NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Watercooler Talk- ALL sports talk

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-15-2014, 10:54 AM
bigtrain bigtrain is offline
Tom
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cooperstown, NY
Posts: 1,168
Default Biggest Jerks in the HOF

Today is my brother's birthday and that always reminds me that it is the anniversary of the day in 1912 when Ty Cobb climbed into the stands to beat up a disabled heckler. The guy had lost one hand and part of the other in an industrial accident. So....my question is, excluding Cobb who is the biggest jerk in the HOF? It is tough to pick one, with so many drunks, womanizers and racists to choose from. Or...maybe just a guy who was obnoxious to you.
One of the biggest jerks I ever met personally, as far as being nasty to fans, was Johnny Bench but certainly he does not rise to the level of a Cap Anson or any of the others who did so much to make sure the game was segregated. Your thoughts?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-15-2014, 12:00 PM
brewing's Avatar
brewing brewing is offline
Brent
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 793
Default

Being unable to defend yourself does not give you the right to berate and/or insult people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Tiger collector

I blame Net54 for this endeavor
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-15-2014, 12:15 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 5,246
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewing View Post
Being unable to defend yourself does not give you the right to berate and/or insult people.
That's what I was thinking too.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-15-2014, 12:33 PM
bigtrain bigtrain is offline
Tom
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cooperstown, NY
Posts: 1,168
Default

So it was okay for Cobb to go into the stands to beat up a disabled heckler? Really?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-15-2014, 12:42 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

I don't think Cobb knew the guy was disabled until after it happened. Like you said someone had to tell him he had no hands. It seems like all he knew was someone was insulting him and he flew into a blind rage. I don't know that anyone can say for sure what was said.

Cobb in all his letters is sincere and kind to the fans who wrote him.

To combat his legacy as a racist, I would like to point out that he set up many scholarships for African Americans from Georgia at a time when few others did. He even named his housing development Booker T Washington Heights and frequently rented land and affordable housing to minorities in exchange for simple favors, like making sure no harm came to his property.

He would also routinely pay the hospital bills of Georgia residents.

Even today the scholarship fund he established has awarded more than 14 million dollars.

Last edited by packs; 05-15-2014 at 12:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-15-2014, 12:49 PM
bigtrain bigtrain is offline
Tom
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Cooperstown, NY
Posts: 1,168
Default

I believe that when spectators yelled for Cobb to stop beating the man because he had no hands, he is said to have replied "I don't care if he has no feet".
BTW I am in no way defending the heckler who was clearly a racist himself in that he was taunting Cobb by suggesting that his mother was half black.

Last edited by bigtrain; 05-15-2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: added
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-15-2014, 02:36 PM
brewing's Avatar
brewing brewing is offline
Brent
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Georgia
Posts: 793
Default

I get tired of the Cobb bashing and the incident of beating a handicap man is always brought up. He may have been an a$$hole and I believe he was a racist. I don't believe he had the market cornered on bad traits. Al Stump did a number on him and it perpetuates the ill will toward him.

Facts are we really don't know all his views or all the bad and good things he may have done. I would wager we know more about the good stuff Babe Ruth did and less about the bad stuff Ruth did.

I am not saying because other people were bad it excuses Cobb. What I am saying is for the vast majority of MLBers, we do not know the level of jerks they were or are.

Elvis once sang "walk a mile in my shoes".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Tiger collector

I blame Net54 for this endeavor
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-15-2014, 03:05 PM
6-4-3memorabilia's Avatar
6-4-3memorabilia 6-4-3memorabilia is offline
Anthony
member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 129
Default

I don't get mad at players unless they kill or beat up people. They are human and if they blow off some fans for autographs I don't think it is fair to judge them on that. I know I would get tired of it when people are always bothering me asking for autographs or taking pictures esp if I am living my private life. I feel a little bad for players today, they cant be normal out in public. I used to work for Party City and Michael Strahan came in to buy stuff for his kids party. This was in 2009, I knew it was him off the bat and helped him like a normal customer although I did call him Mr. Strahan. After I helped him he thanked me for not making a big deal about him being there. He even tried to give me a $20 tip which I refused to take. I think fans try to pry into players private lives way too much today. As for jerks being in the HOF I am sure there are as many jerks in it just as you see jerks in your daily lives.
__________________
1971 Topps Baseball Set: Complete
1965 Topps Set: 240/598 40.13% Complete
1972 Topps Set 136/787 17.28% Complete
2013 Topps Autograph Set: 84/660 12.72% Complete
2014 Topps Heritage W/SP's: 393/500 78.6% Complete
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-15-2014, 03:14 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 7,454
Default

