A nice long soaking

I have just gotten a majority of my raw cards delivered to me finally. There are a few I want to soak and remove some paper from. I have bleach, oxy clean, and clean bottled water. A few are T205's, T206's, and the Koesters Brown card. I know not to submerge the Koesters and to just dab the card with clean water and a cloth to remove the backing but should I used anything else?? What's the collective opinion as far as the other cards??? Your experiences are welcome. Thanks in advance for the help

[vargha]

Simply using filtered or purified water works best. Warm is better than cold in my experience.

[Mikehealer]

Put the bleach back in the laundry room. All you need is a pan and some water.
And then some paper towels, heavy books and a flat smooth surface to dry.
And a little time.

[Republicaninmass]

make sure they are thoroughly dry or you have to start from square one

Okay for sure no chemicals. Check

After I get the card clean is it okay to place between a cloth napkin and apply pressure to allow it to dry?

[Bicem]

whoa, a Vargha sighting!

[FrankWakefield]

Water. It isn't chemical warfare, put everything else away. Unless your tap water is hard or has lots of minerals it should be fine. Store bought water would be a waste of money and effort. Cool water and patience... I'd stay away from warm or hot water if there's ink from a pen on the card.

[T206DK]

never use bleach on T206 cards. it actually degrades the paper fiber more than if you were to use alcohol or lighter fluid for instance. You may also fade the ink using bleach.

Great news I got all the paper off the Brown. It actually soaked quite well. I used warm water and let him take a bath. I have a neat little tool with a rounded square tip (oxymoron) that pulled the paper off with very little issues. I also soaked a few T205's and they came out great.

[T206.org]

Let's see some before & after pics please, Andrew!

I will get pics when I get back tomorrow night.

[tiger8mush]

probably a dumb question, but did you pull the paper off while the card was still wet?

[brob28]

Andrew,

I've never soaked a card before but have some I'd like to. Just curious, how long you soaked the cards for & did you need to soak multiple times?

[vargha]

Bill, typically once is sufficient. The amount and strength of the adhesive determines how long it will need to soak. I know there was a disagreement on this, but my experience is that warm water works faster and better. I do recommend a final rinse/soak however, in clean water to remove any last little bits of stickiness (much like draining the tub of dirty water and giving yourself a final rinse if you were taking a bath after working in the yard).

[FrankWakefield]

Bill... first, make sure the card you're soaking will soak. T206s soak well, start with one of those. The cheapest worst one is the one to start with... it matters only because you'll worry less.

Room temperature water is less likely to partially dissolve some foreign ink and cause it to bleed. If there are no foreign marks on the card, then warm water is ok... You can soak the card overnight. If it's your first try, you'll want to pull the card out after a few minutes, watching it all the while. Eventually you'll be ok with soaking half a day to a day or so. And the 'rinsing' is good. If the water looks dirty from tobacco or dirt, I change to clean water and soak a while longer...

Once you've soaked a dirty, trimmed, beater of a T206, then you'll be comfortable soaking a HOFer.

[egbeachley]

Frank, I'm surprised that it's OK to soak a full day. But one question, how do you get the whole card to soak when it floats on top of the water? Keep flipping it? Put a coin on it?

[ullmandds]

I have soaked some cards for almost a day...worked just fine...and I usually place a coin or the lightest possible...smallest object to hold the card down...at the corners or edges worked best 4 me.

[FrankWakefield]

I put a card or two in a narrow glass. At worst a top edge of the card is at the surface, but still wet. If the edges are dirty I sometimes invert the card after a while... I think a T206 could go several days, but overnight is usually enough.

[rhettyeakley]

I also wouldn't recommend letting it soak overnight--some cards and trade cards (especially the early lithographed trade cards) if soaked too long will start to lose their enamel on front (especially areas of gilt or metallic printing, and for some reason the color red also seems to be the first to start breaking down). This also holds true for cards notorious for flaking or chipping (T209-2 and E94 immediately come to mind). A lot of 20th Century tobacco cards are pretty well made and can probably be soaked for days (but I wouldn't recommend that)--t206's are in this group as they soak extremely well, but don't let that get you overconfident as other sets are VERY different.

I have never bothered to use distilled water--I feel this is completely a waste of resources and time.

I actually will use warm to hot water and have found that to work best as it is actually denaturing/breaking the chemical bond between the paste and the two paper surfaces--thus it doesn't require the long soak time like cold water does. A shorter warm bath will be more fruitful than a long cold one as I get scared of the enamel loss--this becomes very obvious on 19th century issues---be VERY careful if you ever try to soak 19th Century cards as the photographic ones will simply peel off the hard cardboard backing but even the thick litho cards will begin to seperate pretty quickly. Each maker has slight differences--I have found Allen & Ginter cards (N2's, etc.) are generally 2 pieces stuck together and this is the way many Duke cards are as well but many of the Kimball brand cigarette cards are multiple layers of paper stuck together. I once was soaking some non-sports and an N185 Kimball Dancer was forgotten overnight and when I found it the next day it was 4-5 layers of paper floating in the sink (obviously unsalvageable, but a cheap lesson learned).

