Should for sale listings be allowed in the b/s/t without prices

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Filthy

... in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.





.

That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

I did see you shill bidding your own auction in the BST area. This is meant to be funny and not taken serious.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

I think we have all agreed in these discussions, that it would be "open to interpretation" as to what your true intentions were. And it would be unfair to cast judgment upon you, nor would it be fair to paint the picture that you are one in the same.

But at the most basic level, it is still a lack of transparency. And in any other arena of commerce, in the buying, selling, or trading of any type of goods, lack of transparency when presenting something for sale, is seen as being dishonest.

[bobbyw8469]

That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

Consider the source.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

That's one of the nuttiest statements I have ever read on this board.

Do you have any intelligent input, as to how you see it differently? As in I'm open to differing opinion, however over the past few days...those who also seem to be in agreement to your side of this "conversation/argument/discussion" have also just popped in with quick/hateful one liners without much other productive thoughts/opinions, as to why.

.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Filthy

Do you have any intelligent input, as to how you see it differently?

Card doctoring, shill bidding, and selling fakes or reprints as originals are all examples of fraud. A guy taking bids on a card is not.

[bnorth]

The one thing this poll did show is you can list your item(s) how ever you want but you WILL get a MUCH larger group of potential buyers with prices listed.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Card doctoring, shill bidding, and selling fakes or reprints as originals are all examples of fraud. A guy taking bids on a card is not.

I don't disagree with you on that. You and Leon both took the broad stroke of my comment, and ran with it. I do think, that there is a significant difference of severity between the two. Much like, while driving, I have run a red light before...and I have driven over the speed limit...ALOT. I'm not a murderer nor a rapist, nor have I ever robbed a store at gunpoint...but at the end of the day those silly traffic offenses that no one really cares about, at the "most basic level" are still technically just as much against the law, as those more serious offenses. <--- Please don't run with this now, and interpret that I am saying that not posting a price is the same as breaking the law.



http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220632


I have posted the original thread above, of you wanted to bore yourselves with the details, but the original discussion was genuinely wanting to know what legitimate reasons were for someone posting something for sale...yet deliberately not publishing a price. Nothing more.....Nothing less. Yet it has turned into a poll, and a somewhat combative conversation.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The one thing this poll did show is you can list your item(s) how ever you want but you WILL get a MUCH larger group of potential buyers with prices listed.

I was hoping not to have to point out the current poll results, as its painfully obvious. However, the same holds true for any commerce of any goods in any type of market.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Filthy

I don't disagree with you on that. You and Leon both took the broad stroke of my comment, and ran with it. I do think, that there is a significant difference of severity between the two. Much like, while driving, I have run a red light before...and I have driven over the speed limit...ALOT. I'm not a murderer nor a rapist, nor have I ever robbed a store at gunpoint...but at the end of the day those silly traffic offenses that no one really cares about, at the "most basic level" are still technically just as much against the law, as those more serious offenses. <--- Please don't run with this now, and interpret that I am saying that not posting a price is the same as breaking the law.







http://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=220632





I have posted the original thread above, of you wanted to bore yourselves with the details, but the original discussion was genuinely wanting to know what legitimate reasons were for someone posting something for sale...yet deliberately not publishing a price. Nothing more.....Nothing less. Yet it has turned into a poll, and a somewhat combative conversation.

I had already read the original thread, but thanks for another condescending reply.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I had already read the original thread, but thanks for another condescending reply.

I apologize, as I did not mean to come across as condescending.

[CMIZ5290]

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

I am not Jesse but will try to tackle that question. Maybe it will convince some of the sellers that they really are losing customers by not including a price. The poll #'s don't lie. So to me that is helping the board.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Filthy

I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

I thought, based on the discussion, that it would make for an interesting poll question. I have made my opinion clear, but I certainly wouldn't compare those who lists cards without prices to those committing fraud in our hobby.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am not Jesse but will try to tackle that question. Maybe it will convince some of the sellers that they really are losing customers by not including a price. The poll #'s don't lie. So to me that is helping the board.