I'm gonna go with Lawrence Taylor [until Ray Lewis is elected]:

In 2009, Taylor started having troubles in his personal life again. On November 8, he was arrested in Miami-Dade County, Florida for leaving the scene of an accident after striking another vehicle with his Cadillac Escalade. He had already committed the same offense in 1996 when he totaled his Lexus in a one-car accident and left the scene, saying he did not think the law required the reporting of a single driver incident. He was released on a $500 bond, and the other driver later sued him, seeking $15,000. He was arrested six months later for having sex with a 16-year-old girl. He was charged with felony third-degree statutory rape, for allegedly engaging in sexual intercourse with someone under 17. He was also charged with third-degree patronization for allegedly paying the underage girl $300 to have sex with him. Taylor pled guilty and on March 22, 2011 was sentenced to six years probation as part of a plea agreement, in which he pled guilty to the misdemeanors of sexual misconduct and patronizing a prostitute. He will also have to register as a low-risk level one sex offender.
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
Judge a man by how he treats someone who can do nothing for him--Nick Charles
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.

Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-15-2014 at 03:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-15-2014, 03:28 PM
vintagetoppsguy vintagetoppsguy is offline
D@v!d J@m3s
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Richmond, TX
Posts: 5,246
Default

From personal experiences:

Baseball: Joe DiMaggio
Football: Tony Dorsett
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-15-2014, 04:05 PM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,130
Default

If we are talking about criminal activity, it doesn't get much worse than OJ Simpson.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2014, 04:09 PM
Duluth Eskimo's Avatar
Duluth Eskimo Duluth Eskimo is offline
Ja.son Hugh.es
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,667
Default

As far as a jerk goes, cast my vote for Say Hey Willie Mays. I have met and spent time with many HOFers, but no one was worse than Mays.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-15-2014, 04:11 PM
Duluth Eskimo's Avatar
Duluth Eskimo Duluth Eskimo is offline
Ja.son Hugh.es
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,667
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
If we are talking about criminal activity, it doesn't get much worse than OJ Simpson.
I thought the "glove didn't fit"?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-19-2014, 10:21 AM
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards's Avatar
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards I Only Smoke 4 the Cards is offline
Alex
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,093
Default

Derek Jeter - I asked him for an autograph in NYC (as an 11yo) and he told me that I didn't have enough money.
__________________
Tackling the Monster
T206 = 213/524
HOFs = 13/76
SLers = 33/48
Horizontals = 6/6

ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-19-2014, 08:47 PM
mets41 mets41 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 176
Default

Back in the mid-80's to early 90's I was going thru the card show circuit getting a 1969 Met team picture autographed by all pictured team members (at the time everyone was still living except manager Gil Hodges). Also I wanted to get all notables from the Brave and Oriole teams the Mets beat in the post season. When I got Frank Robinson to sign, once he saw the picture, I got a look that could kill. At a later show, when I got Art Shamsky to sign, he was saying that he hit his 1st major league homer as a pinch hitter for Robinson. The previous inning while the Reds were in the field Robinson injured his arm but remained in the game until the teams changed sides, then went into the trainer's room and was done for the game.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-19-2014, 10:53 PM
ooo-ribay's Avatar
ooo-ribay ooo-ribay is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Salt Lake
Posts: 2,591
Default

I'm hoping my favorite jerk, Barry Bonds, gets in....he deserves it, steroids and all....an incredible talent.
__________________
if you can help with SF Giants items (no cards), let me send you my wantlist!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-20-2014, 08:34 AM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
Х r
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
I'm hoping my favorite jerk, Barry Bonds, gets in....he deserves it, steroids and all....an incredible talent.
Agreed. He may be a jerk, but he would be in good company.
__________________
::::CENSORED::::
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-20-2014, 10:55 AM
Jayworld's Avatar
Jayworld Jayworld is offline
Jay Shelton
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 703
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo View Post
As far as a jerk goes, cast my vote for Say Hey Willie Mays. I have met and spent time with many HOFers, but no one was worse than Mays.
+1. I've met him, too. At an Equitable Old Timers game in the 1980s. He was the ONLY old time player that did not attend the pre-game meet/greet at the hotel, and the only one before the game that would not acknowledge anyone at the batting cages. I was told by my friend who was an Equitable rep that Mays would not be invited back.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-26-2014, 09:17 AM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,130
Default

