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  #1  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:12 AM
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Default Pennant collectors

I am sure many of you noticed a recent group of three old ones on Ebay: 1927 Pirates, 1920 Indians, 1920 Dodgers. Curious to know your thoughts. I am convinced they are old; the style of pennant has certainly been seen before, notably in St. Louis pennants (Browns and Cardinals dated 1939) but they are not particularly common. These Champions pennants could have been made as part of a series. I seem to recall a dated '19 White Sox pennant that was similar? That one supposedly sold for over 10K somewhere, forget where I read that. The other peculiar thing was the color of the graphic; kinda hard to see as it is made of the exact same paint as that on the wide end.

Anyway, if anyone studied these and has any thoughts or even pictures of simiar ones in your collection, I'd be curious. As a collector myself I like to learn and discuss them whether I own them or not. Thanks and Happy New Year!
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  #2  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:34 AM
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Greg

Can you post a link to one of the auctions?
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  #3  
Old 01-05-2012, 06:51 AM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/370570474140...84.m1438.l2649
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  #4  
Old 01-05-2012, 11:43 AM
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Hi Max ... here's another link in addiiton to the one above:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330661222841...84.m1438.l2649

Greg
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  #5  
Old 01-05-2012, 12:41 PM
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3 different winners (Indians $1833, Dodger $1596, Pirates $1007)

Is it odd that all 3 are of the same make and style but 2 have 1920 & the other has 1927, so when were they made?


and.........1 to go (Browns) that has No bids....odd.

Last edited by Shoeless Moe; 01-05-2012 at 12:43 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2012, 01:18 PM
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Default Expensive bird-cage liners

If these aren't phony, I'll eat one. Alright, I'll be charitable and call them folk art, made about two weeks ago in commemoration of eBay.
Hank Thomas
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  #7  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
If these aren't phony, I'll eat one. Alright, I'll be charitable and call them folk art, made about two weeks ago in commemoration of eBay.
Hank Thomas
like
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
If these aren't phony, I'll eat one. Alright, I'll be charitable and call them folk art, made about two weeks ago in commemoration of eBay.
Hank Thomas
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  #9  
Old 01-05-2012, 07:18 PM
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Default I too question, but

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Originally Posted by Hankphenom View Post
If these aren't phony, I'll eat one. Alright, I'll be charitable and call them folk art, made about two weeks ago in commemoration of eBay.
Hank Thomas
They were won by 3 different buyers. Would 3 different buyers be duped into the $1000's. To spend that much on a pennant, I'd think u'd have to be fairly knowledgeable on the subject. Too odd that 3 wealthy novices noticed the auctions.

But since they all look alike I can't see them being made in 1920 and then again in 1927 and lookng the exact same, nothing is the exact same in 7 years. I can just look at my belly to notice that.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:12 PM
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FWIW, I believe they were real.

The graphics and styles were 100% consistent with other exemplars from the 1920s. I have seen about half a dozen pennants from this series... including the Brooklyn variation twice prior. All have sold for at least 4 figures. The 1919 Chisox Pennant of this style is the obvious "Kingpin" and realized $34,500 in Halper (Lot 543).

The materials (both felt and paint) were correct, and showed the expected aging/wear of pennants from this era. The grommets which secure the tassels were correct as well.

It does, perhaps seem somewhat unlikely that this style would span 8 years (1919 - 1927), but pennants from the 1920s are scarce, with not a lot of differing variations. For whatever reason, there are far more existing pennants from the Teens than from the 1920s.

Production seemed to pick up dramatically in the '30s and beyond. And for the record... all of those 1950s/60s "Stadium" variations spanned a much longer time period than the pennants in question here. As did a number of other styles.... especially the Yankees (Uncle Sam Head), Dodgers (Emmett Kelly Bum) and Indians (Big Nosed Chief Wahoo). Those three designs were produced for at least a 10 year span.

Just my 2 cents...
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:22 PM
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Also wanted to add that this selller does not concentrate on sports-related items or memorabilia. Most of what he was selling was misc. antique stuff from various estates. No other sports memorabilia, or anything sports-related. It's not like he was an "Acofind" or one of those other Ohio-based sellers with a track record of counterfeits.

Why would he go to the trouble/expense of making these rather unattractive and aesthetically unpleasing examples? Why pick a style that required the application of the grommets? It makes no sense, and there is no evidence to support this accusation. Especially when there are other identical exemplars from past auctions, offered via major auction houses.