Never, never just let 'em sit for long periods of time--always do periodic checks--I tend to change the water (or add more warm water) to keep it from getting too cold. I'll also make sure the cards are completely submerged or flip them so they soak evenly--if it doesn't soak evenly you end up with stains and/or differences in paper consistency because one area was allowed to dry prematurely. The drying process is also kinda labor intensive as well especially when the cards get thicker (and can retain more water).

When removing attached or stubborn paper on the backs of the cards I will find a weak spot in the paper and actually turn the water on pretty hot and hold the card under a slow but steady stream of the hot water(stream diameter not to exceed about 3 mm) the weight of water stream and the heat will tend to dislodge the stubborn paper.

Keep in mind there are MANY different types of glue that were used--get to know the nature of the glue first before commiting to doing large volumes--try a beat up card first and you may need to alter the way you go abou the soak depending on how that one does. Most used simpe flur/water mix and if that is the case that is the stuff that soaks best.

REMEMBER: Know the type of ink being used--some cards have water soluable ink--obviously NEVER EVER SOAK these. You can test a little water in an inconspicuous areas on a beater to test but most lithography will tolerate soaking just find. Some sets to never soak... Clement Bothers cards ARE water soluble front ink so don't soak those! (that would be an expensive lesson). Also Colgan's Chips have slightly soluble ink on back so if you soak those too long the ink smears and you end up with a mess but the front image won't be harmed--I've never tried to soak a Red Border.

Sorry for the "stream of conciousness" form of this post but it has some very basic info everyone needs to know prior to trying to start soaking anything.

[scottglevy]

Got a few cards with very heavy tobacco staining ... PB (go figure). I once tried a brief soaking -- couple of hours but no dice.

Is there any hope for removing the natural tobacco stains ... or should I light up a stogie and sniff some T206s?

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I also wouldn't recommend letting it soak overnight--some cards and trade cards (especially the early lithographed trade cards) if soaked too long will start to lose their enamel on front (especially areas of gilt or metallic printing, and for some reason the color red also seems to be the first to start breaking down). This also holds true for cards notorious for flaking or chipping (T209-2 and E94 immediately come to mind). A lot of 20th Century tobacco cards are pretty well made and can probably be soaked for days (but I wouldn't recommend that)--t206's are in this group as they soak extremely well, but don't let that get you overconfident as other sets are VERY different.

I have never bothered to use distilled water--I feel this is completely a waste of resources and time.

I actually will use warm to hot water and have found that to work best as it is actually denaturing/breaking the chemical bond between the paste and the two paper surfaces--thus it doesn't require the long soak time like cold water does. A shorter warm bath will be more fruitful than a long cold one as I get scared of the enamel loss--this becomes very obvious on 19th century issues---be VERY careful if you ever try to soak 19th Century cards as the photographic ones will simply peel off the hard cardboard backing but even the thick litho cards will begin to seperate pretty quickly. Each maker has slight differences--I have found Allen & Ginter cards (N2's, etc.) are generally 2 pieces stuck together and this is the way many Duke cards are as well but many of the Kimball brand cigarette cards are multiple layers of paper stuck together. I once was soaking some non-sports and an N185 Kimball Dancer was forgotten overnight and when I found it the next day it was 4-5 layers of paper floating in the sink (obviously unsalvageable, but a cheap lesson learned).

Never, never just let 'em sit for long periods of time--always do periodic checks--I tend to change the water (or add more warm water) to keep it from getting too cold. I'll also make sure the cards are completely submerged or flip them so they soak evenly--if it doesn't soak evenly you end up with stains and/or differences in paper consistency because one area was allowed to dry prematurely. The drying process is also kinda labor intensive as well especially when the cards get thicker (and can retain more water).

When removing attached or stubborn paper on the backs of the cards I will find a weak spot in the paper and actually turn the water on pretty hot and hold the card under a slow but steady stream of the hot water(stream diameter not to exceed about 3 mm) the weight of water stream and the heat will tend to dislodge the stubborn paper.

Keep in mind there are MANY different types of glue that were used--get to know the nature of the glue first before commiting to doing large volumes--try a beat up card first and you may need to alter the way you go abou the soak depending on how that one does. Most used simpe flur/water mix and if that is the case that is the stuff that soaks best.

