spence authentication knowledge or reputation

[sflayank]

today JSA was at a local card show....I brought with me a muhammad ali 8x10 photo...the photo was signed by ali in my presence 16 years ago at the sawgrass mills mall in sunrise florida...at the time that was probably the biggest mall card show there was...i was set up at the table directly in front of the autograph signing podium...at the end of the signing session..the sunrise police office on stage...a baseball card collector and buddy of mine...had ali sign 5 photos...he kept 2 and gave the other 3 to myself and the 2 dealers next to me..i placed the photo on one of those old wooden plaques that noone uses anymore...and its been in my closet for 16 years...today Mr Spence told me in his opinion it was a forgery...so after 3 seconds of examination and $75 my personally witnessed autograph became worthless...the lesson here is just further proof that having a reputation gives you a license to steal...he did not compare to any examples...was he comparing it to his memory of ali's signature today...does he know what it looked like 16 years ago...or was he just making $75 for 3 seconds of work....you tell me

[jg8422]

That is the exact reason why I always remind myself not to get too involved in the autograph scene. I have a bunch of autos the I had signed in person and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them came back bad.

Where you getting it authenticated to sell the item?

[Ejm1]

This happened to me with a Derrick Thomas card I had signed in person in May of 1997. It was part of a promotion at the Football Hall of Fame, he was seated with Len Dawson in a calm controlled atmosphere, so his signature was not rushed. Anywhoo...The last time the National was in Cleveland I had JSA do there thing and in there opinion it was fake. Easy money. Following year gave PSA a try and passed with flying colors. I think since I was a no name collector and I have an autograph of a short lived Hall of Famer and also that I'm a little on the younger side in age, JSA really never gave much effort in it's examination.

[sflayank]

yes i was getting it authenticated to sell
i dont collect autographs and just found it while cleaning out stuff
nobody buys today unless authenticated so for $75 i figured id get 150 back and get rid of it...instead i threw $75 down the drain and just gave it to a dealer at the show there..

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by sflayank

today JSA was at a local card show....I brought with me a muhammad ali 8x10 photo...the photo was signed by ali in my presence 16 years ago at the sawgrass mills mall in sunrise florida...at the time that was probably the biggest mall card show there was...i was set up at the table directly in front of the autograph signing podium...at the end of the signing session..the sunrise police office on stage...a baseball card collector and buddy of mine...had ali sign 5 photos...he kept 2 and gave the other 3 to myself and the 2 dealers next to me..i placed the photo on one of those old wooden plaques that noone uses anymore...and its been in my closet for 16 years...today Mr Spence told me in his opinion it was a forgery...so after 3 seconds of examination and $75 my personally witnessed autograph became worthless...the lesson here is just further proof that having a reputation gives you a license to steal...he did not compare to any examples...was he comparing it to his memory of ali's signature today...does he know what it looked like 16 years ago...or was he just making $75 for 3 seconds of work....you tell me

You are paying for an opinion. Mistakes do happen as the process is not 100 percent full proof by a long shot. Mr. Spence, PSA and ALL the other "authenticators" are not wizards and/or superhuman(including the ones on this board). In fairness, do you have scans of the rejection letter and item that you can post? Sorry you had such a bad experience.

[bluebirds]

Regardless of Spence's ability or lack of same, I don't blame him for getting fool's to part with their money. Because collectors buy into his and PSA's so called "expertise", they need to look no further than into a mirror and ask why anyone would pay $75 for a 3 second opinion and a wrong one at that?

Martin Green

[Ejm1]

Originally Posted by bluebirds

Regardless of Spence's ability or lack of same, I don't blame him for getting fool's to part with their money. Because collectors buy into his and PSA's so called "expertise", they need to look no further than into a mirror and ask why anyone would pay $75 for a 3 second opinion and a wrong one at that?

