Value of Zeenut Card with Buck Barker Writing on Back

[leftygrove10]

I recently acquired a group of type cards. One of the cards in the group is a Zeenut (1937?) card with Buck Barker writing on the back. I have seen this on the board before. It must be running circles through people's collections on here. Does anyone have an idea of the value of this card? Obviously Buck Barker was a legend in the hobby. Thanks!

[Leon]

Even though many of us love those old writings, and they definitely add character to a card, they rarely add much value at all. Maybe on a low dollar card it adds a few dollars. Just my take on it.....

[philliesphan]

I'm not sure if [or why] the Buck Barker writing on the back of the card would add any value to the set. As a Zee-Nut collector myself, I would place no such premium on the writing.

The biggest value on this card is that it is from the relatively rare 1938 series. 1937 aren't too hard to find, but the final series of Zee-Nuts from 1938 aren't very common at all.

Now, if that example had a coupon attached....

[CobbSpikedMe]

I would pay a premium for the card if Barker had written his name on it. Just like I'd pay a premium for a Lionel Carter SGC card. That's just me though. I agree that for most this wouldn't add value.

Thanks,

AndyH

[oaks1912]

Buck's Zeenut collection was sold to Frank & Vivian Barning following his death. Around 1991, the collection was sold to me, through a broker, and the 3000 plus different Zeenuts that Buck accumulated were sorted out on my kitchen table. As I recall more than 60% of his cards contained the now famous Barker shorthand on the reverse, some in pen...most in pencil. In addition to player transaction records, most contained the year that Buck acquired the card along with the collector he acquired it from. At the time, there were a few advanced hobbyists that requested a 'type set' of Buck's different sources (which included Jim Horne, Dick Dobbins, John Spalding, Lou Chericoni, Jeff Burdick, Larry Moe, Paul Marchant and Bill Weiss). Today, I would think that a Burdick marked back would contain a premium, but the others do not command a premium, despite being formerly handled by some hobby legends from the past (Larry, Do you consider yourself a legend ?........ ) The illustrated card below came from Bill Weiss in 1973

[caramelcard]

I consider Larry to be a legend.

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

I consider Larry to be a legend.

+1

[camlov2]

I would love to see others, particularly if someone has one from Jim Horne.

[brianp-beme]

Being a generally lower condition collector, AND actually preferring my blank back cards to have some writing on them (you know, to spice up an otherwise dull surface), I have ended up with quite a few Buck Barker Zeenut cards. Like Mark mentioned, you do find quite a few of the hobby veterans and legends that Buck purchased his cards from and noted as such (the man was incredibly detail orientated). Besides the names Mark listed, I have in my collection ones from Lew Lipset, Frank Nagy, Bill Heitman, and even a Preston Orem originally picked up in 1958. They don't normally add much of a premium to the card, but are a cool reminder of how much research that this man did to identify all the mystery PCL players that only had their last name on the card (and which frequently was mispelled). Some of my favorite from the ones I have posted are the James Cagney caricature that Buck managed to utilize all the available space, and the 1925 Haughy card which he notes possibile last names that he researched at the Sporting News archives and found to be not a good match (my guess is this guy is still unidentified).

Brian

[irishdenny]

These cards are Brilliant! My take on these gentleman, They were so intrigued by the nature of the lost elements, that the little boys in themselves never grew uP! They may not be a dollar amount to enhance these pieces of history, However, If someone were to erase/alter them, I would feel it in the debts of my baseball soul...

Thanks for Scanning and posting them! I hope you don't mind, I've saved them for reference & I do hope that those who have more, will add to this thread! And that they won't mind me borrowing these timeless pieces of history either

[caramelcard]

Speaking about these and other collectors' markings, scribbles and stamps...

I've always thought these were very interesting for a number of different reasons. They definitely give you perspective on the hobby back in the day. It was about collecting and not about cash. Once in a while they might even shed light on the mysteries of the issue/player. Finally, in this case, the abundance of cards that have made it into our many different accumulations show how much work he put into his collection.

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Speaking about these and other collectors' markings, scribbles and stamps...

I've always thought these were very interesting for a number of different reasons. They definitely give you perspective on the hobby back in the day. It was about collecting and not about cash. Once in a while they might even shed light on the mysteries of the issue/player. Finally, in this case, the abundance of cards that have made it into our many different accumulations show how much work he put into his collection.

