Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Sorry, did you just take the name from Goudey77s post? Maybe it was him. I know he was mentioned earlier.

I think Chuck and I had a brief exchange about him.

[barrysloate]

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

You know the answer to that Barry.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Why would Topps make a card of Benedict Arnold?

It betrays a certain callousness, eh?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully, that will change.

More than likely it's a registry-driven purchase, I would think.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

There are certainly Net54 consignors to PWCC.

Can any of them come forward and verify that one of their consignments, that they truly believe is unaltered and unconserved, received a sticker from Brent?

Or are the stickers reserved for the select, elite (?) consignors?

I am not an elite consignor as far as I'm aware. I had a card receive a certified high end designation under the old system that I never altered and showed no obvious signs of alteration or conservation.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's a current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agreed, and think about this for a moment. The card was graded an 8 and someone paid fifty bucks for it. No problem there.

Then a card doctor ruins it by slicing off the left border, PSA misses it entirely, if anything it looks worse after defacement, and now the value increases sixty-fold. Does everyone recognize how effing ridiculous this is?

Yeah, you're absolutely right...

"Emperor's Clothes" was too mild. "Mindless Sheep" is more in-line with that insane valuation.

Whether it's the Registry, competitive greed, or just plain stupidity, PT Barnum would be beaming!

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nope.

Welcome to the Registry, son.

I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.

[vintagetoppsguy]

A lot of people (especially the old timers) say that grading has hurt the hobby. As much as I hate grading, I disagree with that. But I do think the Registry has hurt the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I knew you were going to say that. I know it's the registry, but it's still dumb. Fact is, the card looks really ugly and if I were grading the truncated version I would never give it a 9. What a crock.

It's ... wait for it .... pretty obviously short. You don't really need to measure it I don't think, the unconscious mind rejects it automatically, the Malcolm Gladwell "Blink" thing.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I can't believe that someone would actually pay 3k for a Look n See card of Benedict Arnold. Why?

Uh, because someone in 2019 would pay 3k?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

How could he not attend?

[Rhotchkiss]

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How could he not attend?

I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.

[judsonhamlin]

There are a couple of questions that I don't think have been answered (and they may not be without subpoenas or warrants)-

-what percentage of submission by the 'doctors' are getting through? Given the profit margins, I would imagine there is an acceptable level of loss (cards rejected by PSA). The answer would, to me, be the distinction between buffoonery/incompetence and outright collusion.
-are these cards being reviewed by the same grader(s) and supervisors? Again, the difference between incompetence and collusion, either with or without the knowledge of corporate officials.
-how were these cards submitted? In person/mail? And what kind of follow-up communication took place about those submissions?

Just some thoughts

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy.
https://www.facebook.com/pristinecards/

I don't have an account but here is one of the comments reproduced on Blowout.

Pristine Card Cleaners
We get higher grades on cards all the time. The ONE thing we can not control is centering so 9 or 8.5 centered cards are tough. We have been able to get a gem on 9 centered cards because the surface, edges and corners have to be on point. The vintage cards are tougher because of the paper they used then and the overall age of the card. Can we improve them....yes but it is not taking a 1920 tobacco card from a 2 to a 6. The newer cards are usually littered with printing issues to the edges, surface and sometimes corners. These cards SHOULD be pristine but through the manufacturing process they are not. That's why you see photos of those because it is the largest portion of the speculator market and grades really impact the value of the cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?

Pretty sure we can get there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His emails, texts, etc. might be ... uh ... interesting.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Pretty sure we can get there.

Maybe, I was just looking to see what Ryan had in mind, is it PWCC, TPGs, Gary, etc.

[MULLINS5]

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe, I was just looking to see what Ryan had in mind, is it PWCC, TPGs, Gary, etc.

Just PWCC.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

AHs do it all the time for consignors. I don't have a problem with it if the cards are not doctored and the consignors are not card doctors. Isn't that the real problem?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Just PWCC.

The more narrowly focused, the better then.

[calvindog]

Why make it more complicated than it has to be? Go after the head of the snake.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks for the reply guys. I have deleted this last post, but happy to talk offline - PM me.

Ryan

[frankbmd]

Pristine Card Cleaners appears to operate out of Athens, GA according to the Facebook entries.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Hopefully one could come up with a wider class than just limited to specific identified cards, the money is always in a large class. As long as you're not talking a crusade against BGS/PSA which was my initial concern about your post, and are focused on a specific defendant where it looks like some good evidence has been outed already, that's a better suit to consider.

