Card doctoring...

[Leon]

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





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[Johnny630]

Throughout my TPG experience I have found that if SGC gives one of my cards a numerical grade I can take it to the bank that its real/authentic and unaltered. I trust SGC, imo they're accurate and very strick on their assesment of issues such as authenticity and alterations.

I'll buy SGC cards all day long over PSA.

[robkas68]

Although card doctoring has been around for decades the original motivation was mostly for the personal satisfaction of the collector. Obviously there was some money motivation 30 years ago, but nothing like today. And I cannot help but see the irony that the grading companies offer an expensive solution to a problem they helped create. (I'm an attorney and we are good at creating expensive solutions to problems we created too). I have a 1956 Mantle psa 6 and a psa 9. (the 9 by the way is overgraded and about as attractive as the 6).

30 years ago the reaction to the cards would be those are two nice Mantles, I'll give you an extra $20 for that one. Now that psa has dictated that the two cards have subtle differences that justify an insane $30,000 difference in price, there is powerful motivation for plastic surgery.

I collect mostly vintage, but last year I put together a 1986 Fleer basketball set all psa 8. I paid $11 for my psa 8 Johnny Moore card. Somebody paid over $15,000 for a psa 10. Can you honestly tell me that the small differences in the card of a journeyman player justify a $15,000 price difference. Especially since if we broke the cases and resubmitted they might both come back a "9".

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by robkas68

Although card doctoring has been around for decades the original motivation was mostly for the personal satisfaction of the collector. Obviously there was some money motivation 30 years ago, but nothing like today. And I cannot help but see the irony that the grading companies offer an expensive solution to a problem they helped create. (I'm an attorney and we are good at creating expensive solutions to problems we created too). I have a 1956 Mantle psa 6 and a psa 9. (the 9 by the way is overgraded and about as attractive as the 6).

30 years ago the reaction to the cards would be those are two nice Mantles, I'll give you an extra $20 for that one. Now that psa has dictated that the two cards have subtle differences that justify an insane $30,000 difference in price, there is powerful motivation for plastic surgery.

I collect mostly vintage, but last year I put together a 1986 Fleer basketball set all psa 8. I paid $11 for my psa 8 Johnny Moore card. Somebody paid over $15,000 for a psa 10. Can you honestly tell me that the small differences in the card of a journeyman player justify a $15,000 price difference. Especially since if we broke the cases and resubmitted they might both come back a "9".

A HUGE +1 there! And that's why I try to go after ultra-rare cards of stars and HOF'ers,rather than ultra-high grade ones. But collectors are by nature competitive, even if only with themselves, but especially so in striving to have something "better" than the next guy. It's in our DNA. As a consequence, for modern cards, "better" means a higher grade (or a card that is supposedly such). You are absolutely right--the actual difference in the cards bearing different grades many, many times can't come even remotely close to justifying the difference in prices paid. But those who collect cards with the "magical" "9" or "10" on their TPG holder believe that possessiing the one with the higher TPG grade gives them bragging rights. Collectors like me simply think they're wasting a lot of money on the holders and slips within them. I'm an attorney also, by the way--40 years of practice, primarily in personal injury law at the trial level, and both civil and criminal appeals, as well as petitions for writs of habeas corpus in the federal court system.

May your collecting bring you joy in any event,

Larry

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

PS: I believe it was Mastro that said that any pre-war card graded higher than a "7" had been tampered with. Buyers of TPG "8's" and "9's" from that era--caveat emptor!

And he probably had something to do with more than one of them. I don't doubt that assessment. I'll never forget one of the first times I realized all was not as it appeared. It was a group of Allen and Ginters, all graded 8. They looked skinny as hell. Another formative experience was a dealer friend observing that certain guys who bought his well-centered EX and EX MT cards at shows seemed to have the same cards in 8s at the next show.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

Unless we see the act of altering first hand we can't really say for sure (unless there is an admission )? That is a big issue.


And since we are on the subject, restoration and altering have been around a long time. No doubt before this too. The write-in is a familiar name too.





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pretty much as leon said...although even with cases with proof(before and after images) which appear periodically on this board...nothing seems to ever happen.

the cards should be destroyed or somehow permanently labelled as such... and TPG'ing companies should be held accountable for their errors.