Martin Green

Most collectors and dealers think without JSA or PSA what you have is crap, and thats why you trust in these folks to get it correct. If you try to sell without the cert. you get the "Sure it's real kid" crap. I've never sold an auto in my life but if I ever do I will have to have them certified. Thats the nature of the beast.

[travrosty]

it's not true, you can sell items not certified, me and my friends do it all the time, we sell at retail too. we just sell to collectors who are serious collectors and know what they are buying. the good stuff will sell without a cert by one of the guessing companies. i am not against 3rd party authentication, just the way it is done now. i think mr. simon is better than most, and doesnt deserved to be lumped into the big companies that take 3 seconds to tell you that you have a fake. but its par for the course when these companies set up in booths at shows. they want to pump through the material and collect as much cash as they can.

but you certainly don't need authentication in the form of 3rd party certificates to sell items. if you must have one, check out the authenticator, get the name of the person who is actually looking at your item. if they dont give it to you, then vote with your wallet and go elsewhere.

Travis Roste

[canjond]

Speaking of Spence, what does this COA mean?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-...item56446ab85a

It lists the keys as Branca and Barney. Does that mean the Jackie is not authentic? Why list those two guys as keys? In the past, I thought JSA would list textually if one of the signatures was bad or clubhouse. This, to me, is very confusing. Anyone know?

[travrosty]

you would think after the 5 second forged sal bando autograph debacle where the jsa authenticator didn't even take the signed photo into his own hands, and then told the lady "i trust you", that they would take more time authenticating signatures, but i guess not. its a sad situation.

[Rich Klein]

But just to make a different point about autographs --

Back back in the day, one of the guys I used to work with at Beckett got an autograph from Frank (Big Hurt) Thomas in spring training in 1990. He got that autograph in person and I have no doubt that his is 100 percent authentic.

Yet, even he realized that said autograph would probably never pass authentication becuase the signature is so much clearer than the signature he had just a year or so later when he became a major league star.

The point is,... sigs do change --- and while it is more expensive -- sometimes in the show situation -- having the autograph autheticated at that point may save hassles later, especially is a signature changes over time (usually with people who are becoming more famous or having health issues)

Regards
Rich

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

You are paying for an opinion. Mistakes do happen as the process is not 100 percent full proof by a long shot. Mr. Spence, PSA and ALL the other "authenticators" are not wizards and/or superhuman(including the ones on this board). In fairness, do you have scans of the rejection letter and item that you can post? Sorry you had such a bad experience.

James Spence Authentications issues Letters of Authenticity (LOA). The word "authenticity" in the title gives the distinct impression that there is little wiggle room for doubt. If these are only "opinions" that are subject to change due to varying factors, then issue a Letter of Opinion (LOO). That is far more honest. By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by canjond

Speaking of Spence, what does this COA mean?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Jackie-Robinson-...item56446ab85a

It lists the keys as Branca and Barney. Does that mean the Jackie is not authentic? Why list those two guys as keys? In the past, I thought JSA would list textually if one of the signatures was bad or clubhouse. This, to me, is very confusing. Anyone know?

If you look in the bok at the upper left, there is general info about the itme, which lists the subject as "Jackie Robinson et al"

The "Keys" in the text are key signatures other than him. JSA thinks this Robinson is legit.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

James Spence Authentications issues Letters of Authenticity (LOA). The word "authenticity" in the title gives the distinct impression that there is little wiggle room for doubt. If these are only "opinions" that are subject to change due to varying factors, then issue a Letter of Opinion (LOO). That is far more honest. By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

Dear.... Orioles1954,

Do you have an example of an LOO that you could post? The letters I have seen states "In our considered OPINION". Wiggle room??? One would have to be a fool to think it was not an opinion. The terms LOA and COA have been around far before JSA AND PSA when the vast majority of those items were bad. I sold my collection today, I would have each and every item accompanied by an LOA from JSA AND/OR PSA. Again, they are not flawlesss but they do bring the highest realized prices on average.