[Republicaninmass]

Brent better conserve his Asset, he could get altered in the can.

Pre
War
Card
Cutter/cleaner

[steve B]

Could the argument be made that we have all been harmed in one way or another?
The people with the money and inclination have bought things that were altered to be something they aren't, and have paid very high prices to do that.
That in turn had raised the prices of lower condition cards, sometimes to the point that collectors on lower budgets can't afford them at all. Not because the cards have increased in value naturally, but because the overall price has been inflated by the false grades.

I suppose the opposite argument could be made, that a great many of us have benefited from the false high prices, being able to sell our cards for more. That doesn't work for me, mostly because I seldom sell anything, but to me it seems that many collectors regularly turn stuff to follow other interests in the hobby.

[Kenny Cole]

I presume the class would be filed in Oregon, correct? Would it just be for in-state collectors or would it be a nationwide class with CAFA implications? I don't know anything about the federal district judges in Oregon, but here certifying a national class, particularly of fraud victims, would be pretty difficult IMO.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hopefully one could come up with a wider class than just limited to specific identified cards, the money is always in a large class. As long as you're not talking a crusade against BGS/PSA which was my initial concern about your post, and are focused on a specific defendant where it looks like some good evidence has been outed already, that's a better suit to consider.

Assuming you got as far as discovery, and that there was information that confirmed the conspiracy theories, would you then pursue PSA and/or BGS as well?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I presume the class would be filed in Oregon, correct? Would it just be for in-state collectors or would it be a nationwide class with CAFA implications? I don't know anything about the federal district judges in Oregon, but here certifying a national class, particularly of fraud victims, would be pretty difficult IMO.

I've thought about it for all of five minutes. But I've certainly LOST motions to limit classes to a particular state.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Assuming you got as far as discovery, and that there was information that confirmed the conspiracy theories, would you then pursue PSA and/or BGS as well?

I have no clue at this point, at this point I'm just responding to a post on a message board.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no clue at this point, at this point I'm just responding to a post on a message board.

Fair enough, just a hypothetical that was probably too broad.

Ruining a card doctor and or someone aiding that would be a start, but if a grading company was knowingly letting stuff by, I'd hope they would be dealt with too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Fair enough, just a hypothetical that was probably too broad.

Ruining a card doctor and or someone aiding that would be a start, but if a grading company was knowingly letting stuff by, I'd hope they would be dealt with too.

I would hope that they find a way to deal with it themselves, in the first place. But we'll see.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

i would hope that they find a way to deal with it themselves, in the first place. But we'll see.

lol!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.

Yeah I mean just look at some of the people here who seem, what's the word, unmoved (?) by all that's been revealed and continues to be revealed.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Why make it more complicated than it has to be? Go after the head of the snake.

"What are you gonna do, LaChance? Shoot us all?

No, Ace. Just you."

[drcy]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

I know someone who, when he took a job in the price guide division at Beckett, was told he not buy and sell while he was working for them.

An auction house sending in cards for consigners to get graded is fine. Some consigners aren't experts or even collectors (grandpa's collection), and the AH does what it best for them. I've had non collectors who have stumbled upon something valuable, and I've recommended they consign it to one of the good auction houses and let the AH handle it all for them. In these and other cases, there's nothing unethical or problematic with the AH getting the cards graded or autographs authenticated for them-- part of the servce.

An AH submitting cards for someone they know been banned by the grading company from submitting for altering cards is obviously an issue, and, at the very least, the AH takes partial responsibility for any altered cards that have been submitted. If the AH is submitting cards for someone who has been banned (and the AH knows has been banned) from submitting, I don't now why (beyond the obvious $$ considerations, which, of course, is a big beyond in this hobby) the grading company wouldn't also ban the AH from submitting.

[JRO$!(]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Because these people would buy a loose turd, if it were properly slabbed and assigned an ultra-high numeric grade. This type of collector needs the validation of a 3rd party, and has little ability to think for themselves. And conveniently enough, there's an easy way to turn a profit at their expense.

It's the current-day example of "The Emperor's Clothes". Hopefully with time, that will change.

https://nationalpurebreddogday.com/t...mbino-and-dot/

I swear I was thinking that in 1923 Babe Ruth's dog Dot was seen evacuating in

the park and the leavings were collected and saved all these years, they

would grade/authenticate and encapsulate and make quite a profit

Scary but very possible...