Editing to note that the un-dated Browns example sold for $273. Here are links to the two that were not linked above...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-Brookly...item4cfcf20873

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920s-St-Lou...item5647b8caaf

Last edited by perezfan; 01-05-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:31 PM
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Final point, and then I'll shut up....

A beat-up version of this specific Dodgers Pennant can be found on Page 29 of Mike Egner's Pennant Price Guide (a great reference book for anyone interested in collecting vintage pennants).
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:45 AM
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Of course, anything's possible, maybe these are the real deal. I'm not the greatest expert on pennants--I'd like to hear what someone like Dave Bushing or Dan Knowl thinks about these. But I've always liked the old pennants, I collect them, have dealt hundreds of them, have seen thousands more over the years. I just don't like the way these look, that's all. They have a homemade appearance to my eyes, the aging and stressing seems too similar between them, also completely unlike the wear and tear I'm used to seeing on old pennants. I especially think the paint on all of them doesn't seem stressed enough, too bright and too fresh-looking, compared to the "aging" on the rest. And I'm not accusing anyone, this seller or anyone else. I'm just saying I don't think they were made contemporaneously with the events they commemorate, that's all. They could have been made at any time, by any one, and they have made their way through the hobby. That's my two cents, worth no more and no less than anyone else's.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:33 AM
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Thanks everybody. These pennants clearly fit the style seen most often in the old Browns and Cardinals pennants that you see every now and then. They share in common: tassels that are the same color as body of pennant, paint along the wide end as opposed to a seperate sewn-on strip of cloth, and city name written vertically along wide end. The more common STL pennants have the tassels sewn on; the '39 Browns and Cardinals tassels are attached by grommets like the ones we are discussing. In my opinion these are definitely very old - can't tell for certain without holding them but I'd be at about 98% sure. I agree with Mark in that if you're gonna reproduce a pennant, you'd go for a better looking one rather than one with a generic baseball design; and even if this was done some years ago, you sure don't see many of them around.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
Thanks everybody. These pennants clearly fit the style seen most often in the old Browns and Cardinals pennants that you see every now and then. They share in common: tassels that are the same color as body of pennant, paint along the wide end as opposed to a seperate sewn-on strip of cloth, and city name written vertically along wide end. The more common STL pennants have the tassels sewn on; the '39 Browns and Cardinals tassels are attached by grommets like the ones we are discussing. In my opinion these are definitely very old - can't tell for certain without holding them but I'd be at about 98% sure. I agree with Mark in that if you're gonna reproduce a pennant, you'd go for a better looking one rather than one with a generic baseball design; and even if this was done some years ago, you sure don't see many of them around.
So what's your guess as to when they were made and where they might have been sold? Do you think they were contemporaneous to the events and teams named? Do you know of two examples of the same pennant in this style?
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:23 PM
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Default 1915 Red Sox Pennant

Speaking of Pennants I just purchased this 1915 Boston Red Sox Pennant yesterday---cost a good penny but I really like it and a scarce one---thought I just show it to the pennant collections thanks, Don
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:16 PM
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Don:

That's a beauty! I have seen a few similar in style but never one exactly like yours. I am sure that many Sox fans here are drooling over that one...
Can you post the dimensions (of the pennant itself- not the frame?)

Congrats on a beautiful (and very unique) acquisition!
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:44 PM
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Default 1915 Red Sox Pennant

Thanks for the nice comment size is 34 1/2 long (not counting the tassles) by 11 inches high down to the tip---Don
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:14 AM
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FANTASTIC piece Don...that would be the pride of any collection. I love the simplicity and the rich thick felt.
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  #20  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:49 PM
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Don- Simply put, stunning. I love the way it is framed and matted. That piece would be the hallmark of any pennant collection. Heck, even a Yankeee fan would have to appreciate that one.
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  #21  
Old 01-16-2012, 06:02 PM
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Default another dodger pennant

any additional thoughts about authenticity. Another identical Dodger pennant available on ebay
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:45 PM
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Default Vintage Pennants

All of these pennants are absolutely authentic. As stated earlier, this is a common (somewhat) style and most likely produced by the same maker. Also previously stated, the 1919 White Sox is a beautiful pennant. I have not seen the 1927 Pirates nor the Browns, but both 1920 versions I have seen before. The buyers of these pennants got a great buy if you ask me as the three champion pennants as EXTREMELY rare and well worth the amount paid. I bid on all three, but was buying them for resale and was not surpised I did not win them.