REMEMBER: Know the type of ink being used--some cards have water soluable ink--obviously NEVER EVER SOAK these. You can test a little water in an inconspicuous areas on a beater to test but most lithography will tolerate soaking just find. Some sets to never soak... Clement Bothers cards ARE water soluble front ink so don't soak those! (that would be an expensive lesson). Also Colgan's Chips have slightly soluble ink on back so if you soak those too long the ink smears and you end up with a mess but the front image won't be harmed--I've never tried to soak a Red Border.

Sorry for the "stream of conciousness" form of this post but it has some very basic info everyone needs to know prior to trying to start soaking anything.

Great information, Rhett.

[FrankWakefield]

Maybe the Great Quoter could have an original thought of his own... or just continue to stomp on mine. I stand by a T206 soaking for a day or more, with no problems. Try it, Rob, then you'll know what your quoting about.

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, reread my first paragraph--I didn't disagree with you in regards to t206 cards--you can soak those till you are blue in the face and you will probably be fine, I just wanted to point out that other sets are VERY different and soaking those can get problematic if using that same method--there is no one way to soak everything, practice and experience is required to find the best ways to soak cards (or if soaking is even an option).
-Rhett

[FrankWakefield]

First Rhett, I understood your post. I agree with it. Some cards should never go into water. Some can withstand a dousing for a few minutes. T206s can easily go overnight, a day, or two.

Secondly, I was reacting, perhaps a bit hastily, to the subsequent post, that was a massive quote and struck me as if it was to suggest that I was wrong about soaking a T206. My post wasn't in response to yours, Rhett. I don't seek out Rob's posts just to disagree with them or play a passive aggressive game. And I sometimes get weary of him doing that to me. Some folks doing that have run a few fellows away from the board, we'd all be better off if that knowledge pool had remained here.

I used distilled water a few times, but I think it's a waste. I used it on some cards when I was unsure that they would soak.

As for warm water, it's just a bit faster... but carries with it the risk of possibly having foreign ink bleed. Philatelists try to avoid warm water, they know what they're doing. Sometimes the red cancellations run a bit, but not as much in cold water. (There's a reason that colored clothes wash in cold water.)

[caramelcard]

Nice post Rhett.

I've soaked thousands of cards and learned many lessons. I don't soak randomly to improve cards, but mostly to remove from albums that I have found over the years. Different issues need to approached in different ways, but T206 (and T206 era non-sports) hold up better to a longer soak.

M116 is a tricky issue to soak and the colors wash out very easy which is why you see so many faded colors with these. Same with E98 and E94.

I use hot water and try not to leave the cards unattended for a long period of time. I also think distilled water is unnecessary unless you live in Phoenix or Vegas or somewhere with really bad tap water. To reiterate what Rhett mentioned, many 19th century cards can not be soaked for long at all before they separate and should be watched.

If you have an album with cards that are back to back, that will be your biggest challenge. Have Q Tips handy and don't hurry any paper off of cards unless you have to sacrifice one card to save another which can happen with back to back glue.

As previous posts mention, change the water during soaks and inspect and rinse the cards before pressing as they usually have bits of paper or glue remnants from the water that stick to them. Pat them dry before pressing.

Take your time with how long you let them dry between books.

Happy soaking!

Rob

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks Robert A., you answered my question before I could ask

The tap water here is horrible.........I don't think I'd use this tap water to soak a card.

This is a great thread with a lot of good information. I don't plan on soaking any cards, but always like to learn. Thanks .

Sincerely, Clayton

[Theoldprofessor]

... a chemical. Two parts H to one part O. The molecule looks like Mickey (Mouse, not Dooin), the hydrogen "ears" separated by about 105 degrees. It's one of the finest solvents in all of nature, which of course is why we're using it.

Can anyone tell me why it's not on the list of unsuitable chemicals? Because it occurs "naturally?" This crowd is too smart to fall for that old saw. Some of the most deadly botanical poisons occur naturally. And as for natural fluids, anyone care to employ a few milligrams of cobra venom on the cards?

Barry Arnold, what's your opinion on this?

[brob28]

Guys, thank you for all the advice. I'm going to start with a 61 Koufax that has tape residue down the left and right borders. It's not in great condition anyway, so no real risk of trashing a high dollar card. If my results are worthwhile I'll share some pics. Thanks again for all the great information shared on this awesome site.

[Mikehealer]

Bill I wouldn't soak a Topps card. I wouldn't think they would do very well in water. Try a t206 beater if you are looking to do a test run.

[FrankWakefield]

A 1961 Topps will not soak. The card will separate apart. Don't soak it.

