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  #1  
Old 01-04-2002, 10:05 PM
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Posted By: benge610

I think that had Mastro not pulled the item, upon receipt of new evidence, the tone of the Gallagher article would be dead on. How many times do we see on eBay similar circumstances and the seller proceeds "full steam ahead". Mistakes can happen to anyone, and to me it is just as important what you do about it after it is realized or shown to you. Funny..... I didn't interpret the Mastro response as "terse", just a proper business response to a business question. Upon digesting the whole topic, I do agree that the article seems slanted by a writer who possibly isn't heavily experienced in the sports memorabilia auction market. While I don't think Mastro should necessarily be praised in this matter, doing the right thing in the end (in my opinion) tends to uphold their credibility/reputation. Just my rambling opinion.

It's good to be back to see you all; I now have a computer of my own (wife bought a new one); of course the computer of I speak is the one she "crashed and burned" with full hard drive failure. I picked it up off the scrap heap a couple of months ago and have it running as good as new..... almost.

Ben.

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  #2  
Old 01-04-2002, 10:28 PM
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Posted By: Jay Miller

I disagree. I think this is really bad as it brings into question the Mastro authentication process. If they can't get it right on something as recent as this how can you trust the process on something decades old?

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  #3  
Old 01-04-2002, 11:03 PM
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Posted By: David

It seems to me that the only way we can decide who is correct-- MastroNet versus the article's author-- is if one of us finds pictures or video of the April 2nd Oakland Versus Seattle game and sees which brand of bat Ichiro was using, Mizuno of Lousville Slugger. As this was a big game, I would assume there are many pictures available.

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  #4  
Old 01-05-2002, 01:10 AM
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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

Mastro admits the bat was bogus. I agree with another response, which says that the tone of the article would have been correct if Mastro hadn't pulled the bat.

The reality is that they did pull the bat, so the tone is absolutely not correct.

bruce

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  #5  
Old 01-05-2002, 01:21 AM
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Posted By: David

If MastroNet admits it was a mistake and pulled the bat from the auction, I am satisfied. Making a mistake once in a while shouldn't be an issue, as we all make mistakes. The issue isn't whether or not we make mistakes, but how we deal with them when they arrise.

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  #6  
Old 01-05-2002, 09:04 AM
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Posted By: petecld

Mastro has made a big feature of their authentication process ecpecially in regard to baseball bats. If I am remembering correctly Mastronet even put out a book on bat authentication. They should have known this was fake.

If ONE of their authenticators got it wrong I can understand the mistake but the bat was given the OK by three plus, I assume, Bill himself. Considering the money involved on these items I don't think those are good odds. When some fan does more research - locating a tape - than an auction that stands to make thousands of dollars I'm sorry, that is a sad statement about the auction house.

Pulling the bat from the auction is the LEAST they should have done. The response the writer received wasn't professional in any way. if someone was calling to write an article that put Mastronet in a good light I'm sure that phone call would have been answered, returned and all the details the writer could stomach would have been forthcoming.

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  #7  
Old 01-05-2002, 09:13 AM
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Posted By: Elliot 

Here's an article that I thought people might find interesting (although, not vintage). I don't think the writer treated MastroNet fairly.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getsp.pl5?sp20020104jg.htm

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  #8  
Old 01-05-2002, 09:40 AM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I'd be surprised if he would knowlingly put forward a fake bat for only $7,500.Julie

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  #9  
Old 01-05-2002, 01:00 PM
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Posted By: MW

Oh please, please, please send me your next auction catalog. Just show me your butt and point out the spot you want me to kiss

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  #10  
Old 01-05-2002, 05:53 PM
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Posted By: MW

And to think I had any doubts about Babe Ruth/Lou Gehrig/Ty Cobb signed memorabilia and any other game-used bats or equipment. By the way, is there now going to be a supplement (or disclaimer) to the Mastro game-used bat price guide? Well, at least if I obtain three experts’ opinions regarding a Bob Feller signed baseball, I’ll still feel pretty secure about its authenticity.

Just what does the word "provenance" mean anyhow?

a) An educated guess
b) The best guess possible given auction deadlines
c) A gut feeling
d) A genuine good-will feeling of trust toward consignors of expensive or lucrative memorabilia
e) Good old fashioned luck
f) "Hey, it looks good from where I’m sitting!"
g) None of the above
h) All of the above

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  #11  
Old 01-05-2002, 06:08 PM
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Posted By: petecld

I DO . . .
agree with you in that how a person handles a mistake is a sign of their character.

I DON'T. . .
agree with you that a "once in a while" attitude is acceptable for a business like Mastronet. A mistake like this from an average colelctor - YES. From a business that prides itself on their authentication process so much so they write a book on it which makes you will feel better bidding thousands, maybe tens of thousands on a item - NO.