On a side note, I find it ironic for all the auction and authenticator bashing that happens nowadays people have a hard time believing that authentic great sports memorabilia can still be found by common folk and sold on their own. Maybe the buyers will auction them in a large auction house, but I hope all three went to good homes and will stay for years to come.
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo View Post
All of these pennants are absolutely authentic. As stated earlier, this is a common (somewhat) style and most likely produced by the same maker. Also previously stated, the 1919 White Sox is a beautiful pennant. I have not seen the 1927 Pirates nor the Browns, but both 1920 versions I have seen before. The buyers of these pennants got a great buy if you ask me as the three champion pennants as EXTREMELY rare and well worth the amount paid. I bid on all three, but was buying them for resale and was not surpised I did not win them.

On a side note, I find it ironic for all the auction and authenticator bashing that happens nowadays people have a hard time believing that authentic great sports memorabilia can still be found by common folk and sold on their own. Maybe the buyers will auction them in a large auction house, but I hope all three went to good homes and will stay for years to come.
Mr Eskimo - well said.............................
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo View Post
All of these pennants are absolutely authentic. As stated earlier, this is a common (somewhat) style and most likely produced by the same maker. Also previously stated, the 1919 White Sox is a beautiful pennant. I have not seen the 1927 Pirates nor the Browns, but both 1920 versions I have seen before. The buyers of these pennants got a great buy if you ask me as the three champion pennants as EXTREMELY rare and well worth the amount paid. I bid on all three, but was buying them for resale and was not surpised I did not win them.

On a side note, I find it ironic for all the auction and authenticator bashing that happens nowadays people have a hard time believing that authentic great sports memorabilia can still be found by common folk and sold on their own. Maybe the buyers will auction them in a large auction house, but I hope all three went to good homes and will stay for years to come.
Well, then, get out your checkbooks, boys, here comes the exact same pennant again from the same seller, once again with a $249 minimum when it got five bids higher than that from different bidders the first time around, including two bids around $1,600. Maybe you don't think the pennants are fishy, but something's starting to smell around here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330670384973...84.m1423.l2649
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  #25  
Old 01-18-2012, 02:42 PM
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I had emailed the seller to asked if it was the same pennant and they said it was. They said the previous winner did not pay so it was being listed again. Mike
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:20 PM
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Mike,

The response you got was not quite accurate. I was actually the winner on the '20 Dodgers pennant (and an underbidder on the Indians pennant). I paid for it, received it two Saturdays ago, and immediately returned it for a refund (which could only be given if pennant not as described/pictured). I can prove this to anyone if need be. Pennant was not accurately pictured and some flaws were left out. Significant fade to the felt on the front, it is much lighter than the back which doesn't quite show up in the pictures. In the pictures the shade looks about the same on both sides but that isn't true. Pennant is also very thin in the upper left corner, especially around the Y and N in Brooklyn, hold it to the light and it is almost like Kleenex. There's also wear to the wide end edge by the top. The bottom tassel is partially disconnected from the grommet leaving a fairly large hole. Also the faded fibers were kinda loose and shedding off the front. It is authentic in my opinion and very old, maybe not back to 1920 but perhaps from a very old Hall of Fame series or something. Had I known these other flaws I likely would still bid on it but nowhere near what I actually did, not even close. I saw the re-posting and noticed that it is the same description with no revision. That's unfortunate.

Lastly, yes, I was the one who started this thread, I wanted to see peoples' objective thoughts and didn't want anyone to hold back so as to not want to break any bad news to me.

Last edited by thetahat; 01-18-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:51 PM
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Thanks for the information on it.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
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I had emailed the seller to asked if it was the same pennant and they said it was. They said the previous winner did not pay so it was being listed again. Mike
Why didn't the seller just offer the underbidder a second chance?
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:18 PM
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Why didn't the seller just offer the underbidder a second chance?
Perhaps he did, and it was declined. I almost always pass on the "second chance offers". It is a flaw in ebay's sytem. You should not have to pay your max bid, if the top bid is withdrawn. You should only pay the next increment above bidder #3. The second chance thing is generally a rip-off.

I bet that more than half of the "second chance offers" are actually declined.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:23 PM
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Bottom line... these pennants were 100% authentic and legit. But the various flaws were not properly disclosed (especially for such high-end pieces).

Could be one of three reasons...

1. The seller didn't know "squat" about vintage pennants (and what pennant collectors would look for in terms of condition).