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This thread is just too much. "Filthy", beautiful name tag, your opinion on that pertaining to being equal to bid shilling, etc., is beyond stupid. I dont think there's a word for it. You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes....And Jesse, what exactly is this thread supposed to accomplish for the good of the board? Just asking....

I thought it would be interesting to see what the board as a whole thought about the issue. From my responses you know I don't like the practice, and see the issue come up frequently. With the discussion already going I figured why not take a poll and see what everyone thinks. Nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't necessarily think it would accomplish anything in terns of a rule change. If enough people thought the same way I do, which apparently about half do and a quarter don't, maybe it would encourage people to list prices for their cards.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I thought, based on the discussion, that it would make for an interesting poll question. I have made my opinion clear, but I certainly wouldn't compare those who lists cards without prices to those committing fraud in our hobby.

Thank you for at least that....

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

This was directed to Ben but I would like to answer. If it was a card I have to have and have been searching for I would probably ask. However I frequently buy cards I want necessarily searching for, and will be much less likely to inquire about one with no price listed.

An example is I will probably sell my PSA 7 red Cobb and down grade to a 4 to match my others. I didn't inquire about yours based on the discussion on your post and lack of price. Now I'm not saying you lost a sale, and we probably wouldn't have reached an agreement, but I do believe it prevents some people from inquiring on some cards they might have otherwise purchased.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This was directed to Ben but I would like to answer. If it was a card I have to have and have been searching for I would probably ask. However I frequently buy cards I want necessarily searching for, and will be much less likely to inquire about one with no price listed.

An example is I will probably sell my PSA 7 red Cobb and down grade to a 4 to match my others. I didn't inquire about yours based on the discussion on your post and lack of price. Now I'm not saying you lost a sale, and we probably wouldn't have reached an agreement, but I do believe it prevents some people from inquiring on some cards they might have otherwise purchased.

Unbelievable...At least you're honest...

[frankbmd]

I think the argument here can be summarized as follows:


An Ebola outbreak close by or a "dirty" bomb in your city is the moral equivalent of listing a card in BST without a price.


I don't think so, but that's just me. A corollary observation is that:


An Ebola outbreak creates strange bedfellows.

[Thromdog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

This. +1

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Ben, How am I losing customers? What poll numbers are we talking about precisely?...Are you going to honestly say that you won't inquire about a card that you really want, if a price is not listed?? I don't think so....

Because the same people voting no also say they pass on listing because there is no price.

I personally have never asked for a price of a item. If no price I just pass, several others in this thread have said the same thing.

For me I am usually not looking for specific cards and when looking through the BST listings buy thing that make me go "I want one of those".

If you are happy with what you are doing that is great and all that should matter to you. Happy selling the way you like.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Because the same people voting no also say they pass on listing because there is no price.

I personally have never asked for a price of a item. If no price I just pass, several others in this thread have said the same thing.

For me I am usually not looking for specific cards and when looking through the BST listings buy thing that make me go "I want one of those".

If you are happy with what you are doing that is great and all that should matter to you. Happy selling the way you like.

delete, I'm not going to make any other comments on this thread, thanks

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Unbelievable...At least you're honest...

I think it happens more often than you think. Sometimes I ask sometimes I don't and just move on. There are a few cards I have picked up on net54 because I liked the card and reached an agreement with the seller. I have found this is more difficult with those who do not list prices in my personal experiences.

[bnorth]

[CMIZ5290]

deleted....[QUOTE=bnorth;1524312]I have no idea, from reading all the replies I never seen a single post that described exactly what they passed on

[Peter_Spaeth]

I really don't see the big deal. If Kevin doesn't post a price, email or PM him and say hey Kevin what were you thinking price wise? If he refuses to answer and insists you give a price first and you don't want to, move on. Either way, no biggie.

[GoldenAge50s]

I have read all 75 posts in this thread & for the life of me, I don't know WHY!

[irv]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

That can work the other way though. An experienced and knowledgeable collector or seller should know what they need for a card and be able to list a price.

I hate just "Best Offer"

Tell me what you want, then "or best offer" if you want, or say firm, and if I think it's something that's reasonable and I can afford it then we'll talk and/or do business.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have no idea, from reading all the replies I never seen a single post that described exactly what they passed on.