What makes this a red flag for me is that this item is too recent a piece and too easily researched to make such a huge mistake.

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  #12  
Old 01-05-2002, 07:12 PM
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Posted By: David

I would still like to see a picture(s) of the April 2nd game. If Ichiro used a Mizuno bat, I would be the first to say they made a bonehead, embarassing mistake.

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  #13  
Old 01-05-2002, 11:57 PM
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Posted By: MW

Here's the link to the original Mastro FSA auction listing for the Ichiro "opening night" bat:

http://catalog.mastronet.com/catalog_lot_information.cfm?lot=19621

(1) If Mastro Fine Sports Auctions can’t remember the last time a verifiable "first at-bat" bat of a superstar of Ichiro’s magnitude has come up for auction, then it must be a pretty special occasion. Hopefully, one that is important enough to make sure all the puzzle pieces fit. Well, actually just one puzzle piece -- the one indicating the player in question actually USED the bat.

(2) In its description of Ichiro’s first game, the only detail left out is how much dirt Ichiro had on his uniform when he was done playing. If a videotape of the game was not viewed by Mastro FSA before this auction lot was offered, then how were all the details composed? From a boxscore?

(3) According to the description of Ichiro’s "first" bat by Mastro FSA, it appears that both the bat AND the signature were authenticated. Was Mastro FSA wrong on both accounts or was Ichiro confused as he signed the wrong bat. Was the word "gamer" written by someone other than Ichiro? Was the rest of the notation (Oakland A’s O.Night) added after or before Ichiro signed the bat? Could Ichiro both read and write English at the beginning of the season? Is this the standard way "game" bats are marked? Is all the writing on the bat a complete forgery? If so, who’s the culprit? Could the same thing have been done with a Mizuno bat that WASN’T used on opening night? Now I’m confused too.

(4) Just who is this mysterious "clubhouse" member? Has he consigned or delivered or corroborated stories for other auction memorabilia?

(5) What does the word "impeccable" mean? Does it mean the same thing every time Mastro FSA uses it?

(6) Just whose bat is it? Does anyone on the Mariners use a 34", 30 oz. TPX M110 Louisville Slugger Pro Stock model bat? Maybe by the end of the season, Ichiro really was out of Mizuno bats and had to use a Louisville Slugger instead. Could it be that this was the bat that Ichiro used for his very last (242nd) hit of the season? Could be! I smell a future auction lot.

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  #14  
Old 01-05-2002, 11:59 PM
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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

Do you think they have a tape of the game handy? I don't. This was lot 1038 out of 2355. I can believe that they can authenticate the sigs, and they almost certainly went that far. I think that with regard to provenance they probably dealt with someone that they've dealt with before, and they believed the guy.

I don't see why this is a big deal, and I particularly don't understand MW's comments about kissing anatomy parts.

bruce

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  #15  
Old 01-06-2002, 12:07 AM
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Posted By: MW

<< ...and I particularly don't understand MW's comments about kissing anatomy parts. >>

Good call! I just re-read what I wrote and now I don't understand it either. Rats!

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  #16  
Old 01-06-2002, 12:57 AM
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Posted By: David

It's cold in Wisconsin, and you have to keep your lips warm somehow.

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  #17  
Old 01-06-2002, 01:19 AM
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Posted By: MW

Fingers, not lips

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  #18  
Old 01-06-2002, 06:13 AM
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Posted By: runscott

But it's interesting since it's yet another area I don't know much about (how auction houses verify authenticity). Also, I disagree with you in that I don't think it's too much to check the video (or to go to the trouble to locate it) - most of the items don't require that much work to authenticate, but a signed one-of-a-kind bat does and the pay-off stands to be VERY high, so the extra effort should be made (in my opinion).

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Old 01-06-2002, 09:29 AM
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Posted By: benge610

I do..

agree, Pete and point very well taken: the item in question is so "current" for provenance purposes as compared to vintage items discussed around these boards and found at auctions; authentication should have been a breeze by comparison.

I'm just so damn glad to be around the vintage talk again, that I posted expressing opinions about a position that I don't necessarily consider a strong one. It's just nice to bat the ball around a bit again!

Thanks for all of your comments, everyone.

Ben.

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  #20  
Old 01-06-2002, 09:48 AM
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Posted By: runscott

how does Mastro explain the mistake? What procedures did these three authenticators use to decide the bat was really used in Ichiro's first two at bats? Before I signed a letter authenticating something like this, I would have my ducks lined up - the obvious starting point would be reviewing a tape of the at bats. Somethings's a little weird here.

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  #21  
Old 01-06-2002, 12:40 PM
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Posted By: David

Michael, I went to the UW, so more than once I froze my patootie walking along Lake Mendota.