Ben

[Mr. Zipper]

This is an unfortunate scenario that has probably played out many times. My sense is that certain heavily forged autographs are probably prone to getting the thumbs down if there is the slightest atypical characteristic.

The flip side of this scenario is that if JSA or PSA approves an item that looks the least bit fishy, certain attack sites will plaster it all over the front page and message boards screaming how incompetent they are and urge people to report them to the FBI.

Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I really do understand how some experienced hobbyists resent third party authenticators and how they seemingly swooped in and became the be all and end all. But I think the anger should really be reserved for the forging scum. They are the ones who created the [perceived] need for third party authenticators.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

By the way, are there any certified forensic handwriting experts employed by either JSA or PSA/DNA? Or are we just going by the "I have 25 years in the hobby..." mish mash as criteria?

Would you have more confidence in PSA or JSA if they hired a "court certified" forensic document examiner?

Since being banned from eBay, FDEs such as Chris Morales, Nicholas Burczyk and Don Frangipani are probably looking for additional work.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

This is an unfortunate scenario that has probably played out many times. My sense is that certain heavily forged autographs are probably prone to getting the thumbs down if there is the slightest atypical characteristic.
The flip side of this scenario is that if JSA or PSA approves an item that looks the least bit fishy, certain attack sites will plaster it all over the front page and message boards screaming how incompetent they are and urge people to report them to the FBI.
Sometimes it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. I really do understand how some experienced hobbyists resent third party authenticators and how they seemingly swooped in and became the be all and end all. But I think the anger should really be reserved for the forging scum. They are the ones who created the [perceived] need for third party authenticators.

+1

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Dear.... Orioles1954,

Do you have an example of an LOO that you could post? The letters I have seen states "In our considered OPINION". Wiggle room??? One would have to be a moron to think it was not an opinion. The terms LOA and COA have been around far before JSA AND PSA when the vast majority of those items were bad. I sold my collection today, I would have each and every item accompanied by an LOA from JSA AND/OR PSA. Again, they are not flawlesss but they do bring the highest realized prices on average.

Ben

As requested...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/...037fdcae_z.jpg

"Considered opinions are like.....". It's a wishy washy phrase that allows for shortcuts and backpeddling. I guarantee Mear's "opinion" was reached after far greater consultation than with the OP's item.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Would you have more confidence in PSA or JSA if they hired a "court certified" forensic document examiner?

Since being banned from eBay, FDEs such as Chris Morales, Nicholas Burczyk and Don Frangipani are probably looking for additional work.

Hahaha...good point. I just wish the "considered opinions" are weighed in light of their leaders being long-time dealers rather than something more.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by orioles1954

as requested...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3385/...037fdcae_z.jpg

"considered opinions are like.....". It's a wishy washy phrase that allows for shortcuts and backpeddling. I guarantee mear's "opinion" was reached after far greater consultation than with the op's item.

are you seriously comparing mears with jsa and psa??? Case closed.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Forever Young

are you seriously comparing mears with jsa and psa??? Case closed.

Whatever makes you feel better. It is honest. You asked for an example, I gave one...case...

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Whatever makes you feel better. It is honest. You asked for an example, I gave one...case...

You sure did.

[Orioles1954]

Have it your way. You can be tied to your "considered opinion" and I will be tied to mine.

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Have it your way. You can be tied to your "considered opinion" and I will be tied to mine.

I am not tied to anything as it appears you are. I have no agenda other than enjoying and protecting the hobby which I love.

[HRBAKER]

Why does it cost more to authenticate a more expensive signature at a show? Do they take longer? Do they use more resources? Is there a greater risk involved? Is there any risk involved really with a "considered opinion?"

[mcgwirecom]

I soured toward a certain big name authenticator years ago when he started authenticating vitually every autograph known to man. At first he only authenticated some of the big names in baseball. I thought that was fine. But after being offered more money, suddenly he was an expert on every name in all sports. The turning point was when a friend sent in a basketball signed by about 15 players on the 2001 Arizona mens basketball team to be authenticated. SERIOUSLY??? you have expert knowledge and/or exemplars from the second string forward on the 2001 Arizona basketball team? I don't even believe you know his name!

