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How come you and Scott say it was a shill when, in post 4, Tony says there are lesser looking examples that only went for a little less? This was not an extraordinarily high price with respect to those? Unless there is more to it, I think ya'll are reckless in this particular case. NO doubt there are consignors or friends and family that shill on ebay (and in AH's auctions) but I would be careful about accusing with no corroborating evidence.
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Leon Luckey |
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Leon- I hope you are right as I'm going after a 'big dog' tonight.
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
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My comment was more in general, but was irresponsible since it was made in a thread about a specific item.
That being said the two bidders with the most individual bids on the Matty have 52% and 72% of all of their bids with PWCC. Coupled with the fact that these two bidders inched the price up in tandem does cause one (me anyway) concern. However this is not a knock on Brent, as I am currently pondering how to prevent this kind of thing in my own online auction
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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Hmm...
Also odd was the ending result bid for the T206 W. Johnson portrait PSA 1.5 that went for $1,650.
On ebay recently a PSA 1 went for $375. And there is currently up on ebay a PSA 2 with BIN for $1,299.99 So, is someone really buying the PSA 1.5 for $1,650. and passing on the PSA 2 for $1,299.99 ? Last edited by Touch'EmAll; 10-15-2018 at 10:58 AM. |
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I actually took a look at both, and I can certainly understand why someone would pay more for the 1.5 over the 2.
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I've noticed that there are more and more lower graded cards selling for big money these days. The new REA catalog is full of them. Could it be that Net54's BST has enough clout to change shopping habits?
__________________
. "A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson “If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente |
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And I also believe in the premise that N54 has a big influence on pricing trends. |
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VCP has images, they aren't hard to get. Here you go.
I feel like the price for the SGC was too high. Market value for their "holders" isn't really the same, and in these mid grades there are often flaws that PSA probably downgrades. I know I'm speaking broadly, but I think most that try and cross would tell you the same thing - expectation from SGC to PSA should normally be a grade lower. There are exceptions, and this might be one. As someone who collects T206 portraits I can say the Matty is a tough one to find in the mid-grades that really ticks all the boxes. I've owned 4-5 of them at different times between 3-6, but don't currently have one as I still have not found the right one. I don't think the auction bidding looks all that suspect, the winner put in two bids. One at $100, one to win. This one sold in REA in May for $3,600 Registration is off, centering is good, color is really good This one sold in PWCC in April for $3471, and in PWCC in February before that (...no additional comment) for $3018 Registration is really good, centering is great but color isn't quite as vivid This one sold in Memory Lane in January for $2827 Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great This on sold in Goldin last November for $3300, and in PWCC in March 2017 for $3450 (oops...) Registration is a little off, centering is great and color is great And the SGC 5 Certified High End for $4209 Registration is great, centering is great, color is great |
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My original point was really focused on the continued escalation of the T206 "big boys". But, you have to be careful comparing color from different scans. There's a lot of variability in scanners, as well as how much an image has been processed to look good. You can tell a lot just looking at the differences in border colors on the PSA flips.
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An$on Lyt!e |
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2018 at 06:34 PM. |
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I think the psa 5 in 2017 is the nicest. The corners are sharper.
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+1
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 |
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This thread has been particularly interesting (and entertaining) to me, due to the fact that I am the buyer of the card. The price was high, but not insane in my opinion, and I am happy with the purchase. I researched past sales carefully to determine a price that I was comfortable with. For me, it simply came down to the fact that this particular card (IMO) had significantly better eye appeal than other recent mid grade sales (listed on VCP), and I bid accordingly. Incidentally, I think the SGC 5 card that I purchased last night and the PSA 5 card (posted above by bounce) with cert # ending in 146 are the same card. Contrast is definitely different in the scans, but appears to be the same card... I am a collector, with no intention of selling the card, and could not care less about the PWCC sticker (that I will probably remove), or set registries. Mid grade T206 portraits of elite HOFers, that are very well centered with good color and registration, just aren’t that easy to find, and I knew that I would have to bid strong to have a chance of winning the card. I bid twice on the card. Once at $100 (which was pretty pointless), and the final bid that I placed with about 10 seconds left in the auction. I hope that there was no shilling, but I guess it is always possible in an online auction. This was definitely no bargain purchase, but I am happy to have won the card and look forward to getting it in hand and adding it to my collection. I appreciate all the comments in this thread, including those that say I way overpaid. Thanks all!
Andrew Last edited by Andrew1975; 10-15-2018 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Correct typo |
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the moral of the story is it's easy to criticize other people's purchases when they don't fit your perception of what's acceptable. more often than not these people find themselves doing more bitching than buying. |
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__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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Andrew - Congrats on a FANTASTIC acquisition. Well done. You will not regret that purchase one bit. I have over-paid for most of my collection and now glad I bought them when I did.