2. Seller had an intent to deceive, and thus realize a higher price.

3. A combination of points 1 and 2. This is my guess.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:59 AM
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Mark, it was probably more #1 than #2. For example, the picture not accurately representing the fading was likely a matter of lighting when the pictures were taken. Also you can't see how thin/worn it is in the corner unless you hold it to the light; it is still whole but it is very fragile. I guess the troubling part was the re-posting with the exact same description - no mention of these additional flaws - and then replying to someone that the buyer never paid for the item. That's just a flat out untruth.

Greg
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Old 01-19-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Perhaps he did, and it was declined. I almost always pass on the "second chance offers". It is a flaw in ebay's sytem. You should not have to pay your max bid, if the top bid is withdrawn. You should only pay the next increment above bidder #3. The second chance thing is generally a rip-off.

I bet that more than half of the "second chance offers" are actually declined.
+1. I have never accepted the second chance offer for this very reason.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan View Post
Bottom line... these pennants were 100% authentic and legit.
Do you think these were issued by a commercial manufacturer at the time of the world series' named on the pennants? If so, what's the evidence for that?
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:43 PM
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So the original winner saved himself $1,200 the second time around on the same pennant. Can someone renege on his bid and then bid again when the item is relisted? I think not, so what's going on here? Actually, the seller would have done much better to offer a second chance to any of the four highest bidders the first time, all of whom bid at least $200 higher than the relisting closed for.
Everybody still think these pennants and their handling has been on the up and up? And I'm still waiting for the answers to my questions above.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=330670384973

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1920-Brookly...item4cfcf20873
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:59 PM
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These things never do as well the second time around. Especially when the second occurance happens right after the first. As to exact date that these were issued, we may never know. The style, materials, felt and printing are all commensurate with known examples of the 1920s era.

This Brooklyn pennant was exposed and returned for being in far worse condition than originally portrayed by the seller. I bid on it the first time around, but stayed far away the second time (after Greg described its real condition). I would take the word of a collector vs. an ebay seller any day. Especially a seller that doesn't specialize in sports collectibles. He either failed to disclose the flaws due to not knowing what collectors look for, or had an intent to deceive. Perhaps a little of both...

It looks like Greg got it again, but for a price commensurate with its actual condition. A decent buy, the second time around... even in rough shape. I'm pretty sure that Greg will come on here to confirm his thoughts/strategy.
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:03 PM
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There was no reneging here, the original buyer returned it due to condition issues. I had forgotten his post to that effect, and apologize for jumping to my conclusions and involving that buyer in my misimpressions. I still find much of the activity surrounding these pennants puzzling, and I am yet to be convinced they are truly vintage to the events depicted.
Hank Thomas
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:13 PM
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The bidder did not renege on the the first auction. It was paid for and just returned to the seller as not described properly as in the post earlier. I guess if the seller didn't offer a second chance offer to the under bidders and re-lists it than whatever happens happens. If they didn't block the original winner from bidding how can they stop them from winning again ? I would imagine the seller is probably not very happy but it was out there for everyone to bid on-- again. Although I have no evidence, I agree with Mark the they are authentic and not homemade. This particular 1920 Dodger one is not the the first to surface. Mike
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Old 01-23-2012, 08:14 PM
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Hi everybody ... yes, I can certainly prove that I bought it and returned it. I have proved it to another poster already, who has been kind enough to back me up. The seller only grants returns if item not as described, and she granted it right away, so that essentially backs me up.

The additional flaws were not devastating but it did significantly reduce its value ... not to a value of $0, but perhaps something in the neighborhood of $800-900 which is what one sold for awhile back in a Hunt Auction. It wasn't worth what I originally bid, due to condition flaws that were not described and pictures that were not representative. This is why I returned it. By the way, you can find this pennant in a Hunt Auction search. This pennant and that one have different flaws that probably balance out. Based on the description, this one should have been better, but it really isn't. (This one has perfect tip and original tassels but significantly more fading to the front and thinning of the body of the felt; doesn't display as nicely; graphic harder to see.) Still, all things considered, a decent pennant albeit not a holy grail, and so when I saw it posted again, obviously, I kept me eye on it. I found it interesting that the additional flaws were not mentioned. My max bid was less than half of what it was before. And I won.