[sflayank]

thats exactly right..if anything they should charge less for more expensive autographs because those are the ones they SHOULD be so familiar with they can identify immediately...ie..mantle williams dimaggio ruth etc
and the other point...there is no way spence or anyone else for that matter can authenticate joe jacksons autograph for example....until 15 years ago they all said it didnt exist...now there are 50 examples...what did they compare them to? how about bill burbach signature? whos that ? exactly? and yet he can authenticate it in 5 seconds...does he or anyone really know his signature by heart....experts become experts solely based on reputation and the publics willingness to accept that

[cliftons8]

I agree that it is an opinion, but at $75 you deserve the time and effort of how he got to that opinion. Do they take the item behind a curtain, or is it done in front of you? Can you ask questions? I would think for the money people need to be treated better and time spent to show why he thinks it is not real. Sorry that you got a raw deal.

Mike

[sflayank]

oh yes..and by the way what i didnt mention here...does anyone else here realize that spence himself probably doesnt even look at your piece...he was there yesterday...and one of his team was actually the person whose opinion i have to live with....spence never even looked at it...so apparently his team are experts too....and i should have asked for my money back...since i paid for spence to authenticate it...not a team member.. and the only role spence himself played was pocketing my cash

[Exhibitman]

This 'court certified' forensic document examiner nonsense also needs some sunlight. The associations that certify these people are diploma mills. Government authorities and courts don't certify witnesses--they do certify (at least in CA) translators to work translating testimony and documents, but not experts to opine on whether a document is genuine or a signature is real. What they mean when they say they are court qualified is that a court has allowed them to testify as an expert witness. The rule on that is loose: as long as the witness can show some expertise above that of a layman he will be allowed to testify, which is called being "qualified" as an expert. Any of us could qualify to testify as experts on what we collect. Doesn't mean our opinions are worth a damn, just that we have enough of a resume to give them. It is left to the judge and jury to decide if they are idiots or not.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

And try speaking to a real live woman.

Your mom is not happy with the blow up doll collection??

Sorry I could not resist

[drc]

It's up to the individual judge to decide who is allowed as an expert witness in a case, and many judges are wary of forensic signature experts in general. Some don't allow them in as experts.

[HRBAKER]

Frankly we get what we are willing to accept, and in a way deserve it. This hobby in general has grown for years in a totally unregulated manner and with very few accountable for much of anything. People complain about auction houses, auction house owners, grading companies, authenticators, the list goes on and on, yet they continue to flourish. Why, because we are all like little kids at the end of the day when it comes to the "stuff." Stuff trumps all, just like the crack addict who is none too discerning where the rock comes from.

[Bilko G]

Originally Posted by sflayank

oh yes..and by the way what i didnt mention here...does anyone else here realize that spence himself probably doesnt even look at your piece...he was there yesterday...and one of his team was actually the person whose opinion i have to live with....spence never even looked at it...so apparently his team are experts too....and i should have asked for my money back...since i paid for spence to authenticate it...not a team member.. and the only role spence himself played was pocketing my cash

Oh wow, yes as soon as the "team member" failed it, you should have immediately asked for Spence to view it himself. Im very sorry this happened to you.

[Piedmont Sport]

We are currently trying 2 new companies that use the same large exemplar list but also check for embedded ink - age of paper and ink together - slant and correctness of time period autograph - type of item it was signed on {did it change the sig.} - Object evaluation as well as many other issues that seem to always come up. The drawback is the time to get your item back - 3-4 weeks - / For any buyer or seller you may want to stay away from a dealer who has a large inventory ungraded - but says i'll get it certed - and the item gets done in 30 seconds - I think thats what upset the Ali owner - how can you tell in 5 seconds without examing the item that was done 16 years ago - not to say autographs done 100 years ago - People are buying the cert and not the sig. - trust me many a dealer has said the same thing.