+1

[brianp-beme]

I love the fact that he documented his lengthy research right on the card itself, instead of in a notebook or on index cards. It certainly indicates a different perspective in the collecting world that has completely vanished.

Brian

[oaks1912]

Rob...You bring up a great point. Many of these notes , or scribbling (beyond Buck's collection) have helped to further identify some of the Zeenut players... and I'm sure with some of the other sets as well. Buck Barker and Don McPherson spent countless hours trying to identify all of the players within the Zeenut series. They were able to identify all but a few dozen (of the nearly 1450) players. Prior to Don's death, he gifted me all of his research. With the help of many baseball researchers, including Brian P, we have been able to cut that number to 4. These four players never appeared in a regulation PCL game and were likely photographed during spring training / tryouts. Its also possible that their names were misspelled, like so many others in this great PCL series.... I agree with Denny that the information / notes should not be erased in an attempt to get a higher number on the slab. Few Zeenut collectors store their cards in that manner however.......

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by oaks1912

Rob...You bring up a great point. Many of these notes , or scribbling (beyond Buck's collection) have helped to further identify some of the Zeenut players... and I'm sure with some of the other sets as well. Buck Barker and Don McPherson spent countless hours trying to identify all of the players within the Zeenut series. They were able to identify all but a few dozen (of the nearly 1450) players. Prior to Don's death, he gifted me all of his research. With the help of many baseball researchers, including Brian P, we have been able to cut that number to 4. These four players never appeared in a regulation PCL game and were likely photographed during spring training / tryouts. Its also possible that their names were misspelled, like so many others in this great PCL series.... I agree with Denny that the information / notes should not be erased in an attempt to get a higher number on the slab. Few Zeenut collectors store their cards in that manner however.......

Mark.... Thanks for all the great information! Could you please interpret the information on the back of my card at the top of this post so I can understand what Buck Barker was trying to document? I see "Weiss 73" written on the bottom left as you pointed out before.

[oaks1912]

Ok Brad, You asked for it... ..From the too much info file.... Starting at the second line from the top (We'll save the top line for last).... His first name is Pinckney... The 'P' is for pitcher..... Home is Tipton, California..... The next several lines relate to transactions (bought, sold, optioned, traded for, etc)... San Francisco April 1936, Muskogee June 6, 1936, San Francisco September 6.... Tacoma September 1937, Yakima July 7, 1937.... Free Agent June / 38.... Died Reedley, California 4/14/58.... Age 45..... Purchased from Bill Weiss in 1973.... Buck (incorrectly) thought it was a 1936 card (Its actually a 1937 card, photo taken during Spring Training as Mills did not play for San Francisco in 1937).... Top line (Portland) appears to be the handwriting of Norm McTeer, a very advanced PCL collector from the 30's-early 70's. McTeer's collection was sold/ broken down in the early 70's. Quite a bit of this collection contained writing on the front or back. Much like Barker's collection, McTeer's collection has scattered quite well throughout the hobby. Most advanced ZeeNut collections will include examples from both of these longtime collectors. Hope that you preserve the writing as it is a link to the hobby's pre-internet past.....

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by oaks1912

Ok Brad, You asked for it... ..From the too much info file.... Starting at the second line from the top (We'll save the top line for last).... His first name is Pinckney... The 'P' is for pitcher..... Home is Tipton, California..... The next several lines relate to transactions (bought, sold, optioned, traded for, etc)... San Francisco April 1936, Muskogee June 6, 1936, San Francisco September 6.... Tacoma September 1937, Yakima July 7, 1937.... Free Agent June / 38.... Died Reedley, California 4/14/58.... Age 45..... Purchased from Bill Weiss in 1973.... Buck (incorrectly) thought it was a 1936 card (Its actually a 1937 card, photo taken during Spring Training as Mills did not play for San Francisco in 1937).... Top line (Portland) appears to be the handwriting of Norm McTeer, a very advanced PCL collector from the 30's-early 70's. McTeer's collection was sold/ broken down in the early 70's. Quite a bit of this collection contained writing on the front or back. Much like Barker's collection, McTeer's collection has scattered quite well throughout the hobby. Most advanced ZeeNut collections will include examples from both of these longtime collectors. Hope that you preserve the writing as it is a link to the hobby's pre-internet past.....

