what he doesn't have a computer? How does he post from Western Union via telegraph? He doesn't have access to a scanner? That must make putting up those auction lots for B&L tough? He doesn't have access to countless experts, hobbyists and people with computer skills that he could call on for help. I don't know some sort of web based community or something. If one could find such a community. I wonder if there has ever been a situation where folks of this so called community were able to look at marks on cards and determine something that helped obtain a clear outcome for all parties involved.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112134

Sorry to be so sarcastic but if Leon wanted to know the deal he could have.

Cheers,

John

Wonka-Tonka

Instead of all of these posts, you could have taken this precious time to drive that new shiny rocket ship down here to Maryland!

We could have had a blast today!

Dan

[travrosty]

Referencing a post by Dan McKee on that other FBI thread. So why isn't SGC coming on here and saying how this Peck and Snyder card got such a high grade with major erasure and defacing and remnant stamp markings on the back of the card? The erasures even erase part of the natural lettering? Is it because of who now owns it? I don't get it. Where is SGC?



McKee:

A little andendum to John's recent post. I and I am sure we would also like to thank SGC for their cooperation and WILLINGNESS to listen to advanced collectors and then to immediately act and offer assistance.

If PSA had taken this attitude with the Nodgrass, they would have been looked upon as helpful. Instead, Joe had his grader re-examine the Nodgrass and said it was still legit, even after me, John and Rob Lifson stated it was bad.

A true difference in service by the 2 leading grading companies in these particular situations.

[Moonlight Graham]

Maybe this could be a solution: If the card is confirmed to be stolen, Leon should return it to the NYPL if that is what they desire. Or, with their consent, he could have the card sold by an auction house, take his 10,000 back, and then the NYPL could have the rest. Maybe they need the money more than the card back and would be much happier with that scenario. Just my worthless two cents.

Joe

[Leon]

i spoke with the NYPL. The card is being pulled from the auction while a solution is found. Thanks for all of the support. I doubt I post in this thread again and don't care to talk anymore about it publicly.