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  #22  
Old 01-06-2002, 03:13 PM
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Posted By: Charlie

I'd like for someone from Mastro to explain what happened right here. No doubt at least somebody is reading the comments posted.

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  #23  
Old 01-06-2002, 04:14 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

Amen!

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  #24  
Old 01-06-2002, 05:58 PM
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Posted By: David

Hello, last night someone at MastroNet contacted me and explained the situtation. He said that Ichiro used a Mizuno bat during the game. He freely admited that they made a dumb mistake that they learned from. MastroNet was forthcoming, at least to me, and I accept their explanation. I understand and accept that others may interpret things differently than I, but I am not stressed by the situation.

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  #25  
Old 01-06-2002, 06:49 PM
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Posted By: MW

Objective: Authentication of Ichiro’s first game bat.

Step 1: Make phone call and obtain videotape of Mariners’ opening night game for 2001 season.
Step 2: Watch videotape.
Step 3: Compare bat to one in videotape in order to make a positive identification.
Step 4: Authenticate autograph and inscription on bat.
Step 5: Put bat in auction.

This isn’t just about the Ichiro bat. If Mastro Fine Sports Auctions is not willing to do some basic work to properly authenticate a bat from this last baseball season -- one that could have potentially sold for $25,000 to $50,000 -- then what have they been doing with all of their other auction lots? There appears to be a flawed methodology here. If they’re out in left field on the authentication of newer stuff, is there reason to believe that they’re anywhere in the ballpark on some of the much more involved and more complex vintage material????

The comparison of MastroNet to Pete Rose (with respect to selling memorabilia) in the Japan Times article was quite ridiculous. I also thought the “up to 75% of memorabilia is not authentic” quotation was contextually inaccurate since it applied to a series of FBI stings and not auction sales. On the issue of the Ichiro bat, however, Jack Gallagher (the author), was not unfair.

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  #26  
Old 01-08-2002, 12:44 PM
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Posted By: MW

Mike --

Any thoughts on this situation and the authentication process of both the inscription and the bat?

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  #27  
Old 01-08-2002, 01:41 PM
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Posted By: leon

Mastonet had deadlines to meet and put the bat into the catalogue on someone else's word. They had corroborating provenance but it was the wrong evidence. When they got the video of the game it was too late and what was done was done. They immediately pulled the bat from the bidding. They have learned from their mistake. I think we should get over it unless there is someone here that has not made a mistake. Yes, they are experts and should not have made this mistake. They did. How many hundreds of cards are there encapsulated by the major graders that are tainted? To me it is the same as sending a card in. Who do you trust the most? I still stand behind the Mastro guys. Since I do not collect memorabilia I don't have to worry about COA's and LOA's anyway........best regards all

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  #28  
Old 01-08-2002, 02:54 PM
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Posted By: MW

Leon –

Since when is a deadline a valid excuse for authenticating something which is not authentic? I sure hope MastroNet didn’t have any pressing deadlines in the past when they were authenticating Ruth and Gehrig autographed baseballs or Ruth game bats.

Also, I’m not sure you read the description. There is a difference between “corroborating provenance” (as you put it) and the ACTUAL description which reads, “Its documented provenance is impeccable.” I guess in some cases “corroborating provenance” COULD be impeccable, but without viewing a videotape of the game, you just wouldn’t know, would you?

Tainted cards that are encapsulated? Which grading service are you referring to? MastroNet makes the claim on its website that, “We offer only the finest and highest quality sports memorabilia and with our network of leading authorities, we are able to stand behind the authenticity of all the items we offer." To the best of my knowledge, there are only two or three grading services which make a similar claim for graded cards. If you are referring to the grading company I think you are, you may very well be right. By the way –- does MastroNet use this grading service?

And how about Ichiro? All the news reports I have read about him indicate that he possesses only a very limited understanding of English. So what about the autograph and inscriptions on the bat? (pictured below) Weren’t they authenticated too? Obviously, one did not have to watch a videotape to do that, and yet MastroNet came to the same conclusion – the autograph and inscription were as authentic as the bat itself. Ichiro may have signed his name and uniform number, but was he capable of writing anything beyond that?

What's going on here?

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  #29  
Old 01-08-2002, 03:38 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

the process of signing in, let alone registering, drives me bats, so I don't blame him for phoning.

Julie

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  #30  
Old 01-08-2002, 07:21 PM
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Posted By: leon

Hey MW,
There is no excuse for authenticating something that is not truly authentic. Time frame is irrelevant. With that being said they made a mistake by relying on someone's other than their own judgement BEFORE they had the last, and most important piece of information. They did have a deadline to meet. They made a mistake. Shame on them...... If I feel you have a card priced too high do I think ALL OF THEM ARE?... NO. Could the Mastro folks make another mistake? Of course, but your using this isolated issue to try to tarnish them seems a bit premature otherwise. Do you know of problems with other things? IF so, please point them out.