Juan Marichal, anyone who hits another player in the head with a bat is not only a jerk but a coward too.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-26-2014, 04:37 PM
celoknob's Avatar
celoknob celoknob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 409
Default

Cap Anson
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-27-2014, 05:53 PM
Section103's Avatar
Section103 Section103 is offline
Rich v@n He$$
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denver-ish
Posts: 632
Default

Enos Slaughter. Wrong side of history.

The death of Babe Ruth's wife, Helen Woodford, always makes me raise my eyebrows just a tad. Nothing to support that, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-27-2014, 07:14 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 7,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
If we are talking about criminal activity, it doesn't get much worse than OJ Simpson.
Heh, I forgot all about The Juice. How much of an idiot do you have to be to get the verdict of a lifetime on a murder rap then go off and try to strongarm someone? He deserves a long prison sentence for being felony stupid.
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
Judge a man by how he treats someone who can do nothing for him--Nick Charles
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.

Last edited by Exhibitman; 05-27-2014 at 07:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-01-2014, 10:37 AM
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards's Avatar
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards I Only Smoke 4 the Cards is offline
Alex
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ooo-ribay View Post
I'm hoping my favorite jerk, Barry Bonds, gets in....he deserves it, steroids and all....an incredible talent.
I agree. It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Nice Guys. People have found ways to cheat for years, I don't like it but it's part of the game.
__________________
Tackling the Monster
T206 = 213/524
HOFs = 13/76
SLers = 33/48
Horizontals = 6/6

ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-05-2014, 11:34 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

Not in the same way he did it. The guy was motivated by jealousy and insecurity. He should never be elected to the HOF. His legacy is manufactured.

Last edited by packs; 06-05-2014 at 08:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-06-2014, 12:55 PM
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards's Avatar
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards I Only Smoke 4 the Cards is offline
Alex
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Not in the same way he did it. The guy was motivated by jealousy and insecurity. He should never be elected to the HOF. His legacy is manufactured.
It is interesting to hear your point of view. I know a number of people who hold it against Bonds that he was a great player without the PEDs. Personally, I view all PED users the same. They are cheats - but it was part of the game back then.
__________________
Tackling the Monster
T206 = 213/524
HOFs = 13/76
SLers = 33/48
Horizontals = 6/6

ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-06-2014, 09:51 PM
ezez420 ezez420 is offline
Ed
Ed DeS.erio
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,215
Default

Reggie Jackson


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-07-2014, 02:37 PM
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards's Avatar
I Only Smoke 4 the Cards I Only Smoke 4 the Cards is offline
Alex
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezez420 View Post
Reggie Jackson


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I met him when I was in high school during spring training and he was a nice guy. I walked over to Yankees minor league facility and he was there working with prospects. He signed a ball on the sweet spot and posed for a photo.
__________________
Tackling the Monster
T206 = 213/524
HOFs = 13/76
SLers = 33/48
Horizontals = 6/6

ALWAYS looking for T206 with back damage.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-09-2014, 01:24 PM
djson1 djson1 is offline
J@son.K
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: California
Posts: 415
Default

The athletic world (not just the HoF) is FULL of jerks, racists, haters, etc. You have to guess that these guys are so Type A and just look out for #1, that they don't care a lick about anybody else. Truly nice guys are rare, but there are some great nice ones too (too many to list).

I'm still hoping that all those rumors of great baseball players like Speaker and Hornsby (maybe even Cronin) being associated with the KKK are not true (that would make them real big jerks!). Many of these are based on rumors, according to my research, but some are convinced that they did have ties. That would be disappointing as I admire Tris Speaker and Hornsby as the best of the best. BTW, wasn't Enos Slaughter a big racist jerk? Plus, his numbers weren't even that great.