Thanks, Mark.... That is fascinating! And don't worry... I won't erase the writing..... I have really enjoyed learning about this...

[okmaybent@aol.com]

If you ever come across Delongs with the year typed on the top front those were Buck Barker's Delongs.

[leftygrove10]

Originally Posted by okmaybent@aol.com

If you ever come across Delongs with the year typed on the top front those were Buck Barker's Delongs.

Interesting.... Even though the card below is not a Delong, do you suppose that Buck Barker typed the "A-1919" on the bottom of the card? There is some other writing there as well....

[AndrewJerome]

Great thread. A few of my Buck Barker Zs are below. I pick them up when I can, I certainly would rather have a Buck Barker back than a blank back. There is something cool about having a Zeenut that Buck Barker acquired from Nagy, Bray, Dobbins etc.

Mark, do you know what the large cursive (that appears to be) "BG" is on the back of Zs?

And yes, I will echo the sentiment that Larry is a legend!

Andrew

[oaks1912]

Andrew... The "BG" backed cards have been in circulation for over 30 years. I did not bring that collection into the hobby, but have seen the notations on cards from the late 10's to early 20's, including Zeenuts, E-120, E-121 and Henry Johnson cards (All cards marketed originally in the Bay Area). Based on what I've seen or owned, it must have contained a few thousand cards. The BG is most likely the initials of the original collector. Often times households which contained siblings that were close in age would result in each sibling writing their names or initials on the backs of the property (cards) to establish ownership.......... There are many other 'personalized' collections out there that you'll likely encounter over time.

[okmaybent@aol.com]

Originally Posted by leftygrove10

Interesting.... Even though the card below is not a Delong, do you suppose that Buck Barker typed the "A-1919" on the bottom of the card? There is some other writing there as well....

That is very similar to the Delongs I bought from Buck. It is certainly possible your card is from him. Buck gave me a discount for the typing but now that I think of it he didn't actually tell me he did it. Its possible he got the Delongs with the typing from another collector. Maybe your card and my Delongs originally came from the same source (either Buck or the "mad typist" collector.) Everything else I got from Buck was pretty clean except for the occassional light pencil notation on top back. Nothing else had typing.

[ElCabron]

Here's the text on the back of his Claxton. His notes were usually interesting and fairly comprehensive for such a small amount of text. This one has a nice little biography of Claxton, including "Colored - tried to pass as Indian." Also includes date and place of birth and death, as well as dates of PCL playing career. Personally, I like his notes and would rather have a Zeenut with his writing on it than one with a perfect blank back. I'm probably in the minority, though.

-Ryan

[philliesphan]

Reviving an old(er) thread here, but may I assume that this Zeenut is from Buck's collection, based upon the writing on the back?

[brianp-beme]

Both pen and pencil are products of Buck's scribbling.

Brian

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Here's the text on the back of his Claxton. His notes were usually interesting and fairly comprehensive for such a small amount of text. This one has a nice little biography of Claxton, including "Colored - tried to pass as Indian." Also includes date and place of birth and death, as well as dates of PCL playing career. Personally, I like his notes and would rather have a Zeenut with his writing on it than one with a perfect blank back. I'm probably in the minority, though.

-Ryan

JAW ON FLOOR!!!! Very well done by this recorder. Does anyone have an idea of what he meant by "REL 6/3/16". I can't find Claxton in Oakland after the doubleheader 5/28 until 1919. Damn those references.

On a not entirely unrelated note Claxton was also a semi-professional fighter, who fought under a couple names, as a welterweight "Kid Claxton" in March, and April of 1919 shortly before the Shasta Limiteds season began. And as middleweight 'Darkhorse Claxton" in Reno, Nevada March 1937. His confirmable record according to BoxRec.com is 1-1.

You share, I should do the same.

[h2oya311]

I'm not an expert, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night, but perhaps "rel" stands for "released"?

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I'm not an expert, and I did not stay at a holiday inn express last night, but perhaps "rel" stands for "released"?

Thank you for the appropriate sarcasm, and I always miss the obvious. I'm just soooo darn hopeful.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

I consider Larry to be a legend.

...and debonair to boot.