[keithsky]

As soon as these authenticators stated using the word "In our opinion" the 3rd party stuff went downhill because they don't have to be accountable for anything. You and me can say Our Opinion and it's the same thing except these guys are sucking your money for No Responsibility.

[A2000]

Sorry to hear about your bad news.

Would it be possible to post a picture of the Ali signature for us to see?

[bunst]

So I'm in a similar situation where I wish to sell a few autographed items that were signed in front of me. Not going to use JSA after what I've read. What other autograph authentication services are out there that can be recommended?

[RichardSimon]

I was on jury duty in NYC.
I was called for a very famous case, and due to the hardship that it would create for me(3 months of jury duty) I was excused from the case.
I followed the case in the newspapers.
Both sides in the case had "handwriting experts" testifying.
The defendant's expert testified that yes the questioned document was legitimate and the prosecution expert said no it was not legitimate.
The point being that "handwiting experts" can be bought and paid for and if you shop for one you can find one to give you the opinion you want.
The defendant was found guilty meaning his expert who said the document was legitimate was probably not believed by the jury.
As an authenticator I only accept autographs for examination that I am familar with. I do not deem myself to be an expert in many types of autographs and I don't maintain a big staff or have a large advertising budget like my esteemed competitors.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

As an authenticator I only accept autographs for examination that I am familar with. I do not deem myself to be an expert in many types of autographs and I don't maintain a big staff or have a large advertising budget like my esteemed competitors.

Throughtout the years, I have purchased 6 items from Richard Simon and had 1 other item authenticated.

I have sold 6 of the items each with only the letter/card from Richard and never once did any of the buyers question the item authenticity.

No one asked me for a document or opinion from a so called "Major", Why?

I had the best

[GrayGhost]

It all still boils down to an opinion. The "big boys" have knowledge, yes, but make mistakes too just like anyone. Common sense is something many autograph buyers lack, and they should also research signatures. That said, JSA, PSA/DNA are the biggest because they do have a HUGE budget and knowledge too. But, people like Richard are just as good, w/out the "huge staff" as he stated, plus limiting to what he knows. (Ive heard of JSA authenticating Rock and Roll sigs too, they r experts in that area?).

In the end, its who you are comftorable with, and for the buyer, the same thing. Apart from some like Morales and others who certify many "patently bad sigs", make your best choice and enjoy collecting.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by murphusa

Throughtout the years, I have purchased 6 items from Richard Simon and had 1 other item authenticated.

I have sold 6 of the items each with only the letter/card from Richard and never once did any of the buyers question the item authenticity.

No one asked me for a document or opinion from a so called "Major", Why?

I had the best

all fine and dandy, but can richard give his opinion in 3 secs flat? that's the true test of a real expert...

[murphusa]

on some things I would guess yes

[RichardSimon]

I was on a short vacation guys, just got back, so this response is a little delayed.
On bad forgeries, 3 seconds or less is enough time to be able to give an informed opinion.
Anything else does take more time, sometimes considerably more time.
That is what my exemplar file is for.

[chaddurbin]

i was making a joke with the 3 sec thing as that's how long it took an "expert" to reject OP's ali sig.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

i was making a joke with the 3 sec thing as that's how long it took an "expert" to reject OP's ali sig.

I understood that.
Just wanted to clarify that on occasion 3 seconds is all it takes with some of the forgeries I do see.
There are times I can even name the forger in that amount of time.
When you see someone's forgeries for so many years you know what his crap looks like.

[blaze422]

FWIW, 5 years ago I picked up on ebay an item signed by Ruth et al at the opening of the HOF that had an online authentication from Sothebys. When I tried to flip it with MastroNet they sent it to Spence who declined to authenticate.

Sothebys letter was impressive to me, but.... easy come , easy go.