Last edited by djson1; 06-10-2014 at 08:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-09-2014, 01:30 PM
djson1 djson1 is offline
J@son.K
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: California
Posts: 415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ezez420 View Post
Reggie Jackson


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I think Reggie's intentions to be "good" are there. But I have to agree with you on a personal basis as the one time I saw him after an Angels game, I saw him yelling at little 7 year old kids for coming too close to one of his classic cars. Jim Rice was on the passenger side and not signing, but Reggie was churning out the signatures (really messy "RJxx"s only though) and yelling at the kids. Sure, he was yelling at little kids and I thought he was the biggest jerk ever at the time (I decided not to ask for his autograph), but at least he made time to sign. There was one dad who stuck out his hand to congratulate him on his homerun that day and Reggie snaps at him "Don't stick that thing in front of my face! Can't you see I'm signing autographs?!" But again...at least he was signing. haha
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-17-2014, 10:40 AM
veleno45 veleno45 is offline
Chris P.
member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 124
Default

From personal experience:

3rd place...Football-Bobby Mitchell, what an arrogant jerk
2nd place...Rickey Henderson, what can I say...just wow.
And my champ...Oscar Robertson, by far.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-17-2014, 06:00 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 7,454
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by djson1 View Post
The athletic world (not just the HoF) is FULL of jerks, racists, haters, etc. You have to guess that these guys are so Type A and just look out for #1, that they don't care a lick about anybody else. Truly nice guys are rare, but there are some great nice ones too (too many to list).

I'm still hoping that all those rumors of great baseball players like Speaker and Hornsby (maybe even Cronin) being associated with the KKK are not true (that would make them real big jerks!). Many of these are based on rumors, according to my research, but some are convinced that they did have ties. That would be disappointing as I admire Tris Speaker and Hornsby as the best of the best. BTW, wasn't Enos Slaughter a big racist jerk? Plus, his numbers weren't even that great.
As I understood the KKK stuff, there were some parts of the country where membership was extremely widespread and considered almost respectable among the general population of whites. At least one Supreme Court justice [Hugo Black] was a KKK member in the 1920s, joining because he felt he needed the KKK vote to win elective office in Alabama. His record on the bench and as an employer of law clerks did not jibe with a racist viewpoint.

As for Slaughter, there was a highly publicized incident [as shown in 42] when he spiked Jackie Robinson but he [Slaughter] always denied it was racial and in his 'defense' it is true that he injured numerous white ballplayers with his spikes and was widely known as one of the dirtiest players in the game, so whether he was being his normal self or a racist is by no means clear.

As a guest a card shows I always experienced him as one of the good ones, happy to be there, willing to chat and accommodate fans, etc. I got this one at a show about 20 years ago:

__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
Judge a man by how he treats someone who can do nothing for him--Nick Charles
10% off any BIN in my eBay store (user name: exhibitman) for N54 members buying direct from me through this site instead, just PM me.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-18-2014, 04:22 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

In my opinion accepted or not there have been pro-racial equality sentiments in sports just as long as there have been anti-racial equality sentiments. Everyone had a choice.

Personally I don't believe Slaughter had racist motives and he's always denied it. But I think excusing someone's actions because of their background or because of the general population's views minimizes the act.

Last edited by packs; 06-18-2014 at 04:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-18-2014, 05:10 PM
ooo-ribay's Avatar
ooo-ribay ooo-ribay is offline
Rob
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Salt Lake
Posts: 2,591
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Not in the same way he did it. The guy was motivated by jealousy and insecurity. He should never be elected to the HOF. His legacy is manufactured.
Other PED users will get in or may already be in. The difference is that they didn't have a Federal Agent with a hard-on for them and/or a newspaper bankrolling a couple of investigative reporters for years. I've heard it estimated the Feds spent $50M going after Bonds. Bud Selig allowed Bonds' legacy to develop as it did.
__________________
if you can help with SF Giants items (no cards), let me send you my wantlist!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-19-2014, 08:04 AM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
Х r
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
Not in the same way he did it. The guy was motivated by jealousy and insecurity. He should never be elected to the HOF. His legacy is manufactured.
So because Bonds modified his body instead of the baseball like Gaylord Perry, Bonds is worse?

Edited to add: I am not saying cheating is ok, but to call what Bonds (and McGwire, Canseco, Sosa... and probably 50% of players through the 90s) worse is ridiculous.
__________________
::::CENSORED::::

Last edited by bn2cardz; 06-19-2014 at 08:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-19-2014, 08:42 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.