[QUOTE=bounce;1819999]VCP has images, they aren't hard to get. Here you go. I feel like the price for the SGC was too high. Market value for their "holders" isn't really the same, and in these mid grades there are often flaws that PSA probably downgrades. I know I'm speaking broadly, but I think most that try and cross would tell you the same thing - expectation from SGC to PSA should normally be a grade lower. There are exceptions, and this might be one. David - While I don't completely disagree with your sentiment. And I know you are speaking more in a general sense, however, I do believe that PSA is intentionally harder on crossovers. I've seen too many stories where a card is rejected in its slab, but have a very high rate of success once it's submitted raw. Also, PSA and SGC are tougher on different flaws so their grades reflect that. We also know there a many PSA cards out there that wouldn't even receive the same grade today due to their tightening the screws. So de-valuing any SGC card graded years ago because it won't cross isn't completely fair because many PSA cards would fail as well. I guess my main point is using the blanket sentiment that SGC cards should be viewed a 1 grade lower is not entirely fair. Each card is it's own unique situation. Many are worthy and many are not. Tough to put a percentage on it. As someone who collects T206 portraits I can say the Matty is a tough one to find in the mid-grades that really ticks all the boxes. I've owned 4-5 of them at different times between 3-6, but don't currently have one as I still have not found the right one. This I am in total agreement. Many of the top tier portraits are tough to find that check all the boxes. I think collectors are really honing in on that. I couldn't be happier with my 4. |
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Johnson 1.5.jpgJohnson 2.jpg and that's not paper loss on the left border of the 1.5 is a print flaw that is found on a few Johnson Portraits. Johnson Border Flaw.jpg |
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Last edited by boneheadandrube; 10-15-2018 at 10:45 PM. |
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I'm not trying to defend every bidding situation we see on PWCC here, but what you're describing there as tandem bidding is what happens in an auction as a bidding war no? I will sometimes place multiple bids at the end of an auction if it turns out my snipe was set too low, it can be a matter of impulse. I think some folks have that same impulse for the duration of the auction. Its not smart as it can lead to being bid up but I'm sure you've met competitive people who might enjoy doing the back and forth on an item especially if its below market price. Add a hot item into that equation and I'm sure you will find two bidders duking it out in an auction. Why would you want to prevent that in your own online auctions? I don't think that potential consignors with you will find that appealing. Not everyone has the same bidding habits that you might think are normal/traditional. Whenever an ebay seller has 200-400 T206's listed in an auction on ebay my bidding percentage with them usually ends up above 75% for the duration of the auction as I collect T206. With the amount of advertising PWCC does I'll bet there are more than a few who don't bid on ebay unless its with PWCC, this would raise their percentage.. There are also not that many good cards auctioned as compared to lsited with a high set price, so bidding my be narrowed down to a certain seller when they have a large offering. If you think about these things objectively you can see reasons for things that might otherwise be red flags. I don't see the price of Matty as crazy either, it went $500 higher than the last one... Just my 2c. |
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The real dubious indicator to look for is bid retractions.
__________________
Flawless BST transactions with Wondo, Marslife, arcadekrazy, Moonlight Graham, Arazi4442, wrestlingcardking and Justus. |
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PWCC isn't an auction house where the closing clock gets reset repeatedly. Last edited by Snapolit1; 10-15-2018 at 12:02 PM. |
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No one of these things (bid patterns, frequency with pwcc, etc) is conclusive, but taken as a whole it's at the least suspicious.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 10-15-2018 at 12:48 PM. |
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as for the price of the matty, t206 prices of iconic hofers are outpacing the market, and the sgc 5 has better eye appeal imo than recent psa 5 sales in the mid 3k range. we're seeing more examples of sgc cards getting psa prices in popular registry sets based on the eye appeal of the card rather than the grade or tpg company. that's a good thing for the hobby. |
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I don't care much about it but PWCC created a policy against it, but they don't enforce their own policies very consistently.
__________________
Check out https://www.thecollectorconnection.com Always looking for consignments 717.327.8915 We sell your less expensive pre-war cards individually instead of in bulk lots to make YOU the most money possible! and Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecollectorconnectionauctions |
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It also looks suspicious when it's done right out of the gate, nobody realistically is trying to win the auction on day one of ten but PWCC auctions have, or had at least, a lot of early string bidding. So it depends on context.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 10-15-2018 at 03:15 PM. |
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Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 10-15-2018 at 02:29 PM. |
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Last edited by griffon512; 10-15-2018 at 04:00 PM. |
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my point is that very strong eye appeal of a psa 4-5 t206 is adding a couple of grades to the final price, so the pop of a 4-5 is less relevant. pwcc's PQ and HE labels are a successful marketing tool to exploit that. buyers are willing to 6 prices for a really nice 4-5. that dynamic is less true of most 50s/60s cards -- with the exception of '51 and '52 mantle -- which have larger pops to begin with in general, and have less variation among high end examples because of better manufacturing processes 50 years later.
Last edited by griffon512; 10-15-2018 at 03:49 PM. |
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