They used the term "impeccable" based on 2 pieces of information but not the vitally important one. I went over this in the first paragraph. They made a mistake.

Pick the top 3 grading companies and my amateur guess is each of them would have quite a few problem cards they have graded. THAT IS ONLY MY OPINION. As they all have graded 10's of 1000's I would think that is a fair statement though. Mastronet uses PSA almost, if not, completely exclusively. That is their call but it would not be mine. PSA is 2nd best in my opinion. I prefer SGC. (I collect only vintage remember)

I have no information about the signature but would think they should have checked that also.
best regards

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  #31  
Old 01-08-2002, 07:37 PM
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Posted By: Mike Williams

Since you asked, here's my take: Mistakes happen! They happen at MastroNet, SGC, PSA and if I'm a betting man....to everyone in this hobby at one time or another.

I think that since the folks at MastroNet is so highly regarded, their mistake(s) are magnified. Having said that, because MastroNet is MastroNet, they MUST do everything possible to authenticate an item....especially in this situation with the game being televised. While I fault them for not going "above and beyond" on the authentication of the bat, I fault them even more for their press related response. Will I still buy from MastroNet....sure. Do I think they dropped the ball on this one....yep. Take care and Happy New Year to you.

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  #32  
Old 01-08-2002, 07:41 PM
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Posted By: MW

Leon,

Your comparison between authentication of memorabilia and grading of cards is not a good one. Grading, no matter how well defined the parameters are, always involves a certain amount of subjectivity. Authentication, in this particular case, does not. Either the bat is authentic or it's not. Perhaps a comparison of authentication (but not wholesale grading) of cards to authentication of memorabilia would have been more meaningful.

Although, come to think of it, a comparison of a trimmed or altered card to the autograph and inscription on this bat might very well be ideal, since both were done in an effort to deceive the collector and inflate the value. I can't write the word "gamer" in Japanese and I'm willing to bet Ichiro couldn't write it in English at the beginning of the season.

Try not to think only about the bogus Ichiro bat...think about the methodology. It's not the mistake, it's the manner in which it was made that's important here.

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  #33  
Old 01-08-2002, 08:08 PM
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Posted By: MW

Mike,

Some very good points!

What do you think about the claim by MastroNet that Ichiro both signed and inscribed the bat? I don't know about you, but I think even a casual observer would surely realize that Ichiro just didn't have the English writing skills to make this possible.

Forget about the videotape, just use common sense. If I had only spent a couple of months in Japan and had little or no prior knowledge of their language, would I be able to write my name and pen an inscription that read, "gamer" and then "Yomiuri Giants" and finally "O.Night" -- ALL IN JAPANESE???

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  #34  
Old 01-08-2002, 10:04 PM
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Posted By: Plastic Dog

then again, my Kanji changed over time in Japan as Geisha girls continually hounded me to autograph their shirts while I tipped back Sapporos and ate rice noodles while riding in my private sleeping car aboard a luxury bullet train and later while skiing on the northern island of Hokaido on my private mountain while listening to a CD of cool jazz.

Ya right, like anyone's gonna believe I listen to jazz.

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  #35  
Old 01-08-2002, 10:11 PM
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Posted By: MW

GO CUBS!

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  #36  
Old 01-09-2002, 09:03 AM
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Posted By: MW

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Old 01-09-2002, 09:35 AM
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Posted By: Elliot

Although there does appear to be a significant difference. BTW stop agreeing with Pete--I don't want the Cubs to win the world series.

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  #38  
Old 01-09-2002, 09:39 AM
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Posted By: vorthian

<< This isn’t just about the Ichiro bat. If Mastro Fine Sports Auctions is not willing to do some basic work to properly authenticate a bat from this last baseball season -- one that could have potentially sold for $25,000 to $50,000 -- then what have they been doing with all of their other auction lots? There appears to be a flawed methodology here. If they’re out in left field on the authentication of newer stuff, is there reason to believe that they’re anywhere in the ballpark on some of the much more involved and more complex vintage material???? >>

You know, I've always been perplexed when certain descriptions were "modified" because something was found out (ie: trimmed) AFTER the auction started. More people will speculate and guess than if it was noted in the first place, w/o a modification.

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  #39  
Old 01-09-2002, 01:30 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

even to someone who rarely collects autographs--the one on the bat is sooo different.

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  #40  
Old 01-09-2002, 03:44 PM
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Posted By: petecld

What?. . . . . Why?. . . . . Don't say that.

You want the Cubs to win - unless you're a Red Sox fan - you deserve a series title too.

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