Me personally I usually buy raw because it is what I prefer. If I do buy graded 99% of the time I crack them out. I have around 10-15 in slabs.

I have had some problems in the past with very rare and high graded cards that I posted a price on. Someone comes along interested in the card, but they have a trade that they think a lot more of than me. Can make for hard feelings. Having said that, most all of my cards are priced. This topic quite frankly has been a huge waste of my time when other things much more constructive could have been discussed....What is the huge deal anyway? I dont get it....

[JollyElm]

Why don't we instead make a rule banning all threads that are a monumental waste of time. If your biggest problem is you're crying because people don't place prices in their threads, it sounds to me like life is pretty good for you. Count your blessings and move on. What's next? Are you going to be upset if the photos and scans in the latest pickups thread doesn't include a wide enough variety of races and sexual orientations???? Geez.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This topic quite frankly has been a huge waste of my time when other things much more constructive could have been discussed....What is the huge deal anyway? I dont get it....

We'll all make a concerted effort to ensure that future topics are worthy of your time.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

your opinion is beyond stupid.

You have a solid 82 posts though, so I've been taking notes.

You have complained about this thread not being "productive" and a great waste of time, yet all you have added is half witted insults. You have a differing opinion than mine, and that's fine. A message boards main purpose is to discuss/debate issues at hand. And the results of this poll are a direct reflection of the collective opinions of the members who post here. And the results of this particular discussion speak loud and clear......even moreso, its also glaringly obvious that those who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. Much like a petulant child, being asked a question as to why....and all they can say...is BECAUSE! Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one. I would think that social skills, life experiences, level of intellect and self awareness would be a much better barometer of ones value to a message board.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Filthy

And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one.

That has always bugged me as well. It's like the more posts someone has, they more knowledgeable and respectable they become to other board members.

I don't get it. And it's not just here. It's even worse on CU.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I really don't see the big deal. If Kevin doesn't post a price, email or PM him and say hey Kevin what were you thinking price wise? If he refuses to answer and insists you give a price first and you don't want to, move on. Either way, no biggie.

As Ben and others have stated, there are many of us that don't even bother inquiring about an item when a price is not listed. You're right, it's not a big deal - it's just the point of the matter. I think if someone is serious about selling an item, then they would post a price. No price = not serious.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That has always bugged me as well. It's like the more posts someone has, they more knowledgeable and respectable they become to other board members.

I don't get it. And it's not just here. It's even worse on CU.

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable.

And, at least to me, he is.

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

Likewise, it seems when new members come to the board and share new ideas/opinions, they are overlooked because they are new and they couldn't possibly know more than the 'respected and knowledgeable" board members who've been here for years.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By that standard, Leon would appear knowledgeable and respectable.

Look in the mirror Peter.

There may be an exception to that rule.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

On the CU boards, there is a title under one's username such as member, senior member, collector, master collector, etc. That title is based on nothing more that your post count. What a joke?!?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Look in the mirror Peter.

There may be an exception to that rule.

You are near a milestone post yourself lad. Don't waste it on the usual obscure humor.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You are near a milestone post yourself lad. Don't waste it on the usual obscure humor.

I love Franks obscure humor. I have even asked for lessons a couple times but sadly he says NO.

[Oneofthree67]

Sellers option to list prices and you don't need to ship the items Priority Mail...

[RichardSimon]

Sellers should list prices.
You own it, you want to sell it, tell me how much you want.
You are not an amateur who does not really know what you have.
You are in the hobby, you know what you have and what is a fair price.
Don't play games, be a mensch and post your price. Don't make someone guess how much you want.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Filthy

You have complained about this thread not being "productive" and a great waste of time, yet all you have added is half witted insults. You have a differing opinion than mine, and that's fine. A message boards main purpose is to discuss/debate issues at hand. And the results of this poll are a direct reflection of the collective opinions of the members who post here. And the results of this particular discussion speak loud and clear......even moreso, its also glaringly obvious that those who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. Much like a petulant child, being asked a question as to why....and all they can say...is BECAUSE! Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.



And the opinion of a members post count, as it relates specifically to legitimacy of ones thoughts/opinions on this board is a greatly flawed one. I would think that social skills, life experiences, level of intellect and self awareness would be a much better barometer of ones value to a message board.