Last edited by packs; 06-19-2014 at 08:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-19-2014, 09:46 AM
bn2cardz's Avatar
bn2cardz bn2cardz is offline
Х r
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.
...you doubt it based on what? Also how is it worse than Mickey Mantle's use of steroids?
__________________
::::CENSORED::::
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-19-2014, 10:34 AM
Jim65's Avatar
Jim65 Jim65 is offline
Jam.es Braci.liano
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
The motivation is worse and that is what makes Bonds (and players like him) different in my opinion. Same goes for Roger Clemens. They weren't motivated by trying to win (like Perry). They cheated to obtain stats that they never would have reached otherwise. Whether that be to make more money or manufacture a legacy, it doesn't matter. Gaylord Perry throwing spit balls was about giving his team a chance to win the game. I highly doubt he was out there throwing spitters thinking he had to make it to 300 wins.
So, cheating is ok as long as you do it for the team?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-19-2014, 11:41 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.

Last edited by packs; 06-19-2014 at 12:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-22-2014, 04:38 AM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.
Curious how you're able to speak for the motivations of all these people? And whether accurate or not, what makes Bonds' supposed "jeolousy as motivation" so much worse than someone juicing to maintain a spot on the roster (see Armando Rios, FP Santangelo)? Many fringe MLB players who juiced were keeping other potentially worthy players off of big league rosters... and by result keeping big league checks out of their family's bank accounts. SI did a great article a couple years back, written by a guy who was passed over year after year by guys that were inexplicably gaining 10+ MPH on their fastballs.

Other guys who were better than marginal and juiced (Ken Caminiti, Bret Boone, B Giles types) made a hell of a lot of money doing so. Assuming they weren't considering career longevity, or increasing earning potentional, or the ever evil jealousy, and instead all juiced for "team", would it be acceptable?

I'm not in a position to gauge each individuals' motivation for juicing, and get tired of fans and many in media who continually jump to conclusions. I think some things in baseball and pro sports are pretty basic though. Perform well and make a roster. Perform better, get paid and team wins more games (personal and team goals are not by rule mutually exclusive). Perform even better, perhaps be considered for Hall of Fame. Lots of room motivations/personal agenda, and players of all eras have looked for an edge to perform better.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:05 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

I didn't excuse anyone and hold all accountable. I just personally think players like Bonds and Clemens (and players like them, not just them) cheated in a different way than someone who is spitting on a baseball. That's all I'm saying. Whatever you're adding to my argument is not coming from me.

As for assuming motivations. I don't claim to be inside of their heads. But I understand the world.

Last edited by packs; 06-23-2014 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 06-23-2014, 03:18 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
But I understand the world.
Understand the World as Mark Fenara-Wada wrote and Pedro Gomez reported it?

It's clear you separate these guys, particularly Bonds as being motivated by jealousy and insecurity (credit Mark FW for shaping opinions there) rather than simply cheating to win.. and for some reason that's far worse and excludes him from Hall consideration, while other cheaters get a pass.

My comment and understanding of the world is that people generally want to do well... particluarly competitive athletes. Not assuming I know their minds, but do think it is naive to make the opposite assumption that Gaylord Perry is only cheating to better his team and his not taking his own perfomance on the mound into consideration.

I guess if you're not 700+ HR or 7 Cy Young Award good, you must only be cheating to win. Keeping a job or increasing your earnings doesn't factor at all, right?

As a Giants fan who probably saw 50+ Bonds HRs in person and loved every one, I don't particularly like that he holds the HR record. However, I also don't like seeing how he and Clemens given such a higher level of scrutiny than the rest. They seem to take the brunt for the whole era, which is nuts because IMO "the era" is far from over and many many players are still probably juicing.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-23-2014, 03:55 PM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

What do you mean by giving a pass? I said all cheating is bad.

Bonds and Clemens weren't trying to earn a roster spot. So again, I do think that makes their motivations distinctly different from a fringe player.

It was about the legacy. And that's why I see them as insecure.

I don't mean to make light of Perry's method. But I don't think he was trying to break anyone's record when he spit on those baseballs. But I do think Bonds was trying to break someone's record when he juiced. And I do think Clemens wanted to be seen as the greatest pitcher of all time when he juiced.

Last edited by packs; 06-23-2014 at 04:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-23-2014, 05:09 PM
itjclarke's Avatar
itjclarke itjclarke is offline
I@n Cl@rke
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,825
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by packs View Post
What do you mean by giving a pass? I said all cheating is bad.