I would restate my opinion that these are very old and unique pennants. Was this one printed immediately after the '20 season? Who knows. I did notice in Mike Egner's guide that there is a Senators pennant that is of the same type. It is a 1933-dated pennant (can't see it clearly in the book but it reminded me that I've seen it before) reading CHAMPIONS 1933 along the wide end. Absolutely convinced that the Browns/Cardinals pennants of the late 30s/early 40s are made from the same maker. I have these. No sewn-on strip at wide end, same metal grommets attaching tassels, and underneath the grommets are little clover designs. Maybe this is a very old commemorative series ... I could imagine that perhaps in 1939 something was done to commemorate 100 years. Just a wild guess.

Anyway, Hank, Mark, Mike ... thanks. I'll keep you posted.
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Old 01-23-2012, 11:06 PM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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Maybe I'm just hypersensitive these days to fraud and scams in the hobby, which drive me nuts, and thought I had found one where none existed. I love pennants, you all obviously do, too, so let's assume these are of some substantial vintage and therefore quite interesting, and enjoy them for whatever they are.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:03 AM
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Update ... bidder is clearly unhappy that pennant sold for much lower price, accusing me of partaking in some sort of scheme to cause it, and refuses to fulfill obligation to sell. All this despite her choice to (a) give refund (b) repost without changing description (c) no reserve and (d) not blocking me from bidding.
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:44 AM
Tigerden Tigerden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
Update ... bidder is clearly unhappy that pennant sold for much lower price, accusing me of partaking in some sort of scheme to cause it, and refuses to fulfill obligation to sell. All this despite her choice to (a) give refund (b) repost without changing description (c) no reserve and (d) not blocking me from bidding.
I assume you mean the seller is unhappy Greg. I hope everything works out for you, keep us posted. Adam
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:32 AM
Hankphenom Hankphenom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thetahat View Post
Update ... bidder is clearly unhappy that pennant sold for much lower price, accusing me of partaking in some sort of scheme to cause it, and refuses to fulfill obligation to sell. All this despite her choice to (a) give refund (b) repost without changing description (c) no reserve and (d) not blocking me from bidding.
Can a seller do that?
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:43 AM
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I didn't think they could. She accepted the return (which was justified and valid), and should be contractually obligated to complete the transaction.

If you really want it, I would think you can file a dispute with ebay. Greg... please keep us posted on this one, as it's an interesting case.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:23 AM
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I didn't think they could. She accepted the return (which was justified and valid), and should be contractually obligated to complete the transaction.

If you really want it, I would think you can file a dispute with ebay. Greg... please keep us posted on this one, as it's an interesting case.
Sorry Guys but I have had this happen to me before the seller doesnt have to complete the transaction. You can file with ebay but you will get a note from ebay saying they cannot force the seller to complete the transaction.All you can do is leave a negative comment and move on. I can almost garantee you the seller will have a reserve on this the next time around.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:28 AM
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Thanks Al, for clarifying.

So does it work the other way as well? If a bidder decides not to complete the transaction, does the seller have no recourse in collecting the monies owed?

I am curious if this works both ways, as I was always told there's a legal contract/obligation.

Last edited by perezfan; 01-24-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:45 AM
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Mark,
Sad fact is yes. The buyer doesnt have to complete the transaction either. A buyer after the auction is over can list a number of reasons on a form that ebay has and cancel the bid. It was for a time if the buyer did this more than 3 times ebay would close their account but in these economic times ebay doesnt seem to do that anymore. That is also why sometimes you see a second chance offer on an item. The buyer filled out the form right away and the seller gave the next bidder a chance to buy it. This also opens up a long conversation I once had with ebay about this. I.E. Seller has a shiller bid the item up, (lets say the item has alot of bids) His shiller ends up at the end winning the item but the bidder just under him also has put in a good high bid. Shiller cancels his bid and the next bidder wins it. Only chance you take is the under bidder doesnt take the second chance offer.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:03 PM
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Duluth Eskimo Duluth Eskimo is offline
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Greg, I was the underbidder and she did not offer it to me. I agree with you on price, but was still a little suprised it didn't get closer to that number given it's rarity despite other examples out there. Anyways, sorry to hear she will not give it to you for that price. Funny given she probably would have sold the entire group for $1000 and been happy with it before seeing the spirited bidding with the other two.
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Old 01-25-2012, 05:31 AM
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Duluth ... it unfortunately it doesn't surprise me that she didn't offer it to you. She clearly regrets the fact that it went low and she is using my prior return as an excuse not to sell it to anybody. She simply isn't a very nice person.
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