Do you write auction lot descriptions for a living?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Filthy

[T]hose who support your side of the argument, have only been able to verbalize their thoughts, by taking your approach. Lashing out, posting quick hitters, calling people stupid, without giving ANY legitimate reasoning as to why they believe so much in what they are discussing. . . . Yet, all of those in opposition to your beliefs have all laid out detailed and coherent explanations as to why they have the opinion that they do. That, in and of itself, speaks volumes.

Not at all true. Plenty of legitimate reasons have been offered by me and others in this thread. The oversimplification as "shady" or "dishonest" of a complicated discussion into the various credible motivations behind priceless sales offers is not defensible.

[JollyElm]

Does common sense ever come into play on these boards?? Ever??

I don't sell anything here, so I don't have a horse in the race as the saying goes. But why in hell would you force people to list sell prices? The boards are filled with threads saying something to the effect of "Can you believe how much the (enter specific card here) sold by (enter AH or ebay seller name here) went for last night???" And the prices realized are always way over the top. So if someone is looking to sell a rare card, they want to get as much as they possibly can for it, don't they?? Capitalism. So there has to be some leeway with people looking to sell their goods here. If you're interested in the card, send the user a PM and negotiate with him. But, if for some reason you're upset or offended by this like an entitled little kid, then ignore people who don't list prices. Common frickin' sense.

And let's say you're able to convince Leon to make a rule forcing everyone to list a selling price on the B/S/T. The first thing I would do if I decided to sell anything would be to list it like this:
For Sale: Bernie Carbo rookie card for sale. $1,000,000 or best offer.

I posted a price, didn't I? The rule was obeyed. Now what? Are you going to lobby Leon to force people to list 'reasonable' selling prices now? And which of you people is going to be the official arbiter of what a reasonable price is, huh????

Come on!!!!!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And, at least to me, he is.

But my point is that there are a lot of members here (and other boards too) that have been members for a log time and/or have high post counts and for some unknown reason that seems to equate to hobby knowledge / respect. I don't get that.

Likewise, it seems when new members come to the board and share new ideas/opinions, they are overlooked because they are new and they couldn't possibly know more than the 'respected and knowledgeable" board members who've been here for years.

Interesting thoughts.

When I joined a while back I was happy to see a few names that were familiar to me from a long time ago. Not people I knew, but people I knew of. I've generally been an under the radar sort of collector. Partly because that's who I am until I'm comfortable with people or a group, partly because of budget. Can't really be a well known big wheel when my typical show budget is around $200.

My introduction was "interesting" I mentioned that I had some cards, and the response was literally" yeah right" Until I posted scans then it was a cautious "welcome to the club" It may be odd to some, but I found that attitude comforting.

Now I'm marginally familiar with a lot more of the sort of collectors I like, people with some knowledge, sometimes a LOT of knowledge. I don't always agree with everyone about everything, and that's normal. There's even (gasp!) a few people that I rarely find much agreement with. But most - in fact nearly all - have enough thinking behind their opinions that I can respect those opinions even if I don't agree.

Someone with a lot of posts has hopefully shown enough of their thinking and likes/dislikes and expertise to have earned that sort of respect. Someone with a handful of posts just hasn't got enough track record, so for them it's more a matter of considering their opinions. There are of course exceptions, people whose intros are a nice look at their collecting interests and experiences, and/or are well known to several members so there's a bit of street cred automatically.

Steve B

[irv]

I stated, in my prior post, that I disliked "Best offer" only posts, but that, in no way shape or form, means I agree and think that all posts/ads on here should have prices listed.

I was just stating what I disliked and what I preferred, but seeing as it's a free country and people can do what they want, I am OK with that.

[bobbvc]

The less rules you have, the less rules get broken. I think we have enough rules around here. Of course I'm not a moderator on the board but someone asked for opinions so there you go.

[CMIZ5290]

For this thread to go this long is absolutely unbelievable! I mean really, Are you kidding? Just when you thought you saw it all, well......No price listed, go about your business. What is the mystery? If you are really interested, wouldn't you inquire about the card????