Bonds and Clemens weren't trying to earn a roster spot. So again, I do think that makes their motivations distinctly different from a fringe player.
.
OK, "giving a pass" may be too strong, but I don't see why Bonds' and Clemens' motivations were worse than others'. The fact they weren't fringe players can actually be argued as being less impactful to the dozens, maybe hundreds of other guys who couldn't hold a big league job due to people juicing. The fact that Bonds and Clemens would've been on the rosters at least means they didn't take someone else's job.

I'm not a Bonds/Clemens apologist, but I do think all who juiced did wrong.. and I'd guess most did it for personal gain, whether driven by jealousy or want for records, or just want for better stats and a secure job.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-30-2014, 07:46 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 5,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayworld View Post
+1. I've met him, too. At an Equitable Old Timers game in the 1980s. He was the ONLY old time player that did not attend the pre-game meet/greet at the hotel, and the only one before the game that would not acknowledge anyone at the batting cages. I was told by my friend who was an Equitable rep that Mays would not be invited back.
I think you guys could give Willie a little slack as he has been mostly deaf for more than a decade. Even without that, growing old aint for sissies - so, for all the thrills he gave all of us...a little slack in leu of gratitude.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-13-2014, 08:51 PM
Donscards Donscards is online now
Don Hontz
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 1,313
Default

I went to a show in the early 80's Willie could hear then---Very degrading person--he was being paid to sign and he wouldnt look up or chat--just grunt or yell---one of the worst in the Hall----I guess we can give Pete Rose a pass!!
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-13-2014, 09:09 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 5,252
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donscards View Post
I went to a show in the early 80's Willie could hear then---Very degrading person--he was being paid to sign and he wouldnt look up or chat--just grunt or yell---one of the worst in the Hall----I guess we can give Pete Rose a pass!!

I think we all should be more realistic. Willie never stood on the shoulders of others...they were HIS shoulders...and everyone you see on color TV these days stands on his shoulders...and Hank's & and Ernie's and of course Jackie's. Willie never made a million...not even close. Our sports 'heroes' are just like anyone else, entitled to having a bad day. Walk a mile in their shoes and try to understand.

Last edited by clydepepper; 07-13-2014 at 09:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-13-2014, 09:18 PM
jb67 jb67 is offline
D@v!d W@tk!n$
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
I think we all should be more realistic. Willie never stood on the shoulders of others...they were HIS shoulders...and everyone you see on color TV these days stands on his shoulders...and Hank's & and Ernie's and of course Jackie's. Willie never made a million...not even close. Our sports 'heroes' are just like anyone else, entitled to having a bad day. Walk a mile in their shoes and try to understand.
100% agree!
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-14-2014, 04:53 AM
Donscards Donscards is online now
Don Hontz
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 1,313
Default

Guys we are talking about jerks here---If you ever met Willie, you would know what I am saying---His personality is nasty, he is mean to most fans---now if we are talking about a baseball player, I always say he was one of the greatest ever--a true 5 tool player---but if we are talking about people, it is a different story for sure. He is not a happy man.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-14-2014, 08:21 AM
packs packs is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 5,498
Default

Just for perspective, in 1973 Willie Mays is listed by Baseball Reference as having made $165,000. That doesn't sound like a lot until you consider that according to the Social Security Administration the average national wage in 1973 was $7,580. Not bad money.

Last edited by packs; 07-14-2014 at 09:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-14-2014, 02:58 PM
RichardSimon's Avatar
RichardSimon RichardSimon is offline
Richard Simon
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New York City
Posts: 5,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim65 View Post
Juan Marichal, anyone who hits another player in the head with a bat is not only a jerk but a coward too.
But Roseboro forgave him and they became good friends.
__________________
Sign up & receive my autograph price list. E mail me,richsprt@aol.com, with your e mail. Sports,entertainment,history.
-
Here is a link to my online store. Many items for sale. 10% disc. for 54 members. E mail me first.
www.bonanza.com/booths/richsports
--
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."- Clarence Darrow
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My biggest sub familytoad Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 9 02-22-2013 06:54 PM
Who is the biggest culprit? mintacular Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 64 01-23-2012 12:06 PM
My biggest regret......... YankeeCollector Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 12 10-12-2011 07:08 PM
The biggest one you let get away? Archive Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used 16 03-09-2008 08:26 PM
How about an all-time jerks lineup? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 32 06-30-2005 10:33 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 AM.


ebay GSB