[rhettyeakley]

Bill, you are not going to have success soaking in water to get rid of a tape stain. Water is a solvent, but not everything is soluble in water--tape adhesive is generally not water soluble...there are other solvents out there that may result in a decent removal of tape adhesive and/or residue but I don't know that you will have much success if the card itself is stained from the adhesive.

Soaking starts getting much trickier when you start looking at 1930/40's to the present. With the introduction of industrial adhesives you will begin to have much less luck with simple water soaking. For example if anything is put in with rubber cement soaking will not do you any good.
-Rhett

Here is the Koesters Brown cleaned up

[BleedinBlue]

Any thoughts, tips or concerns with soaking 1941 Goudey cards?

[Ease]

Looks like that turned out nicely. Good job Andrew!

[FrankWakefield]

If that was your first soak, I don't doubt that you worried quite a bit... needlessly. Thanks for posting the visual proof of the good results, so others will see the wisdom of it (for cards that will safely soak).

Very first card I ever let take a bath. Then I did the T206 Chesboro and got the back sparkly clean again, and then did a few of the T205's from the partial set I bought. Seems to be very easy as long as you are patient and watch them

[Vol]

You did a great job.

[jezzeaepi]

I have never done any soaking before, but had a few newbie questions.

Does soaking do anything to degrade the card?
Is there anyway to tell if a card has been soaked, and if so do they have any less value?
Have people been doing this long enough to know the long term results? As in, does a soaked card look any different from a non soaked card 30 years later?

The soaking thing kind of reminds me how people used to trim down cards to make them fit into binders or just "look nicer," but 50 years down the road, people started to care about trimming. I just wonder if, 50 years from now, people will say"Oh, that tycobb has never been soaked, its worth twice as much!" Kind of how an antique is worth less if you clean it. Thoughts?

Edit to add, that clearly in this case it makes a ton of sense since the card had stuff stuck to it.


Peace,
Jesse

[FrankWakefield]

no, no, yes, no.


Pick an old T206 beater with scrapbook bits or dirt on it, and give it a try. Many of the 'nice' graded T206s are that nice because they were once pasted into a scrapbook. I'd guess that soaking has been going on for 80 years or so....

[jezzeaepi]

Thanks Frank.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by jezzeaepi

Does soaking do anything to degrade the card?

Hi Jesse,

Though cards that have been soaked certainly can and will receive high grades (both from hobbyists and third-party grading companies) it's worth mentioning that some collectors consider soaking to be a form of altering a card. Not on the level of trimming, coloring, erasing marks, etc, but still a form of alteration, in some people's minds.

So even though the card isn't degraded, there still are collectors opposed to soaking. Not as many as those who condemn other forms of alteration, obviously, but there are collectors who think that soaking a card is wrong.

[peterose4hof]

Can T202 Hassan Triple Folders be soaked? If so, any tips or suggestions?

Thanks!

[rp12367]

I destroyed a T212 last week, I had soaked a few beaters in the past. But this one lost half the ink on front... Any other issues/thoughts with T212's. Thx

[Exhibitman]

I once had a T212 that looked like it had been intentionally saturated with oil which had gotten quite dark over the ages I guess. I asked around with some conservators and one recommended a product called "Bestine"; said it would remove some of the oily residue but not all. I used it on the card and removed a great deal of the oil. Turned the card from trash to something that was suitable as a filler. It did not affect the printing at all but did leave the white of the card grayish. Now, given that the card was entirely a dark brown stain before, it was a great improvement, but I'd not do it on a nicer card without testing first.

[mdschulze]

I've got a t206 with old tape residue on the top and bottom. The card is stained but not sticky at all. Will soaking this card help remove the tape stain? Thanks for everyone's input... interesting thread!

[milkit1]

lets see more before and after photos!!!

[FrankWakefield]

Mike, can you post a "before" scan of the T206 with the tape ? Then I'll offer an answer.

[brob28]

Guys, thanks for the warnings on the 61 Topps card. You caught me in time, I'll "play" with something else. BTW - just curious if most on the forum would be upset if they bought a card and later found out it had been soaked? It seems most are not overly concerned with soaking, but we all might be just thinking from the perspective that we are soaking our own cards for our personal use.

[FrankWakefield]

Some folks would be outraged if they knowingly bought a soaked card, they perceive it to be altering the card. Many of the nice slabbed old cards have been soaked. Some of the righteous folks are in denial about that. They refuse to believe it, or just don't want to... To most, soaking (in water) isn't a problem. I think it's ok, I think a potential buyer who asks should be told the truth... In my view it is no big deal.

[mdschulze]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Mike, can you post a "before" scan of the T206 with the tape ? Then I'll offer an answer.

Thanks Frank for reviewing!